Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict
- Thread starter goofyfish
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Indeed, we should look at how it's worded. And maybe learn from it.
What Israel is doing now is wrong. That doesn't mean that I think Israel should be packed up and destroyed, or that the Jewish residents should be cleared out. This conflict has its ultimate basis in events long, long before. We should be cognisant of that. If we fail to do that, we fail the test of perspective in resolution. Inevitably, the objections to Israeli actions round here are used as justification for the destruction of Israel in toto. This is absurd; and the impulses that inform it should be recognized.
Follow?
Amusingly, you touched on the point by accident, but without noticing what it means. History creates the present.
Bells
Staff member
Have I said that Israel should be destroyed?
The present conflict is based solely on the fact that the land grab continues. The present conflict is based on the fact that a whole people are being denied their human rights and there is no one to stand up for them. The present conflict has arisen because the victims are repeating the crimes of their aggressors and as happened in history, no one is going to stand up for this new round of victims.
If Israel does not change its policies, then it will lead to its own destruction, by its own hands, because the stuff they are implementing as policy make the apartheid period of South Africa seem like a tea party. A State and a community cannot survive through the implementation of laws and regulations that are so discriminatory.
And unfortunately, people are too god damn stupid to not learn from it.
that line might have been a shot at me; I do belive Israel should be destroyed and have no qualms about saying it.
Bells
Staff member
Well lets see, you have made comments to me about 'my people' in German, and mentioned Jews.. You have also attempted to portray me like a Nazi or Nazi supporter by saying 'my final solution'.. Now, I wonder why I could think that you were stupidly addressing me in your opener, where you were responding to something I had said.. Hmm.. I really do wonder Geoff.
You know nothing about me or my family. You know nothing of the religions within my family. You know nothing of their history and you know nothing of why your sly accusations would make you sound like a moron in their eyes.
Nice history retrospective: that occurred at 1:17 AM or thereabouts. My opener on this thread was before 10 PM the prior evening. Good try, though. It doesn't explain why you jumped in.
And? Again: was my opener addressed to you? Feeling guilty?
If it makes you feel better, I don't think (or recall) that you wanted to destroy Israel. So you jumped into comments that didn't actually feature you...to repudiate my relating you to those comments, which I didn't do in the first place. Kudos.Nope. You are just spreading hate as fast as you possibly can, and you don't seem to care if someone gets killed as a result.
Oh, and you have never indicated whether you support Fatah or Hamas. In case you haven't realized it, they aren't exactly the same group of people.
Who are you accusing of this, though? Have you at any point specified which group of people you are leveling this accusation against?
That is your problem. You don't even bother making distinctions between labor Zionism and revisionist Zionism, and you act like the Jews all march to the beat of the same drum.
That's how you spread hate. You label the enemy, and you treat them all like they're just clones of the same person. The most potent way of dehumanizing people is to take away their individuality.
I think that you know what you are doing. You reject any position on the subject that offers a more nuanced, sophisticated understanding of the political situation there. In fact, when I try to offer a new perspective here--a point of view that I do not see being discussed here or anywhere else--you seem to get angry. Why?
Frankly, I think that you are just an anti-semite. If you were not, then you would be a lot more open to discussing the Israelis as if they were actual people.
Unless you intend to offer something substantial on this subject, the world would be better off if you did not speak.
Bells
Staff member
Oh?
And where have I said this? Do you have a link?
I actually support neither. Why? Because of the politics that caused them to come into existence and what they are now is not what they should be.
Accusing?
So settlers who kick people out of their homes to move in is what exactly? Look at how much land Palestinians have left now. They are being squeezed into ghettos. Do you think that is a fair deal? And you accuse me of hatred?
Not at all. My aunt is Jewish and survived the concentration camps as a small child. She does not march to the same beat of the drum that forces people from their homes. Now, is she an anti-semite for not supporting the Israeli Government's policies?
I beg your pardon?
So I spread hate by criticising a Government that imposes apartheid like policies? I know there are millions of Jews who do not support what the Israeli government does and has done. Are they hateful people as well?
You want to talk about dehumanising people? What about the policies that Israel has implemented against non-Jews in Israel? Why are all Palestinians, even small school children, treated like terrorists at road blocks? Why are Palestinians denied adequate medical care and education based solely on their being non-Jewish? Why is it acceptable to force people out of their homes to make way for new settlers? Why are those people who are forced out not compensated adequately but forced to live in refugee camps as a result, where they are not given access to clean water or health and education, because of Israel's policies? You want to talk about dehumanising people? What about the way in with the Government has of identifying who is a Jew and who is a non-Jew in Israel? And you dare accuse me of dehumanising people? That the actions of Israel's Government (past and present) are so fucking familiar does not disturb you at all?
Any Government, regardless of their religion, who commits these kinds of acts is also committing gross acts against basic, fundamental human rights. It was so in South Africa. It was so in Rwanda in the lead up to the genocide. It was so when the Nazi's did it to the Jews and when the Turks did it to the Armenians before those genocides. It was so in the Balkans and it is so in Israel and in Sudan.
Considering that I have been addressing GeoffP mostly in this debate and I don't think I have ever, (maybe once or twice), responded to you about the situation... Do you possibly have me confused with someone else?
How can I reject any position on the subject that you have made, when I have pretty much ignored you for the most part of this debate? I find that intriguing. Are you a sock? Geoff, is that you old son? Sandy?
If that is what you think? Fine.
Do you think I am an anti-semite because I criticise Israel's Government and policies that result in people being treated like animals because of their religion or lack there of? Am I an anti-semite because I am critical of discriminatory practices that is state sanctioned at times, and even supported?
If that makes me an anti-semite, then fine.
Where have I said that Israelis are not actual people. I have said in the past that Israelis deserve the right to live in peace and should not be threatened constantly. And they cannot, because of their Government's policies and because of the way the Government has acted, not just towards its neighbours, but towards the Palestinians who live there. And it is not just the State, but local municipalities, that impose rules and laws that if it were to occur in South Africa today, we would be imposing embargoes on them again because it would be going back to apartheid.
It is something that Israelis like Braverman recognises.
Is he an anti-semite as well?
So you have brought what to this subject, by calling me an anti-semite? Because I criticise a State's Government for practices that its own ministers are calling unequal and discriminatory? Right.. okay..
What can I say to you at this point? Oh yes.. Suck it up Princess.
Not my style, old son. Although why did you make light of the hate-fest on board the Marmara if you have this nebulous Jewish aunt?
Bells
Staff member
I didn't make light of it.
If you had read what I said properly, you would have realised that I found killing people to be of more importance than the songs.
My aunt is French and a Jew. She survived the Nazis as a child. She married my mother's brother, a Catholic. If you think I am critical of Israel's policies, you should hear her. She is 10 times more vocal than I am. Do you know why? Because she sees a repeat of her childhood. She sees that Palestinians are born and raised in that atmosphere of hatred, as are Israelis. And it is a continuing cycle. And it will continue unless there is a policy change and equality is deemed important. If that does not happen, then the State itself will place itself at risk by its own hands.
Does the term "singalong" mean anything to you? Please.
Huh. Does she like singalongs also? Enough already.
Bells
Staff member
What was more important to you Geoff? The murder of 9 people? Or yes, a singalong? Songs or words said in song is more important than the execution of 5 people and murder of 4 others?
Which should take precedence in your opinion? 9 people dead and several others missing? Or songs?
That bothers you, don't it?
And - done. Thanks for playing. It didn't take long at all.
Bells
Staff member
The question still stands. That you cannot answer it says more about you than it does about me.
Tell me Geoff. What should have precedence in matters of importance? The shooting deaths of 9 people or anti-semitic songs? On a scale? Where does the death of 9+ people come in for you? Above or below anti-semitic songs? In this particular situation. Which is more important, Geoff?
Oh? But I have answered it, several times. I'm going to make this simple for you, since the nuances have completely eluded you so far: the 9+ deaths are at least partially the fault and responsibility of those who organized the hatefest, and participated in it. The 'Khaybar' song is an ancient anti-Semitic song, and it was clear evidence of a premeditated end for the protest by the organizers. You seem to fixated on balancing the harm of the deaths versus the 'song': it demonstrates to me that your conception of the event is relatively simple. To answer your question very directly (not that I think it will help, but in that it might help): the deaths are the worse...but whose fault are they? The hate rally prior to the rappelling mobbing suggests that there is blame to be had on both sides - at the least.
Then again, if your entire talking point is a feeble political argument - as I quite reasonably suspect - my efforts will go nowhere.
I did realize I forgot to fisk this:
Assuming I believed it: no. Should it?
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