Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[GeoffP]

Are you saying those 9 people were killed for allegedly singing allegedly inappropriate songs?

I don't know. Bells, is this what you're saying?

 

[Alien Cockroach]

And where have I said this? Do you have a link?

Your concern for the Palestinians is pretentious and shrill, and I accuse you of doing it expressly to drive a hidden agenda. I think that you are a deeply closeted anti-semite. I doubt you even admit it to yourself.

I actually support neither. Why? Because of the politics that caused them to come into existence and what they are now is not what they should be.

Personally, I am somewhat optimistic about Fatah. Although they are far from perfect, I can see them developing a secure state within the next decade IF we strenuously support and fund them in doing so. As far as other groups in the general region are concerned, I have speculated about the potential of Hezbollah.

So settlers who kick people out of their homes to move in is what exactly?

Therefore you have chosen to deal with this by getting people angry at Israel and "the Jews." You seem to think that all of the Jews in Israel are "settlers." It doesn't seem to make a difference to you if they are third-generation.

Look at how much land Palestinians have left now. They are being squeezed into ghettos. Do you think that is a fair deal? And you accuse me of hatred?

The Arabic families in question should seek reparations from the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordon, which did not have the right to sell the land in question to them. Jordon's annexation of West Bank was illegal, and it was only recognized by the governments of Britain and Pakistan. This has created part of the problem.

On the other hand, I disagree with the eviction of second- or third-generation Arabs from these properties. If the families are established there and live in peace with their neighbors, then they should be left unmolested.

As long as people like you keep spouting venom over the issue, though, Israel will not reform. If they feel that they are under attack, then they will only swing farther and farther to the political right.

My beef with you is that, instead of supporting reforms in Israel, instead of invoking support for Kadima or Labor, you have been adding kindling to the fire.

People like you created Netanyahu. I resent his lot and their attitude as much as you do. I just hold you partially to blame for them.

My aunt is Jewish and survived the concentration camps as a small child. She does not march to the same beat of the drum that forces people from their homes. Now, is she an anti-semite for not supporting the Israeli Government's policies?

That sounds like "I have friends who are black."

When you spout anti-semitic propaganda on a publicly accessible forum, that makes you an anti-semite and a hate-monger, no matter how you go about equivocating over it. It doesn't matter if you lack the gumption to come clean about your real views.

Your aunt's background is irrelevant. Even if you were Jewish and lived year-round in Tel Aviv, you are still endangering other people's lives if you are spouting inflammatory tripe where other people can see it. Tone it down, and try focusing on solutions instead of yapping about the "Israeli settlers" as if that's going to solve something.

Why can't we try empowering political camps in Israel who might put an end to these evictions you are so concerned about? Or perhaps you could try investigating the details behind the court cases that lead to the evictions.

Why are all Palestinians, even small school children, treated like terrorists at road blocks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_...sraeli–Palestinian_conflict#Incidents_in_2007

And you dare accuse me of dehumanising people?

Yes, I do.

"Arabic squatter" and "Jewish settler" both have the same meaning: "them."

That the actions of Israel's Government (past and present) are so fucking familiar does not disturb you at all?

The Labor government was actually more than accomodating. Kadima, to a lesser extent, also endeavored to establish better relations with the Palestinians. They would value your support. Even if you don't agree with the policies of Kadima, they would still be an improvement over Netanyahu's Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu coalition.

Any Government, regardless of their religion, who commits these kinds of acts is also committing gross acts against basic, fundamental human rights. It was so in South Africa. It was so in Rwanda in the lead up to the genocide. It was so when the Nazi's did it to the Jews and when the Turks did it to the Armenians before those genocides. It was so in the Balkans and it is so in Israel and in Sudan.

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law:

Look, by attacking Israel in general instead of the factions that are responsible for most of the problems, you are putting the Israeli voting population on the defensive, which swings their politics right. What I favor is trying to revitalize parties in Israel who favor more peaceful relations with the Muslim world.

The Israeli right-wing is the same group of people that is responsible for the evictions you are so concerned about. If you attack Israel over their behavior, you are making the Israelis more inclined to vote for them. You saw the same thing happen when Americans were attacked over the policies of George W. Bush: when you put a country on the defensive, you always empower the most rabidly nationalistic, right-wing factions of that country's government. I think that Israel is a great culture, and I hope earnestly that they can make peace with their Arabic neighbors and their Palestinian minority.

If that makes me an anti-semite, then fine.

Okay, then what do you think led to you having such a suspicious, resentful attitude toward the Jewish people? One thing that I have never understood is the unreasoning paranoia that seems to be associated with European anti-semitism.

Where have I said that Israelis are not actual people.

The only way you ever seem to refer to them is "Jewish settlers" or "The Israeli government." You never seem to specify any of the particular individuals or factions who may be responsible for the problems you are trying to point out.

What can I say to you at this point? Oh yes.. Suck it up Princess.

I am a guy, you ridiculous person.

 

[GeoffP]

Oh, just stop, you other me. Bells is on to us!

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't know. Bells, is this what you're saying?

I don't know what Bells is saying but you sound like this:

Aunt Sally asked Huck why the steamboat took so long getting there.

Huck said, “We blowed a cylinder-head.”

“Good gracious anybody hurt?”

“No’m killed a nigger.”

“Well it’s lucky; because sometimes people do get hurt”

 

[hypewaders]

Let's all try and avoid sounding like Huck Finn, or anyone from a more primitive time and place than SciForums.

 

[S.A.M.]

but...they were singing* rude songs!!!

which is why 9 of them are dead [not allegedly, very much REALLY dead, irrevocably]







*as alleged by the hasbara industry

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The only way you ever seem to refer to them is "Jewish settlers" or "The Israeli government." You never seem to specify any of the particular individuals or factions who may be responsible for the problems you are trying to point out.

No its not. She also refers to them as a 'protected species'

 

[krazedkat]

Bullshit, protected species. Israel shouldn't exist, it is against god's wishes, the word says we should not own a state. It should be Palestine, as it was many a time before. This comes from me, a Jew.

 

[GeoffP]

I don't know what Bells is saying

(It's not the first person on the forum you haven't understood, Sam. Don't feel bad.)

 

[quadraphonics]

Your concern for the Palestinians is pretentious and shrill, and I accuse you of doing it expressly to drive a hidden agenda. I think that you are a deeply closeted anti-semite. I doubt you even admit it to yourself.

Typical Imperialist Mossad hasbara. Any questioning of The Righteous Resistance is an overt Zionist ploy to murder, rape and steal.

Personally, I am somewhat optimistic about Fatah. Although they are far from perfect, I can see them developing a secure state within the next decade IF we strenuously support and fund them in doing so.

Fatah are shills for Imperialism, happy to sell out Palestine for the chance to suck at the teat of Racist Hegemony by undermining The Resistance.

Therefore you have chosen to deal with this by getting people angry at Israel and "the Jews." You seem to think that all of the Jews in Israel are "settlers." It doesn't seem to make a difference to you if they are third-generation.

All of Israel is a military occupation and all Jews are racist invaders. No moral person would ever inhabit such a state, and the only impediment to the immediate attainment of total World Wide Justice is insufficient outrage on the parts of anonymous message board posters. By resisting such, you are literally committing genocide and will surely go to hell.

As long as people like you keep spouting venom over the issue, though, Israel will not reform. If they feel that they are under attack, then they will only swing farther and farther to the political right.

Attack is the only just option in the face of an onsalught of Racist Imperialism, and the sooner Israel reveals its true face of Genocidal Militarism to the world the sooner Victory for Justice will be at hand.

My beef with you is that, instead of supporting reforms in Israel, instead of invoking support for Kadima or Labor, you have been adding kindling to the fire.

The indefensible cannot be reformed - it must be undone in the righteous fires of Justice. There is no compromise with Evil.

Your aunt's background is irrelevant. Even if you were Jewish and lived year-round in Tel Aviv, you are still endangering other people's lives if you are spouting inflammatory tripe where other people can see it. Tone it down, and try focusing on solutions instead of yapping about the "Israeli settlers" as if that's going to solve something.

It's people like you who are not just endangering lives but actually literally, directly murdering innocent Palestinian newborns by interfering with the tide of Just Righteousness, which is The One Path to Final Victory. I don't know how you can possibly sleep at night with the blood of all those innocent children on your hands.

Why can't we try empowering political camps in Israel who might put an end to these evictions you are so concerned about?

All political camps in Israel are fundamentally dedicated to the Evil Zionist Nazi program, and so compromise cannot be brooked. Israel must be judged and destroyed, in the name of Justice.

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law:

Godwin's law is just another tool of Imperialist Hegemony, used to evade the blatant way in which the Zionist Brutality has exceeded Hitler's wildest fantasies.

Look, by attacking Israel in general instead of the factions that are responsible for most of the problems, you are putting the Israeli voting population on the defensive, which swings their politics right.

The Zionist Entity is fundamentally committed to the pursuit of evil, and so no rebalancing of its internal politics is relevant - it must be defeated and destroyed, entirely, in the name of Morality.

The Israeli right-wing is the same group of people that is responsible for the evictions you are so concerned about. If you attack Israel over their behavior, you are making the Israelis more inclined to vote for them. You saw the same thing happen when Americans were attacked over the policies of George W. Bush: when you put a country on the defensive, you always empower the most rabidly nationalistic, right-wing factions of that country's government.

If that hastens the Final Conflict, and so the arrival of Justice, then so much the better. The sooner that happens, the sooner Palestine can breath free from the bullets and dungeons of Zionist Gestapo.

I think that Israel is a great culture,

You, sir, are worse than Hitler.

and I hope earnestly that they can make peace with their Arabic neighbors and their Palestinian minority.

No self-respecting Arab would ever compromise and embrace the evil Jews. Only puppets of the American Empire and other such Traitors to Morality would even contemplate such a betrayal of Justice.

Okay, then what do you think led to you having such a suspicious, resentful attitude toward the Jewish people?

The long, clear history of Jews being essentially evil and untrustworthy, obviously. Haven't you even read The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

The only way you ever seem to refer to them is "Jewish settlers" or "The Israeli government." You never seem to specify any of the particular individuals or factions who may be responsible for the problems you are trying to point out.

All Israelis are responsible for the fundamentally evil nature of their nationality, just as all Jews are responsible for the fundamentally evil nature of their race. To pick and choose only serves to excuse the inexcuseable and prolong the suffering of Palestinian newborns under the jackboots of IDF stormtroopers. If eating live babies is the sort of thing you're okay with, then go ahead with your CIA Imperialist hasbara. The Righteous will never Compromise, and on the Day of Moral Justice you will be laid low for your crimes.

 

[krazedkat]

quadraphonics, Zionists aren't true Jews -.-.

 

[spidergoat]

quadraphonics, Zionists aren't true Jews -.-.

It's no one's place except Jews to say what is or isn't a Jew.

 

[krazedkat]

That'll be why I said it :\.

 

[GeoffP]

but...they were singing* rude songs!!!

Yes: the Khaybar chant as "just a song" does seem about par for you, does it not?

 

[Bells]

Your concern for the Palestinians is pretentious and shrill, and I accuse you of doing it expressly to drive a hidden agenda. I think that you are a deeply closeted anti-semite. I doubt you even admit it to yourself.

Why is it that supporters of the Israeli Government and policies spout "anti-semitism" at even a hint of criticism?

But tell, what do you think my agenda is? I await with bated breath.

If I am an anti-semite, then I am also anti French, American, Australia, and any other Government that I have criticised in the past in various countries. I guess I am just anti-human?

Personally, I am somewhat optimistic about Fatah. Although they are far from perfect, I can see them developing a secure state within the next decade IF we strenuously support and fund them in doing so. As far as other groups in the general region are concerned, I have speculated about the potential of Hezbollah.

Neither is good. Hezbollah would never be accepted at the bargaining table. All are mostly interested in themselves first and foremost.

Therefore you have chosen to deal with this by getting people angry at Israel and "the Jews." You seem to think that all of the Jews in Israel are "settlers." It doesn't seem to make a difference to you if they are third-generation.

I would have assumed that my posts were clear. That criticisms levelled at "Israel" were levelled at the Government.

Not all Jews in Israel are settlers. Unfortunately, some Jews in Israel are viewed as being lesser than others. Which is unfortunate. When a court has to force integration of Jews and over 100,000 men turn up in protest, there is something severely wrong. When local municipalities can destroy Palestinian homes and evict them to build a tourist park, there is something wrong. That kind of mentality is the problem.

The Arabic families in question should seek reparations from the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordon, which did not have the right to sell the land in question to them. Jordon's annexation of West Bank was illegal, and it was only recognized by the governments of Britain and Pakistan. This has created part of the problem.

On the other hand, I disagree with the eviction of second- or third-generation Arabs from these properties. If the families are established there and live in peace with their neighbors, then they should be left unmolested.

Ah, so we are in agreement then?

As long as people like you keep spouting venom over the issue, though, Israel will not reform. If they feel that they are under attack, then they will only swing farther and farther to the political right.

Quite the contrary. If the world puts pressure on Israel to adopt more humane practices, change can follow. There is a vast amount of internal pressure from the left to push for change in policy that is driving the country into not only international disrepute, but also down a path no country wants to go down. The political right, in Israel, will always have a strong voice, simply because of the fear of Israelis. As long as any criticism is called anti-semitism, then there will always be a problem. That is the mindset. I mean look at you? You're calling me an anti-semite because I criticise Israel's policies in the region.

Israel, at the moment, is the darling child of the world. It can do no wrong. It will be excused and it won't be punished, like we would punish other states that implements laws that discriminate and divide. It will face no sanctions regardless of how many Palestinians die. Lucy made a nice little troll of how I view Israel as a protected species. That is why Israel is a protected species. It is protected by the West out of fear of being accused of being anti-semitic. Because any criticism is met with an accusation of anti-semitism. And that is because the right in Israel, is everywhere. The last good leader Israel had was assassinated tragically. Rabin was the man who wanted to push for a solution and for that, he was killed. What he has done has been undone. And that is the tragedy of this whole thing.

I mean look on this forum? Any criticism of removing people from their homes is met with anti-semitism.

So tell me, how are we meant to criticise Israel? Or are we simply not meant to? Pat it on it's head and send it on its merry way?

My beef with you is that, instead of supporting reforms in Israel, instead of invoking support for Kadima or Labor, you have been adding kindling to the fire.

Oh, I strongly support any reform in Israel. My criticism is levelled squarely at the right and its policies that see us where we are today. I would have assumed that was quite clear. I support people like Braverman who at least, recognises the inequality within the population.

But it seems any criticism from the outside is deemed anti-semitism.

People like you created Netanyahu. I resent his lot and their attitude as much as you do. I just hold you partially to blame for them.

People like me?

Pray tell, who are people like me? People who criticises the regime for its external and internal policies?

That sounds like "I have friends who are black."

When you spout anti-semitic propaganda on a publicly accessible forum, that makes you an anti-semite and a hate-monger, no matter how you go about equivocating over it. It doesn't matter if you lack the gumption to come clean about your real views.

So criticising the right, who you also "apparently" disagree with is anti-semitism and doing so is spreading anti-semitic propaganda? Pray tell, how so? I am a hate-monger for voicing my discontent with something you supposedly agree with? But you are not an anti-semitic because you shut up and like Geoff, wring your hands?

Your aunt's background is irrelevant. Even if you were Jewish and lived year-round in Tel Aviv, you are still endangering other people's lives if you are spouting inflammatory tripe where other people can see it. Tone it down, and try focusing on solutions instead of yapping about the "Israeli settlers" as if that's going to solve something.

You mean shut up and say nothing, not criticise or comment, because any criticism of their policy is anti-semitic? Right? You mean be like you? A silent coward?

Why can't we try empowering political camps in Israel who might put an end to these evictions you are so concerned about? Or perhaps you could try investigating the details behind the court cases that lead to the evictions.

How does one empower any political camp if criticising the other camp is defined as anti-semitic? It is the right, who views such criticism as being anti-semitic, something the left recognises. A subtle difference you cannot quite grasp.

Tell me, what are the details over the plans to evict 22 families from their homes for a tourist park? Something even the Government has had to speak up against due to International pressure?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_s...idents_in_2007

Which is appalling, in and of itself.

The use of children as some sort of martyrs is nauseating, regardless of what side does it.

The sad part is that children being used in this way is merely a symptom of the disease. And that disease is the perception of religious and cultural superiority..

The Labor government was actually more than accomodating. Kadima, to a lesser extent, also endeavored to establish better relations with the Palestinians. They would value your support. Even if you don't agree with the policies of Kadima, they would still be an improvement over Netanyahu's Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu coalition.

I am a very strong supporter of Kadima. But when the rules that would bring them to the table includes bowing to pressure from the right and fear mongering, then something needs to be said.

But daring to criticise Lieberman's racist ideology is apparently anti-semitic. Tell me, is criticising this kind of policy anti-semitic?

Interior Ministry regulations provide for the abrogation of the rights of Palestinian residents of Jerusalem who leave the city for a period of over seven years. Citizens of Israel can leave the country for any length of time, and their citizenship and all their rights are theirs in perpetuity. But when it comes to Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem, Israel applies draconian regulations whose covert intent is to bring about the expulsion of as many Palestinians as possible from their home city.

This situation is intolerable: At a time when the prime minister speaks grandiloquently of the reunification of Jerusalem, Israel practices inequality and discriminates against the city's Arab residents. At a time when Benjamin Netanyahu speaks of the economic advancement of the territories, Israel prevents the Arab residents of East Jerusalem from advancing their careers abroad and returning afterward to their home city to contribute toward the development of its economy. The screws have been tightened in recent years: In 2008 the residents' rights of 4,557 Palestinian inhabitants of the city were abrogated, the highest number ever.

Waiting on Judge Sohlberg now is not only the fate of two electrical engineering lecturers, but a far weightier question: Will Israel continue treating the Palestinian inhabitants of its capital as if they were foreign migrants whose rights are conditional?


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-silent-expulsion-1.297577

What about this? A brilliant article about just how things got this fucked up.

Look, by attacking Israel in general instead of the factions that are responsible for most of the problems, you are putting the Israeli voting population on the defensive, which swings their politics right. What I favor is trying to revitalize parties in Israel who favor more peaceful relations with the Muslim world.

The Israeli right-wing is the same group of people that is responsible for the evictions you are so concerned about. If you attack Israel over their behavior, you are making the Israelis more inclined to vote for them. You saw the same thing happen when Americans were attacked over the policies of George W. Bush: when you put a country on the defensive, you always empower the most rabidly nationalistic, right-wing factions of that country's government. I think that Israel is a great culture, and I hope earnestly that they can make peace with their Arabic neighbors and their Palestinian minority.

The dim is strong in you, isn't it?

Seriously, no shit sherlock.

I don't attack "Israel" in that I don't "attack" the day to day Israelis trying to live their lives like the rest of us, only they are in a far worse situation than I would want to be in. I attack policies that put those Israelis and the day to day Palestinians in a fucking hellhole. But apparently, doing that is anti-semitic. Apparently pointing out the inequalities in the system is anti-semitic.

Israel is eating itself from the inside because of the religious divide that exists in the country and the segregation and bigotry that stems from that. On top of that, it is destroying itself by denying a whole people their basic human rights and using the right to self defense as a justification of it. Any country that allows policies that call for reporting Jews who date non Jews.. no, seriously? What the hell? Frankly, I don't think the left will change such ideology or will be able to. And that is the tragedy. Because this is the reality in Israel. I'm anti-semitic for criticising crap like this?

A few days after saying he intends to take action against Israeli professors who call for an academic boycott of Israel, Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar is scheduled to appear on Monday before the Knesset Education Committee to discuss the limits of freedom of expression in schools.

-----------------------------------

The comments came some time after Ben-Gurion University Professor Neve Gordon, a vocal proponent of an academic boycott against Israel, received a death threat through the mail.

The principals of two Tel Aviv high schools, Zeev Dagani and Ram Cohen, who have publicly criticized the government's policies in the territories, have also been invited to today's committee meeting.

Dagani, the principal of the Herzliya Gymnasia high school, has publicly opposed Sa'ar's plan to send Israel Defense Forces officers into classrooms to encourage students to enlist in the army, and Cohen has often lectured his students about the Israeli occupation.

---------------------------------

Sa'ar's statements were part of a discussion in the Knesset plenum initiated by MKs Uri Ariel (National Union ) and Yulia Shamalov Berkovich (Kadima ) on the issue of "the post-Zionist takeover of Israeli academia." The discussion was prompted by the Im Tirtzu report, which stated that 80 percent of the research papers taught at political science courses in Israeli universities are "anti-Zionist and anti-nationalist." The report was roundly criticized by academics and public figures, but Im Tirtzu officials said they stood behind the study.

"Israeli academia apparently suffers from 'Palestinomania,' a mild psychological illness whose symptoms include self-hatred, an affinity for Israel's enemies, Jewish anti-Semitism and/or anti-Zionism," Shamalov Berkovich said in the Knesset. "The spread of 'Palestinomania' demands the immediate and painful treatment for all of our sake, and the sooner the better."

------------------------

A spokesperson for Trajtenberg refused to comment when reached by Haaretz, deferring to Sa'ar's office.

"It would behoove the education minister to ignore the report, which emits an aroma of McCarthyism," said Professor Yossi Ben-Artzi, the rector of the University of Haifa. "I hope he will understand the gravity of the very fact of monitoring and informing on lecturers, and of whether he even needs to take seriously an organization like Im Tirtzu, which causes incitement." Earlier this year Sa'ar took part in a conference organized by Im Tirtzu. "I place great importance in this gathering," he said. "Campus activism is hugely vital, and this is what you are doing. For this, you will be blessed." "I very much appreciate this work, which gives expression to an authentic Zeitgeist felt by the public and is much needed on our campuses," Sa'ar said of Im Tirtzu. "I came to tell you: God speed."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/education-minister-vows-to-punish-israeli-professors-who-back-academic-boycott-1.297330

Monitoring and reporting on lecturers as well.. It absolutely blows my mind that we can be accepting this and allowing it to continue and worse still, supporting it. It would make countries like Saudi Arabia and North Korea proud.

Okay, then what do you think led to you having such a suspicious, resentful attitude toward the Jewish people? One thing that I have never understood is the unreasoning paranoia that seems to be associated with European anti-semitism.

I don't have a problem with the Jewish people. I do have a problem with the line of thought that any criticism of policy is automatically anti-semitic. So much so that educators in Israel are at risk of being branded anti-semitic for teaching about democracy and showing photos of IDF soldiers beating Palestinian children. That article is indicative of the downward spiral Israel finds itself in. Israel wants to be a part of the world community? Then in doing so, it also needs to be open to the fact that the world will criticise it when it acts like a spoilt child and implements policies that are designed to divide and cause further unrest and hatred, amongst its Jewish populace, and also with its non-Jewish populace and the occupied Palestinian areas.

The only way you ever seem to refer to them is "Jewish settlers" or "The Israeli government." You never seem to specify any of the particular individuals or factions who may be responsible for the problems you are trying to point out.

I'm sorry. I assumed you had the intelligence to tell the difference. I will know in the future that you do not. My sincere apologies.

I am a guy, you ridiculous person.

So you're a guy? And?

 

[Alien Cockroach]

Why is it that supporters of the Israeli Government and policies spout "anti-semitism" at even a hint of criticism?

I tend to favor the Alignment.

I guess I am just anti-human?

I am not sure. What is your stance on humanism?

Neither is good. Hezbollah would never be accepted at the bargaining table.

They are relatively stable as Islamist movements tend to go. If anything, I think that we should encourage their relationship with the Supreme Leader of Iran, and we should court Iran as potential friend. This is my point of departure with the Israeli left, which is just as distrustful toward Iran as the US is.

I would have assumed that my posts were clear. That criticisms levelled at "Israel" were levelled at the Government.

Then specify, at least occasionally, that you are talking specifically about Netanyahu's right-wing coalition. If you don't like the Alignment or parts of the Alignment either, then specify them as well.

Ah, so we are in agreement then?

You are missing the point.

Quite the contrary. If the world puts pressure on Israel to adopt more humane practices, change can follow.

If the world "puts pressure" on Israel, then they would elect Yisrael Beiteinu as their majority party, and Yisrael Beiteinu would simply remove the Arabs from East Jerusalem entirely. Bye-bye, "Arabic squatters!"

Your "pressure" will only succeed in riling up the Israeli right-wing. Fuck, what do you think it is going to do? Initiate some motherfucking love affair between the Israeli right and the Hamas government? All it is going to do is make matters worse.

There is a vast amount of internal pressure from the left to push for change in policy that is driving the country into not only international disrepute, but also down a path no country wants to go down.

Then you should support the leader of the opposition. Her name is Livni.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=179119

And I also support Livni's statements about Hamas: peace with them is impossible. They are a bunch of psychotic thugs. If they had half of a brain, they just might be dangerous.

However, I do disagree with her on certain specifics. Its a dry, boring subject. It would probably not interest you.

The political right, in Israel, will always have a strong voice, simply because of the fear of Israelis. As long as any criticism is called anti-semitism, then there will always be a problem.

No. As long as people are criticizing the Israelies for being Jewish or for being Israelies, they will become defensive when criticized.

I mean look at you? You're calling me an anti-semite because I criticise Israel's policies in the region.

No. I am calling you an anti-semite because you are stirring up an irrational, emotional Judeophobia instead of talking about solutions, and you don't seem to care. You will not directly criticize any specific group among the Palestinians, and you refuse to be specific when you point fingers at the "Israeli government."

You also seem to have joined the irrational love affair that seems to exist between the Western left and the howling pack of Islamist lunatics named Hamas.

Instead of discussing the policies of the Israeli government in terms of what is wrong with it, you discuss it in terms of their national demonym. This is the source of the problem.

Israel, at the moment, is the darling child of the world.

Hohoho, bullshit.

The Alignment government was tying to court peace with a culture that had been strapping bombs to their children to see how many Jews they can murder in the process of blowing them to chewy chunks, yet people like you and people like S.A.M. were treating the Palestinians like they were innocent lambs and treating the Israelies like they were these evil meanies who were trying to exterminate them.

When it's anti-semitism, you call it anti-semitism. When its racism, you call it racism.

It is protected by the West out of fear of being accused of being anti-semitic.

"West," my left fucking nut. The only reason we can succeed in keeping the American government generally on the side of Israel is the fact that we have some fucking religious nuts here who believe that Israel is supposed to be some special "holy land" or something. Europe doesn't give two fucking hairy turds about Israel. The entire political left seems to have some stupid, ignorant fucking love affair with Hamas, and it is completely irrational.

Because any criticism is met with an accusation of anti-semitism.

Yeah, I heard you crying "white guilt" yards ago. It sounds as stupid now as it did then.

The last good leader Israel had was assassinated tragically. Rabin was the man who wanted to push for a solution and for that, he was killed.

I don't see what is wrong with Livni. She's a bit strong-arm for my liking, though.

So tell me, how are we meant to criticise Israel?

Israel is not the problem. That fat-ass Netanyahu is the problem.

You mean be like you? A silent coward?

Excuse me?

I am a very strong supporter of Kadima.

But daring to criticise Lieberman's racist ideology is apparently anti-semitic.

We are discussing specifics, so I am sated. Personally, my support for Kadima is nuanced, complex and critical. I think that many people in Kadima would be annoyed by some of the views that I hold. Well, tough shit for them: Israel must learn to get along with Iran, starting yesterday morning. On the other hand, I also maintain that they are the best hope for Israel-Palestine, and I feel that Livni is the hero that they need right now.

So you're a guy? And?

Got me, lady. Talk to you later.

 

[Alien Cockroach]

It's no one's place except Jews to say what is or isn't a Jew.

Oh, KrazedKat thinks he's an expert on Jews because he was born Jewish. For religious reasons, he disagrees with Zionist philosophy and Jewish nationalism. There's a lot of them out there, you know. They aren't usually as vocal as this fellow, though. Normally, they are pretty retiring. Although I also disapprove of Zionist philosophy, I disapprove of it with different reason than KK. I also probably have a different concept of how it should be dismounted.

Then again, I am nearly intellectually opposite of Giovanni Gentile: for me, principles are nearly more important than life itself. They are the nearest thing that an atheist can have to a soul. Therefore, if I disagree with KK in principle, it is more important than if I disagreed with him in practice.

The future I envision is one in which Hebron can have one law, Jericho can have another and both are unique from Jerusalem or Jenin, yet there is freedom of movement between all and an interlocked economy for all. Under this concept, no man's way of life is forced on another, yet no man is deprived of his right to the way of life that he chooses. I believe that it is possible for Lebanon, Israel and West Bank to become as one, yet every individual part of each should become more itself. I believe that the uniqueness of a city should be its reason for being built and maintained, but a city is but one organ beneath the carapace of a nation. A nation is but one insect in the great hive that is the world at large. All levels of our organization should be subservient to the individual. The individual is obligated to his bodily organs more than to his wishes, to his wishes more than to his family, to his family more than to his neighbors, to his neighbors more than to his city, to his city more than to his nation, yet not without obligation to his nation and to the world at large. But this is just my thought on the matter, and perhaps I am a fool to have something that I believe in. Belief is just another thing that can be yanked away from you, so it's just another bone of contention we can murder each other over.

 

[hypewaders]

Hasbara is under threat around the world like we haven't seen in some time. It's a fitting time to review some contemporary IsrApartheid talking-points, because they are going to be coming at us faster and more furiously now that their position is losing some of its balance both internally and in international support.

The talking points linked below start out quite admirably, in my view- but when it comes to understanding their neighbors and cousins, Israeli zionists are still in need of much orientation to their human surroundings. What do you think?

Israel Project:Global Language Dictionary (via Australians for Palestine)​

 

[pjdude1219]

Hasbara is under threat around the world like we haven't seen in some time. It's a fitting time to review some contemporary IsrApartheid talking-points, because they are going to be coming at us faster and more furiously now that their position is losing some of its balance both internally and in international support.

The talking points linked below start out quite admirably, in my view- but when it comes to understanding their neighbors and cousins, Israeli zionists are still in need of much orientation to their human surroundings. What do you think?

Israel Project:Global Language Dictionary (via Australians for Palestine)​

I'm familiar with that document. from my point of view its designed to teach people to lie to allow Israel to continue to depalestinian palestine.

In my opinion every you need to know about Israel you can find in the chapter titled right of return=right of confiscation(Electricfetus is a big fan of the arguments of this chapter) basiccly it says that palestinians don't have the right to return(a legally mandated right something no normal honest decent person would make negiotable or worse demand be given up. something all pro Israel people, a most "neutral" people, and sadly some pro palestinian make) because it means they would have to give up the land they stole from the palestinians. basiclly its the reverse the denial of the right of return is saying their is a right to confication for Israelis and jews.


I mean the Israelis literally in this manual have sent out a book on how to deny the palestinians of one(more) of their legally mandated rights.

 

[Alien Cockroach]

Excuse me, Hypewaders:

When the Palestinians say that Jewish people in West Bank are "Jewish settlers" and demand they leave, does this differ from the Israeli government's expulsion of "Arabic squatters"? Is one better than the other?

It seems to me that the people who "criticize Israel" advocate the expulsion of Jewish people from West Bank, even though this constitutes ethnic cleansing, yet they decry the expulsion of non-Jews from Israel, calling it "ethnic cleansing."

However, when I say "Ethnic cleansing against the Jews in West Bank is wrong, and ethnic cleansing against non-Jews in Israel is wrong" then I am called a racist by people who hate the Jews for repulsing non-Jews from Israel, and I am also called a racist by people who hate the non-Jews for repulsing the Jews from West Bank.

And the sentiment that I have gathered from all of this is simple: "two wrongs make a right, and two villains constitute a hero."

What are your thoughts on this?