Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict
- Thread starter goofyfish
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What I find to be most appalling here is that a self-righteous, hypocritical fool like Bells will never see you for the hateful drone that you really are. SAM, you are more blind than any person I have ever known.
I am done with you, filth.
There. Without you there to block my view, I am now less blind.
Good-bye, SAM.
Well, if you don't like hearing what I have to say, then you should use the same feature that I am using. Then we will not be able to bother each other at all.
Nah I have no problem with dissenting opinions. I bet I have introduced more people here to varied Jewish viewpoints on Israel-Palestine than anyone else from Gilad Atzmon to Dov Weisglass. Almost all my sources here are from Jews or Zionists although occasionally I present a Palestinian point of view. I think you can learn more from people who don't agree with you.
I decided to take you off ignore because you obviously had something you really wanted to say, and I really don't feel comfortable ignoring people. I guess it's a failing in my personality that I can't just leave a dead subject alone.
SAM, I tried to explain to some very ignorant Republicans, several years ago, that I don't hate my country just because I disagree with my government. I have come to believe, since then, that I have a patriotic duty to criticize my country when it is in the wrong. Is it so confusing to you that I criticize the government of Israel because I support them at heart?
You would never do the same for the Palestinians. You don't have the kind of personal courage that it takes to raise your voice when your friend is making a mistake that will get him or her hurt in the long-run. You are not the kind of friend the Palestinians need right now, and neither does Israel need the kinds of friends who are too cowardly to try to correct them.
I acknowledge many of your criticisms on how the Israeli government has treated the Palestinians, and I think that I am in the right if I say so from the position of being a friend to Israel. The positions are compatible. If you do not understand this, then you truly are blind.
SAM, I tried to explain to some very ignorant Republicans, several years ago, that I don't hate my country just because I disagree with my government. I have come to believe, since then, that I have a patriotic duty to criticize my country when it is in the wrong. Is it so confusing to you that I criticize the government of Israel because I support them at heart?
You would never do the same for the Palestinians. You don't have the kind of personal courage that it takes to raise your voice when your friend is making a mistake that will get him or her hurt in the long-run. You are not the kind of friend the Palestinians need right now, and neither does Israel need the kinds of friends who are too cowardly to try to correct them.
I acknowledge many of your criticisms on how the Israeli government has treated the Palestinians, and I think that I am in the right if I say so from the position of being a friend to Israel. The positions are compatible. If you do not understand this, then you truly are blind.
another angle on destroying Israel(which despite its supporters and apoligists claims is not this horrible evil unfair thing to do but I digress) and actually allowing the palestinians to exercise their rights. In accepting Israel as existing and refusing to allow the palestinians their legally mandated right because well its been so long don't you realize your helping to create a precedent that says if you can get away with something long enough you'll never be punished for your crimes. This is a precedent that Suadi Arabia, North Korea, the former Soviet republics, every half way decently powerful warlord in asia and africa, and any tin can despot can exploit to get away with their crimes.
If you capitulate to the radical militants of Hamas, then you endorse that kind of behavior too. Most Palestinians advocate a two-state solution, and in the West Bank they are building an actual state instead of engaging in self-defeating violence.
if anything Hamas is the prime example of making sure the palestinians get their rights something your hell bent on making sure doesn't happen. you don't need to use violence to get your lawful rights when you already have them. and give palestine back to the palestinians isn't encouraging that behavior of hamas. its telling people that if you trust in the system of the law you will win. now if we tried arming them so they could go on a war of conquest like say we did with the zionist in the late forties you would have a point.
because sadly most of them have given up on getting their legal rights. they should strive for a two state solution but work to regain what you and yours stole from them.
Maybe if your precious Israel didn't deny them the resources to build a state Gaza would be building one two. sadly they won't ever be connected again until your ilk gets their wish a palestine free of palestinians
Nations are not people and laws and justice are different for nations, also I would think America, Australia, Turkey,etc have already done this, so the precedent is already set.
only one of those is a valid angle and your mentioning of turkey is telling. No one really complains that the turks shouldn't be held accountable but when it comes to Israel had their palestinian victims its a different tune being sung. also both the US and Australia have attempted to make ammends for their crimes something you as an Israel supporter refuse to support happening.
Come now I have not supported Israel making amends? Certainly if Israel could make amends like the USA and Australia have such as a simple set of apologies and maybe an aid fund here and there, and those amends be accepted I would be all for it. Certainly amends is not what you and your ilk want from Israel.
Many complain about Turkey being accountable, specifically the Turks.
pjdude1219, as usual you are engaging in strawman arguments and personal attack. Everyone is an favor of human rights as long as it doesn't mean stepping on the human rights of others. Turning all the Israeli Jews into refugees again in favor of some vague tribal concept of ownership would certainly make you feel avenged, but it's not a serious proposal.
The ultimate problem has not changed at all: seething hatred for things minority in the Arab nations around Israel. This, ultimately, is why there won't be peace. What Israel's doing now is wrong, but the history just can't be ignored.
It must be hard on the anti-Israelis. You can argue civil justice, but without ever forgetting the tulwar in the other hand.
It must be hard on the anti-Israelis. You can argue civil justice, but without ever forgetting the tulwar in the other hand.
Bells
Staff member
Ah.. the "but"..
What Israel is doing now is wrong. There is no "but". The history of what was done to the Jews does not excuse the behaviour or actions of Israel now. It would be akin to the Hutus going on a rampage today and commiting genocide against the Hutus. Noone would be saying "what they are doing now is wrong, but the history just cannot be ignored".
Quite the contrary.
One would imagine that Jews, like the Tutsi, for example, would have learned from history and not go on to repeat the mistakes made against them. And here is where the "but" comes in. For Israel at least. Because the lessons weren't learned. Israel has turned itself into a State based solely on religion, where rights are only afforded based on your religion and discrimination is based solely on religion. Which is ironic, when one considers the genocide waged against them because of their religion.
It has gone from one extreme to the other.
No one here celebrates the holocaust. The history of the Jews has been one cursed by tragedy and death. But that does not give them the right to now go on and ensure that Palestinians will have the same type of history, one steeped in forced migration, death, pain and denied their human rights. And that is something your "but" does not take into account. You use it as an excuse. There is no excuse.
You fundamentally misunderstand the meaning of the "but". It is not justification.
Bells
Staff member
Really?
Shall we look at how you worded it?
"What Israel's doing now is wrong, but the history just can't be ignored."
In other words... 'What they're doing now is wrong, but in saying that, you can't ignore what happened in the past'..
There should be no "but". What they are doing now is wrong. Full stop. Saying "but" makes it look like you are saying that because they have such a bad history, then it's understandable that they are doing what they are doing now. Denying a people their human rights, forced migration, blockades, beatings, denying them access to proper medical care or nutrition, random bombings, denying them the right to proper educational facilities, forcing them to live in ghettos and refugee camps, random shooting of children walking to and from schools.. There is no "but".
Your saying "but" also means that Palestinians who blow themselves up on civilian buses in Israel, for example, also have a "but", because we should not deny their history and their current plight. Now that doesn't sound right to you, does it?
Do you know what is ironic? The "but" often used in regards to Israel is the cause of Palestinians who do take that route as a form of defense.
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