Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict
- Thread starter goofyfish
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I live under a federal constitutional presidential republic. Believe it or not, but most US states are fairly autonomous. Individual US states even have their own military: the National Guard, in spite of its name, is actually organized and controlled at the state level. In a lot of cases, states have to make special arrangements for extradiction to punish criminals who flee to another state after commiting their crime. We even have our own budget: although the US federal government may be in debt up to its eyeballs, the government of North Carolina actually has an article in its constitution that bars deficit spending.
A united Palestine would have to be similarly partitioned, and the cultural divide would probably result in them being divided at a deeper, more intrinsic level than US states. They would have to draft a constitution, and they would have to get it ratified. Even after that, it would be nothing but a piece of paper until the new government had established a degree of credibility and come truly to grips with its boundaries and limitatons.
However, that's not even going to be up for discusson until Fatah has worked out a viable system of government that would be reasonably compatible with that of Israel. It's not something that could be done overnight or at the wave of some magic wand.
Fatah will not hold elections, they know Hamas will win. Again. People always vote for patriots over traitors just as Americans did not vote for loyalists. And whatever system of governance Fatah can work out with the occupation, it will not be representative. The two state solution is irrevocably dead, now it only remains to be seen what Israel intends to do with the 50% non-Jewish population it controls.
SAM, your politics suck the hair off a gnat's testicles. Hamas has no interest at all in seeking out a peaceful solution with the Israelies. As long as they run the show, life for the Pals will be craptacular. That's just how it is. Fatah offers them a chance to form a coordinated, efficient, moreover RATIONAL goverment. All Hamas offers is satisfying your ridiculous, misguided Jihadist ideals, and you don't even seem to care very much for what actually happens to the Pals.
Of the 50% non-Jews ie 5 million, only 1 -1.5 million in Palestine have the right to vote for the government that controls the laws they live under. That kind of politics is unsustainable in any country that pretends to be a democracy. I cannot see anyone who is disenfranchised in such a way voting for a system/fraction/party that propagates this. Would you?
Then they should apply for citizenship.
I believe they have, in East Jerusalem at least. In the West Bank and Gaza, they are under occupation. It would be like expecting patriots in the US to apply for British citizenship at a time when they were fighting the loyalists. Totally irrational expectations.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-...em-arabs-seeking-israeli-citizenship-1.232665
There are also Israelis seeking Palestinian citizenship
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-pianist-daniel-barenboim-takes-palestinian-citizenship-1.237152
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-...em-arabs-seeking-israeli-citizenship-1.232665
There are also Israelis seeking Palestinian citizenship
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-pianist-daniel-barenboim-takes-palestinian-citizenship-1.237152
Okay, so now you are saying that some of these people are not really in Israel at all, but they are in West Bank territory. Nevertheless, you think that they should be able to vote in Israel's elections. Do you realize that you are sounding absolutely retarded?
The people in the west bank and Gaza are among those evicted from their homes in Occupied Palestine. Where do you think the dispossessed Palestinians are transported when their homes become Jewish only? Why do you think there are 1.5 million people in the small space of Gaza?
I disagree with actions by the government of Israel that disrupt established communities. It is highly inflammatory, and it leaves dispossessed Palestinians more contentious than they would otherwise have been. To a large extent, the government of Israel have brought their problems with the Palestinians living in Gaza Strip upon themselves.
However, I suspect that you are misportraying what is actually going on there.
Its a matter of public record. Palestinians evicted over the last 60 years have slowly been forced into Gaza. Where do you think all the former citizens of Sderot live for example?
To the other, where do you think evicted Palestinians go after their homes become Jewish only? All those Palestinians evicted from Jewish settlements in all of Palestine, where are they? They cannot even rent in Jewish housing.
So where are they? 90% of Palestinian building permits in the West Bank are rejected and they cannot get building permits outside East Jerusalem in Israel. If they cannot build, if they cannot rent, where do they go?
Note that Palestinians who are forced into Gaza cannot move freely into the West Bank or East Jerusalem, although all three are considered the occupied territories. Students have been forcibly deported if they tried to study in the university in the West Bank
So, should they have a vote?
Well, now it sounds to me like an unforeseen consequence of a misguided and thoughtlessly constructed policy. Don't you think that some of the Jews in Israel, whom you seem to be bent on demonizing rather than trying to earn their sympathy, might be concerned about this if someone rational were to try to explain to them the nature and causes of the problem?
They should file for citizenship in either Israel or West Bank, and they should work at steady jobs. Furthermore, they should take their claims into courts of law seeking compensation. If they are not receiving equitable and just treatment by Israeli courts, 1) there are a number of non-violent means of protest, which they can and should pursue at that point, and 2) this should also be brought to the attention of the international community in a civilized manner.
What I mean by "civilized manner" is, for example, the protesters on that flotilla, assuming they were conducting themselves in a dignified manner. Remember, I criticized Netanyahu's government for their actions during this incident. I warmed up significantly to the Palestinian cause due to the fact that they were demonstrating in a non-violent yet courageous manner. I see it as the responsibility of the international community to reward peaceful, dignified forms of protest and encourage them where they are due.
Not if they are not considered to be citizens of Israel and have not even applied for citizenship.
Well, she was in violation of the pass that allowed her to go from Gaza to West Bank. It would have been wise of her to apply for a student pass. I am sympathetic toward her, but you are always taking a risk if you fail to comply with agreed upon procedure.
If I were her, I would take up my case with the Palestinian Authority. I would demand that the Palestinian government aggressively adopt a stance of phasing out Israeli control over checkpoints. It is their responsibility to establish and defend the borders of their country, and it is their right and responsibility to develop and enforce an immigration policy. THEIR OWN immigration policy. The government there needs to become more assertive of its own validity. The Israeli government isn't do that for them, certainly. The world at large should pressure and support Fatah in developing such an infrastructure. Like Obama said, the current situation isn't sustainable.
Also, I think that Israeli law should be reformed to properly address situations like hers. Any Israeli should be concerned if the stipulations of their laws create such problems. There is obviously a deep and severe flaw in their system that creates a deep rift between its rightful intentions and its actual practice. Events like this one are going quite far in wrecking their standing in the world at large. It makes them look incompetent. As a strong supporter of Israel, I am very concerned about this.
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Did you not read my post at all? I stated clearly that I was concerned. What more do you ask of me? Should I swoon?You act as if that is that is normal:
Gazans are banned from studying in the West Bank
I think that the truth of the matter is that you are a religious bigot, and you are using cases like hers to incite hatred and violence against the Jewish people. If people like her knew how little you actually cared for her plight, then she would probably speak as strongly against you as she has spoken against the IDF.
Your status as a bigot has been laid out very starkly and plainly in how you superciliously peer down your nose at the West. You brazenly dump on my culture, and you show off your prejudice as if you were proud of it. It is nauseating to watch you behave with all the level of tolerance I would expect out of Jesse Helms' ghost while useless hypocrites like Bells sit there agreeing and nodding with every lump of feces that drops out of your mouth.
I showed adequate concern for what happened to the young woman, and I am within my rights to phrase such concerns from a point of view of being primarily concerned with how these kinds of events are affecting the well being of Israel.
I also clearly and plainly criticized the Palestinian authority, the leadership of which you have shown that you disapprove of. You will not recognize this fact, either, because you will never acknowledge a "stupid" American as having a point of view that is due any kind of positive recognition at all.
You are a bigot. Although it is long overdue for the Israeli government to reform their policies toward the Palestinians, I am within my rights to support them in general without some pretentious fool like yourself treating me like some brainwashed drone.
I have a major problem with people who think its okay to take away choices and human rights from other human beings. One thing I never understand about pro-Israelis is why they think Jews moving in from other countries should have any right to tell Palestinians where they can live, what they can eat and where they should study. It smacks to me of racism, its the same attitude that the so called high caste have with the untouchables in my own country
And yes, I am extremely bigoted towards all such people.
Well, how are you going to change how these people behave by trying to paint them as ogres and acting like you are determined to be their enemy? The more people like you behave like you're trying to get the whole world to just hate Israel and hate the Jews, the more the Jews in Israel are going to want to blow you up. Quite frankly, their military is more able than that of Iran and Syria and Lebanon all rolled into one. Furthermore, the USA is Israel's ally and has enough firepower to blow a hole in the world. If it came down to a confrontation, your side would lose and look like idiots on top of it.
You do not have an alternative to the peaceful solution, which a lot of people on my side of the issue are more than open to. The alternative is cultural suicide.
Whereas I am one of those people on the "pro-Israeli" side who favor a more tolerant, progressive future for the state of Israel. I think that the government of Israel should develop toward becoming a more open and inclusive society. Do you have a problem with this?
This is a major problem on the pro-Israeli side. They are more concerned with hasbara on image than their actions. If Brahmins make dalit children sit outside the school, how it appears to other people when their actions are pointed out, is less important than their motivations in doing so.
You cannot build a tolerant society by covering up atrocities or justifying them.
Well, my main interest is the well being of Israel. I have a different idea than others of what that constitutes, but I am nevertheless going to be biased toward a perspective on the issue that takes into account, first and foremost, the welfare of Israel.
However, my sympathy for the young woman's tragedy is completely unfeigned. At a personal level, I hope that she will find a way to continue with her education until its completion.
SAM, this sounds like a mixture of 1) ignorant people in the IDF, and 2) a faulty system of law that allowed them to do something nasty. I stated clearly that I felt that Israel's policies should be reformed so as to prevent things like this from happening in the future, and I even stated very clearly that the Palestinian Authority should "aggressively" assert its rights and live up to its responsibilities toward its people. I expressed sympathy for Hezbollah in one of their land disputes for Israel when HEZBOLLAH WAS FIRING HIGH VELOCITY AMMUNITION AT IDF SOLDIERS. What more do you want from me, lady? Suggest blowing up Tel Aviv?
That is what you want, isn't it? Take the peaceful solution, or get nothing.
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