What that have to do with the price of cheese on ham?
Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict
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What that have to do with the price of cheese on ham?
Perhaps Sam means that Jewish people were happy when the Nazis forced them into these ghettos? It allowed them to preserve their faith, perhaps?
Ah me. Sciforums.
SAM, do go and **** yourself if you are going to deliberately distort my statements. You are an annoying ****, so get lost.
How so? If you think it's wrong for Israel to throw out Palestinian families, under all circumstances, then why do you think it is more acceptable when Jewish families are forced out of their own homes because the Palestinians are intolerant of them? Don't you sense that there is some kind of double-standard going on, here?
Or do you think that we should accept lower behavioral standards for the Palestinians just because their government is a disorganized clusterfuck, and their voting population is too fucking ignorant to accept the concept that they do not actually have any alternative to getting along with the Jews?
Besides, Saudi Arabia, which is the primary backer of Hama, has been the most vicious theocracy in recorded history. Conversion to any religion besides Islam officially carries a death sentence. What in your seemingly inadequate mind makes you think that a Sunni-controlled Palestine would behave any differently? They wouldn't, you fucking retarded idiot!
I don't agree with what the Israeli government does with the Palestinians, but you have to smoke a lot of crack to make your mind retarded enough to think that the Muslims embroiled in this are just some fucking innocent victims.
Until you can get it through your retarded head that there isn't a single group involved here that is completely blameless, you will look like a right fucking ass as far as I am concerned. Got that?
Fuck, I don't even completely absolve Kadima, which I have been supporting very vocally for months going. I disagree with a lot of statements that have been made by Livni, and I think she should be more fucking flexible with Iran than she has been. However, disagreeing with her on something does not make her some kind of fucking cartoon villain.
And Netanyahu's worst offense against the human race is still being a belligerent fat-ass.
So far, I seem to be the only person embroiled in this fucking useless discussion who has actively exhibited any fucking sense of perspective at all. I'm tired of being put down by one pack of fucking retards or another for not marching lockstep with the fucking ridiculous views of under-educated, intellectually lazy assclowns.
What you going to say to that, you fucking ass? Do you want to accuse me of being a motherfucking racist?
Go ahead and report me, you ********. You are too much of a f******** to deliver a really educated response, and you can go to fucking Hell as far as I am concerned.
SAM is an arrogant pig, Bells accuses anyone who disagrees with her of being a "racist" and proceeds to tune them out like she admitted doing in my case, and I haven't seen a single intelligent or educated thought behind any typeface associated with your fucking alias.
Do some fucking reasearch[sic] before you waste anymore fucking bandwidth, or go and **** yourself.
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According to halacha, observant Jews may not even eat at the table of a non-observant Jew who violates the Shabos, according to some rabbis, for the entire week. As for gentiles they are always to be separate.
"It is fitting that all the Jewish people be unified in the matter of eating and drinking so as not to cause in their own midst a rift like that which separates them from the others [the Gentiles]; we should not multiply separate groups." (Yore Deah 58, quoted by Professor Menachem Friedman in “Life Tradition and Book Tradition” and “The Market Model and Religious Radicalism.”)
Does that sound like someone who will marry outside their faith?
From personal experience Jews are incredibly flexible in belief, I've only met one "observant" Zionist Israeli Jew in my life and he was willing to go to a secular Jewish passover without batting an eye.
Statistics don't lie.
Sam said:
You make the assumption - a false one, given my link above - that these ghettos were based on the religious preferences of their inhabitants, which rather seems to assume that Jews of the ME were robotic in their religious strictures. Rather, the apparent reason is the safety of those populations - which failed numerous times, apparently.
Are we talking about observant religious Jews here?
This kind?
Religious insularity is a form of social control and laws about diet, clothing and living arrangements augment that control [ask me, I live in a country with all extremes of religious insularity, right down to taking a bath if contaminated by the shadow of an unclean person]. I doubt many of the non-observant Jews who support Israel could spend one week in a kashruth community which follows the rules of halacha.
You wanna talk self segregation? How about Jews and blacks in Crown Heights, USA?
source
While Jews themselves may not see their own insularity as racism, the perception of such self segregation may cause others to see them that way. Its probably why, after WWII, kashruth has become a strictly indoor activity.
Sam, this is more weasel posting. EF's statistics seem pretty sound; meanwhile, your argument appears to have devolved to potshots based on extreme cases.
Edit: I assume you're done on the mellah/mohalla thing. And please don't post "I live in a mohalla, so I know better" again: it's clearly not the issue.
Then the point of the potshots is what, exactly?
I don't think all religious Jews are "extreme cases" but if they follow kashruth, the laws are mandated just like Ramadan for Muslims. Most of them no longer follow kosher laws so its not relevant. But prior to WWII, you'd have been hard put to find observant religious Jews outside self segregated ghettos even in India and most likely this is still true. It placed them at a disadvantage in their societies like the rules of Muslim prayer and fasting do for Muslims in other societies. Its not inherently evil or even a criticism, its like that short skirt which is a convenient distraction, like I was referring to.
its not a pot shot unless you think mandated fasting in Ramadan is a potshot. Its a form of mandated religious insularity, which is not at all strange in a community that is governed by laws rather than by faith.
No: posting about Muslims spitting on non-Muslims during Ramadan would be a pot-shot of the same type. You're complaining about the kettle, despite being on the burner just next to it. This has nothing to do with the ghettoization of Jews from the 7th to 20th centuries.
If a fasting Muslim refused to eat at a birthday party or even to attend it, it would be a parallel comparison. I'm not responsible for the "spitting at the reporter" phenomenon. The spitting thing is something that Jews have come up with as a form of expressing intolerance for idol worship [you must have read Cheski's comments on Hindu idols] It has its basis in spitting at the crucifix or near a church, with hasidic Jews teaching young children that if it is dangerous to spit openly then they should do so covertly. You'll not find Rahm Emmanuel spitting at many crucifixes. At least not openly.
Strangely enough, I do not think Jews in India or even Arab Jews, spit at crucifixes or idols, so this looks like an evolution which took place within the European diaspora, as did most of the laws of Jewish communities. Its why Ashkenazi Haredim do not consider the Mizrahi as "religious enough" - they do not have all these laws.
Not exactly, no. If a Jewish kid was forced not to eat at a birthday party or even attend it, then you would have a parallel comparison.
I said you were? Herring impaired?
Err....riiiight. Well, that doesn't sound paranoid or racist at all.
/sarc off
That's an impressive level of OT paranoia. And I'm the deluded one, am I? Could you respond to James now, please? I'm curious to see what happens.
Geoffp said:
Correct, and that is the comparison I made - the hasbarised explanation apart.
No I have already informed "James [are there Palestinian refugees] R" that I will not debate this issue with him. Besides he's trolling. I could say that there were no Germans in charge of the Warsaw ghetto only Jewish ghetto police so it was as voluntary as the Gaza ghetto which is not occupied.
Thats your prerogative. Feel free to read about halacha and kashruth laws to expand your education and also on the phenomenon of self segregation in religious communities. The Jews, whatever their shortcomings, are prolific writers and have enough critical views of their own religious shortcomings to suffice anyone willing to explore the phenomenon.
It's not a question of perogative; and your allegations don't explain the ghettoization of Jewish people. I've already posted a link illustrating this, which you ignored.
If this is the new standard for the thread, then the thread ought to be closed.
I'll pass on commenting about your ad hominem again. Whoops! I just did comment on it. (Did you find out anything about mellahs, O learned one?)
If this is the new standard for the thread, then the thread ought to be closed.
I'll pass on commenting about your ad hominem again. Whoops! I just did comment on it. (Did you find out anything about mellahs, O learned one?
)
Bells
Staff member
No Israeli Government, be it left or right would ever view or adopt Iran as a potential friend unless there is a major policy shift in Iran. The rhetoric exists on both sides.
Seeing that it is Netanyahu that is currently in power and the right that hold sway, I would have assumed when I said "Israely Government policy", I was making myself quite clear.
Because I am not apologetic about the Government's actions or try to excuse them in my disagreeing with them?
Have you missed the parts where the right wing are already fired up and it is the glaring reports of the media and Western countries that are forcing Netanyahu to actually act against them, the easing of the blockade is a prime example.
There is an inherent racism within the Israeli society and it is strongly supported by the right. Feeding the fear of Arabs in general, even if they are Arabic Jews. But along with that, they feed the fear of all Jews that Muslims are out to get them. At some point, one would hope that the day to day Israeli would start to question. They are starting to and the result is the potential firing and labels of anti-semitism to Jewish lecturers and teachers who are asking their pupils and students to question the 'occupation'. But it is outside pressure and support of these lecturers and teachers that is forcing the issue. I think that's a good thing.. It has to be better than saying nothing at all lest we are accused of anti-semitism.
Not as much. She is too entrenched in the beliefs.. She is willing to sell out to the bad side. Apparently they have cookies.
She also stated she would not change anything into the incursion into the Gaza Strip.. And she supports the blockade during that incursion, where nothing was getting in.. In such things, I depart from the left as well. Would she be any better? Would she support the ideology that is currently seeing educators threatened with a loss of employment because they question the Government's actions when it comes to the treatment of the Palestinians? Thus far, she hasn't shown anything that would indicate that she would allow such questions to be posed in schools and universities, that she would allow such notions to even be discussed or questioned? Somehow I doubt it.
I have no love for Hamas. But Livni and the right need to recognise that punishing the Palestinians will push them more towards the people who claim to want to help them, they being Hamas. By denying them their basic human rights, it's not going to make them turn on Hamas. They have no other alternative at the moment. They are critical of Hamas, but what alternative do they have when they are living in such conditions? Hamas should not be in power. They are murderous thugs. But they are in power. And they were voted in democratically.. Which speaks of the desperation of the Palestinian people to be honest.
What the Palestinians need is a new front. One that isn't supportive of violence and does not call for martyrs. One that does not call for or encourage children to take up arms. But as long as they are denied their fundamental rights, they are going to support the individuals who advocate violence in a bid to end their suffering. And that is a tragedy. Israel needs to stop creating martyrs amongst the Palestinians and Palestinians needs to stop celebrating martyrs who go out and murder dozens of people in suicide bombings.
I don't criticise Israelis for being Jewish. Why should I? What I do criticise is the pushing of religious superiority and exclusiveness.. the whole concept that the right has rammed down their throats for so long. I mean reporting people for marrying or dating non-Jews.. I criticise those who support such policies. I don't criticise Israelis for being Jewish. I criticise the ones who have bought the whole line about superiority based solely on their religion and not just that, but on which particular sect of the religion they belong to. Jews in Israel have a fundamental right to live in peace without fear. But so do Palestinians.
No. You are calling me an anti-semite because I dare to criticise the policies and that is what you are calling 'stirring up an irrational, emotional Judephobia'. Which is ironic really.
But look, if my questioning and criticising policies that are bigotted to not just Palestinians, but to Jews living in Israel means tha tI am an anti-semite. Fine. That is your opinion.
More like trying to make others see that the West pushes for democracy and will only support the people if the side the West supports wins. The joys of democracy and the utter hypocrisy of it. I detest the hypocrisy and the irony of our own follies.
If the majority of Palestinians were guilty of this, there would be no Israelis left and no Palestinians left. The whole region would be a smoking hole in the ground. I think it is a testament to the greater majority of the Palestinians that there are not more suicide bombers. And I hope and know that the average Israeli who just wants peace would do what they can to stop their Government of the day from trying to exterminate Palestinians if it ever came to that.
Racism and anti-semitism exists in this whole debate. It exists between the two factions and it exists within Israel as a religious state.
No. Do you know why Germany is so careful about criticising Israel? Because it does not want to be labeled as anti-semitic. There is a fear in the world's Governments of being labelled anti-semitic, because of what happened in the past. So they don't criticise. Unfortunately, any criticism, no matter how minute, is always met with cries of anti-semitism from the right. It is anti-semitic to even investigate the actions of Israel in Gaza, for example. It is anti-semitic to even discuss the actions of the IDF. Christians in the West support Israel, and they appear to be mostly fanatical born again, because of their own self interest.. they want to get to heaven after all.
But I think you would find that the World's governments don't criticise or are very careful about criticising and how they word it because they do not want to give the appearance of being anti-semitic.
As a woman of colour, I can assure you, "white guilt" exists.
Just as fear of being accused of being anti-semitic exists.
Because her ideology is not that far from the right. She is the most right of the left they can use to try and recapture support.
So how do we criticise Netanyahu and his party and not be called anti-semites? You might want to let the Jewish lecturers in Israel in on the secret as well. They are being labelled as anti-semitic by the Government for daring to express their views and opinions on the treatment of Palestinians and the denial of rights (that just keeps on growing) by Netanyahu and his goons...
Making it in big red writing does not make it any less true. The way you accuse me of anti-semitism for criticising the regime... cowardly..
And as I said before, Israel will never ever get along with Iran unless Iran goes through its own other revolution and has a massive policy change. What will change things in the region is education.. open education and allowing people to question. Kadima, is the lesser of two evils in Israel. It may not be the best, but it is all there is at the moment. What they do need is someone who is willing to come to the bargaining table and take the higher moral ground in the conflict.
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