Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

Status
Not open for further replies.
Zakariya04 said:
geoff is right, of course Israel wants hamas out as they seem them as the biggest threat.

Is this the right of nations to expel people who are considered the biggest threat? Should England, after having suffered individual attacks on its civilians in the streets and pubs, mass riots in the cities, open rallies for terror in response to newspaper cartoons and deadly bombings on its public transportation systems expel its biggest threat? How about India which has experienced the same? How about the US after 9/11? Do we all instead take the high road of tolerance together and encourage our friend Israel to do the same?
 
Nanonetics said:
Is this the right of nations to expel people who are considered the biggest threat? Should England, after having suffered individual attacks on its civilians in the streets and pubs, mass riots in the cities, open rallies for terror in response to newspaper cartoons and deadly bombings on its public transportation systems expel its biggest threat? How about India which has experienced the same? How about the US after 9/11? Do we all instead take the high road of tolerance together and encourage our friend Israel to do the same?

Nano,

I hope we do expel all the twats who cause so much trouble and harm the delicate balance of race relations in the UK
 
GeoffP said:
Friedman's a Zionist? Come on.

If you don't like what they publish, contact the embassies of the following nations:

Saudi Arabia
Syria
Jordan
Palestine
Iran
Iraq
Turkey
Libya

MEMRI can't publish what doesn't already exist.

Thanks.

Geoff

Geoff, Geoff

Eventhough Memri may be writing what it perceives as exists, i think what he means by balanced is that they only write the bad things about what the arabs have done.
In your opinion Geoff have the Arabs done nothing right?
 
Zak, Zak:

Of course they've done right. I'm not worried about the right things, but only the evil things.

I think you really misunderstand the issue, whether deliberately or otherwise. Rabid antisemitism on a state-owned or state-regulated media service does not correspond to simple, random variation in national opinion. These services are seen by tens of millions of people all over the Middle East. In states where media broadcasts are controlled by the state, such broadcasts represent the policy of that government with respect to the Jews. And the stuff that MEMRI finds is not "perceived to exist", lest those pesky Jews can project their evil onto Syrian, Saudi and Jordanian TV by the mere act of mental energy. Was that your position?

What is spewed out of mosques and media in many islamic countries contains horrifying, evil, sickening messages. There is enough that MEMRI has no trouble finding it. Blood libel, Quranic incitement to hatred, religious intolerance - it's all there. So what is the solution? You would prefer people just ignore it?

By asking "In your opinion Geoff have the Arabs done nothing right?" you seem to be saying "Geoff, Geoff, this is all normal, all states do this." Well, no. They don't. They don't permit this kind of vitriol and where it occurs they stamp it out. There is no way in hell you could possibly get a show like "Knight Without a Horse" (relating to the blood libel) on US TV. It would be shot down immediately and the producers reported to the law. Similarly, a TV host explaining just how thick a stick you can beat your wife with would shortly find himself behind bars. It's that simple. I fail to see why you can't understand this.

Asking whether Arabs (and again, Arabism is simply not the issue) have done nothing right is a play to egalitarianism, which masks the issue. If you're down to employing this argument already, then I'd say we have little common ground, and nothing to debate.

Geoff
 
GeoffP said:
Zak, Zak:

Of course they've done right. I'm not worried about the right things, but only the evil things.

I think you really misunderstand the issue, whether deliberately or otherwise. Rabid antisemitism on a state-owned or state-regulated media service does not correspond to simple, random variation in national opinion. These services are seen by tens of millions of people all over the Middle East. In states where media broadcasts are controlled by the state, such broadcasts represent the policy of that government with respect to the Jews. And the stuff that MEMRI finds is not "perceived to exist", lest those pesky Jews can project their evil onto Syrian, Saudi and Jordanian TV by the mere act of mental energy. Was that your position?

What is spewed out of mosques and media in many islamic countries contains horrifying, evil, sickening messages. There is enough that MEMRI has no trouble finding it. Blood libel, Quranic incitement to hatred, religious intolerance - it's all there. So what is the solution? You would prefer people just ignore it?

By asking "In your opinion Geoff have the Arabs done nothing right?" you seem to be saying "Geoff, Geoff, this is all normal, all states do this." Well, no. They don't. They don't permit this kind of vitriol and where it occurs they stamp it out. There is no way in hell you could possibly get a show like "Knight Without a Horse" (relating to the blood libel) on US TV. It would be shot down immediately and the producers reported to the law. Similarly, a TV host explaining just how thick a stick you can beat your wife with would shortly find himself behind bars. It's that simple. I fail to see why you can't understand this.

Asking whether Arabs (and again, Arabism is simply not the issue) have done nothing right is a play to egalitarianism, which masks the issue. If you're down to employing this argument already, then I'd say we have little common ground, and nothing to debate.

Geoff

I asked you the question "whether the Arabs do anything right" which they rarley do in my opinion, because you cant seem to find any positives to draw from this. As you know i think the Arab governments in the MIDEast are a despicable bunch and i despise them, however we must be able to draw some positives rather than negatives. It appears to me that you can only find fault from the Arabs and seem to think the israelis can do nothing wrong, which you know cant be right.

further we have to understand the situation from all points of view and all rights and wrongs. Only when Governments admit their failings and focus on the positives will the midEast situation improve.


At least the "wishy-washy" arab league did propose land for peace a few years back, i think it was the Saudi plan.

what do you think?
 
GeoffP said:
Zak, Zak:

Of course they've done right. I'm not worried about the right things, but only the evil things.

I think you really misunderstand the issue, whether deliberately or otherwise. Rabid antisemitism on a state-owned or state-regulated media service does not correspond to simple, random variation in national opinion. Geoff

do you mean it is anti israeli or anti jew? (not anti semitism)
 
GeoffP said:
Zak, Zak:







By asking "In your opinion Geoff have the Arabs done nothing right?" you seem to be saying "Geoff, Geoff, this is all normal, all states do this." Well, no. They don't. They don't permit this kind of vitriol and where it occurs they stamp it out. There is no way in hell you could possibly get a show like "Knight Without a Horse" (relating to the blood libel) on US TV. It would be shot down immediately and the producers reported to the law. Similarly, a TV host explaining just how thick a stick you can beat your wife with would shortly find himself behind bars. It's that simple. I fail to see why you can't understand this.


Geoff
Geoff,

I have never seen the "knight without a horse" but i will take your word for it. yes if what you are saying is true then this incitment should be stamped out. Mind you here in the UK i have seen films where the principle baddy is a stereotype Arab terrorist!! I dont see many films where a Non arab is illustrated as a terrorist, however that is not the point and 2 wrongs dont make a right!!!
 
GeoffP said:
Zak, Zak:


What is spewed out of mosques and media in many islamic countries contains horrifying, evil, sickening messages. There is enough that MEMRI has no trouble finding it. Blood libel, Quranic incitement to hatred, religious intolerance - it's all there. So what is the solution? You would prefer people just ignore it?


Geoff

I am gald you mention midldle east mosques and not mosques in all, as the list of womens rights i could not quantify was from a leaflet my wife picked up from our nearest msoque. At least some mosques are coming out with positives!!!! Oh yes, i am still to quantify that one!

Also i am getting the impression you are "fuzzying" the distinction between Jews and the israeli government

The Jewish people are just like any other people in other words some or good some are not so good. Please dont tie in the jews with the actions of the Israelis government, that is totally unfair to the Jews! My Jewish friends get quite pissed off when this happens.
 
Zakariya04 said:
I asked you the question "whether the Arabs do anything right" which they rarley do in my opinion, because you cant seem to find any positives to draw from this. As you know i think the Arab governments in the MIDEast are a despicable bunch and i despise them, however we must be able to draw some positives rather than negatives. It appears to me that you can only find fault from the Arabs and seem to think the israelis can do nothing wrong, which you know cant be right.

I don't know why you think Arabs can do nothing right; I do not share this view.

Beyond that, I find little to say.

Geoff
 
Zakariya04 said:
do you mean it is anti israeli or anti jew? (not anti semitism)

It is anti-Jewish.

Anti-semitism does not refer to people of Arabic background.

Geoff
 
Zakariya04 said:
I am gald you mention midldle east mosques and not mosques in all, as the list of womens rights i could not quantify was from a leaflet my wife picked up from our nearest msoque. At least some mosques are coming out with positives!!!! Oh yes, i am still to quantify that one!

Within limits they might be.

Step outside the limits and see what happens.

Geoff
 
Zakariya04 said:
Nano,

I hope we do expel all the twats who cause so much trouble and harm the delicate balance of race relations in the UK

So race relations comes down to a delicate balance like its some kind of powderkeg ready to blow any second unless tightly controlled by any means necessary. Interesting view.

Well there is another way to handle this if you take a look at the way both the US and Canada handle this type of thing. What the muslims can do is complain to and threaten the mass media to stop reporting the violent crimes that a muslim or group of youths may accidentally cause. They can do this on the basis of unfair stereotyping and even charge the media company with inciting racism. Silencing mass reporting of many instances of violent crimes and crime wave trends is a positive step in making citizens feel comfortable and safe. It would probably have been much more beneficial to the delicate balance of race relations if the government had stepped in and prevented all media reporting of the London bombings accidents. Both the US and Canada have had a small degree of altering public perception of real liberty and safety by blanking out unfortunate information. Instead what can be reported is something irrelevant, but positive. Also, to help balance perceptions the mass media also assists relations by singling out a group that proportionally has the least violent crime accidents for the most reporting and making this the majority of violence reports.
 
General James David is mentioned on the cover of Paul Findley's 'They Dare to Speak Out' book (the third edition):

From: BGJDAVID

Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:26:06 EST
Subject: Palestinians are being robbed by Israel

If the United States had any backbone, it would announce that the Palestinian tax revunes being withheld by the Israelis would be deducted from Israel's annual aid. The U.S. also needs to deduct the hundreds of millions of dollars stolen by the Israelis from Palestinian banks exactly 2 years ago. It has yet to been repaid. USATODAY.com - Israeli troops raids four Palestinian banks .

Palestinians are being robbed by Israel

By Amira Hass


Palestinians are being robbed by Israel

02/21/06 "Los Angeles Times" -- -- IT IS EVIDENTLY difficult to scrub off the sticker that is glued onto the front window. That's why when a new car from Germany or South Korea or the United States rolls onto the packed streets of Gaza or Ramallah, it generally has the big label with thick, red Hebrew letters forming the word "Checked" stuck on its windshield for several months.

The label is a mark of the special customs and security checks conducted at the Israeli seaports of Ashdod or Haifa, which serve as the main entrances for most of the foreign goods bound for the West Bank and Gaza. Palestinians import all sorts of products: water pumps from Sweden, bulldozers and boxes of corn flakes from the United States, plastic toys from China, washing machines from France and cheese from Denmark — and virtually all of them reach their destinations only after they've been through Israeli port authorities and Israeli security checks.

At the ports, Palestinian importers are required to pay the Israeli authorities the value-added tax of 17%, as well as whatever custom taxes are due on goods that come in on their way to the West Bank or Gaza. These transactions (along with direct Palestinian transactions with Israeli firms and merchants) last year yielded revenues of $711 million.

But whose revenues are they?

To judge by the actions of the Israeli Cabinet on Sunday, the money belongs to Israel. The Cabinet announced that it was going to withhold Palestinian tax and customs revenues, at least for the moment, as a response to Hamas' electoral victory. Until the money is released — if it is released — the Israeli treasury will earn the interest.

But it's not supposed to work this way. According to the Oslo accords (and by any standards of common sense and basic justice), the revenues should serve the people who ultimately buy the goods. These tax receipts are not donations of goodwill from Israel; they are not charity. This is not like, say, Dutch foreign aid money, which is given freely by the Dutch people and can be withheld if the Dutch choose to stop giving it. These are tax revenues that are due to the people in the territories where the goods are headed, and the Israelis have no right to hold them up.

Since 1994, these revenues, transferred each month from the Israeli Ministry of Finance, have made up a critical portion of the Palestinian Authority budget. When Israel briefly stopped transferring the revenues in 2001, pressure from the EU and other countries — including the U.S. — forced Israel to reverse its decision. Unfortunately, after the Hamas victory, such pressure seems unlikely.

Last year, the $711 million constituted almost two-thirds of the Palestinian Authority's revenues. (Only $383 million was collected in income and sales taxes within the West Bank and Gaza.) Even with all those revenues, there was still an $800-million shortfall in the Authority's $1.9-billion budget. Why are domestic tax receipts so low? Because the economy is in constant recession and "operates well below its potential," according to the World Bank.

What debilitates and cripples the Palestinian economy is Israel's heavy, systematic restrictions on movement within the occupied territories — hundreds of roadblocks and military checkpoints that delay, prolong and sabotage normal economic activity and, hence, potential tax revenues.

The Palestinian Authority cannot compensate for the "lost" — or perhaps it would be more accurate to say "stolen" — tax revenues.

Its Ministry of Health, for example, has been unable to pay its contractors for hospital food, equipment or medicine for three months, and is $22 million in debt. Now, with Israel hijacking an additional $50 million or so each month, the ministry will not be able to pay the salaries of its 13,000 employees. The same is true with the approximately 40,000 employees of the Ministry of Education.

In the Palestinian territories, 35% of residents between the ages of 20 and 24 were unemployed during the third quarter of 2005. About 43% live below the World Bank's poverty line, and 15% live in deep poverty — which means, according to the World Bank, that they are unable to meet subsistence needs.

By taking their meager — but undoubtedly their own — revenues, Israel does not punish Hamas or persuade it to change its positions. It simply gives the Palestinians another reason to regard Israel as an aggressive and repressive occupying power.

AMIRA HASS is the Ramallah correspondent for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

Los Angeles Times

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12014.htm
 
Palestine long live!

5453oy2ze.jpg
 
General James David appears on the cover of the third edition of Paul Findley's excellent 'They Dare to Speak Out' book about the power of the pro-Israel lobby (AIPAC and similar) on the American political system:


http://www.ajc.com/saturday/content/epaper/editions/saturday/opinion_34ff3f10162ba0a50095.html

Middle East peace rests in Israel's hands

The United States and Israel are threatening to cut off economic aid to the Palestinians unless the recently elected Hamas government satisfies three conditions imposed by Israel: recognize Israel's right to exist, forswear violence and honor previous Palestinian-Israeli agreements ("Hamas leader blasts Israeli restrictions," News, Feb. 18).

The fourth --- and most important --- condition should've been one from the United States: that Israel end its brutal occupation.

That would be one sure way to bring about peace --- and to end one's political career. Our elected officials have been in the hands of the Israeli government and the Jewish lobby for decades. There will be no peace in the Middle East as long as this continues.

JAMES J. DAVID, Marietta
 
NO MORE WAR FOR ISRAEL:

http://nomorewarforisrael.blogspot.com

From: "Richard"

Subject: RE: Middle East peace rests in Israel's hands

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:00:33 +0000

Whoever sent this is right on. For those of you who have not read Findley's book -- do so. Years ago, during the first printing we helped Paul put free copies in most of the DC area libraries. They did not last long before we had to replace them. It just happened that some nice old lady (with Israeli leanings) would check the book out and after it was due to be returned, she would should up and say, "I am sorry but I lost the book, here is $10 for its replacement" -- which did not happen until we again placed a new book in the library. That is one way to keep books out of the hands of the public. dick
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top