Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

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GeoffP said:
Sorry you got in trouble with your wife with the MSc.

I should also then ask: who are muslims to criticize Western values and principles? Who are they to riot over cartoons? Who are you to demand to know which nation I come from? And - again - why would that matter?

I confess to feeling a little insulted myself.


Geoff
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not to mention the insults (direct/indirect) you have been throwing my way!!
 
Zakariya04 said:
Geoff,

you should learn to chill out, its just fun to know where the guy i am talking to is from thats all, there's nothing sinister about it at all!!! just curious as said before, why cant you just chill a bit
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Well, you keep demanding to know, and implying cowardice if I don't post.

I don't think I'm the one who needs to chill.

Geoff
 
Geoff,

lets not start about who needs to chill, really dont take it to seriously about your nationality, i was only winding you up. winding you up is not demanding and i am not implying you are a coward as i dont know you. In fact you know more about me then i know about you.
 
Zakariya04 said:
Its strange geoff how the USA has not had a Women President yet, but even Pakistan has had a Women prime minister.

Please geoff why so much hatred, I dont see where the Quran puts any mortal man in God like or near god Like status, that is completely wrong in islam and that is one of the only differences between christians and muslims in the fact the christians think Jesus (PBUH) is the son of God and thus God.
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Really?

"obey Mohammed" Q 3: 32

"obey Allah and the Messenger (Mohammed)" Q 3: 132

"whoso obey Allah and his messenger" Q 4: 13

"those who disobeyed the messenger " Q 4: 42

and so on.

"Obey Mohammed as you would Allah" seems to be the message of the Quran. If that's not putting Mohammed as a partner with Allah, it's hard to say what would be.

And please don't accuse me of hatred, unless you have proof. I don't do the same to you, so I expect the same courtesy.

Rreligious toleraance in the Quran, you must have missed these bits when you read your Quran

The Messenger [Muhammad] believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the [people] men of faith. Each one [of them] believes in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. 'We make no distinction' (they say) between one and another of his Messengers, And they say: 'We hear and we obey: [we seek] thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys T.Q. Sura 2, The Cow. verse 285.
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But it doesn't allow Jesus to be God, as in the Christian belief. The above considers him only a "Messenger"; thus, the Christian doctrine is still officially "shirk" to a muslim, which is the greatest of all crimes in the islamic religion. So it's not reallllly about equality of religions, but rather equality of prophets. The first part of the sura also qualifies the above by referring specifically to the "believers", but Christians and Jews are also considered to be "unbelievers" later on.

The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah -that which we have sent by inspiration to you- and that which we enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in Religion, and make no divisions therein. T.Q. Sura 42, The Consultation, verse 13.
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Again - this is a two-edged sword. Who is really being abjured not to make divisions? If muslims believe Jesus was a mere man, and Christians that he was the Son of God/God, then who is "making" the divisions? Christians would say muslims were. Muslims would say Christians were. It implies nothing really as to tolerance.

and another
'We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord; We make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah in adherence and submission. T.Q., Sura 2, The Cow, verse 136.
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Again - muslims claim Jesus as a prophet, so it's no difficulty or extension of goodwill to say that they "make no difference" among the prophets. But they don't consider Jesus as God, and again that may well be the greatest crime in islam (shirk). How does this invoke tolerance of the Christian perspective, rather than Christ himself?

lets now look at womens rights and stuff,
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But none of this is codified in the Quran. "The right to get sexual satisfaction from the husband" sounds to me more like a male-driven sexual issue than a female-driven one. ("Yeah, I have to satisfy you, baby." LOL). And how can there be full participation in public life in the face of Q 4: 34, or Q 2: 282 or Q 4:11 or Q 24: 6? (And actually a good part of Sura 2)

This to me does not smack of an equitable system. Women's rights appear to exist in spite of, not because of, islam. Those places where women are allowed to dress as they want are those very same places where Western influence is strongest.

Peace,

Geoff
 
GeoffP said:
Also, what does:

"Additionally arent the israeli jews coming out with the same nonsense as saddam did when he invaded kuwait by send this was all iraq anyway!!"

Your hatred seems to be clouding your writing a bit.

And please refrain from personal insults, as I have done nothing to warrant such insults other than rational present a position with which you do not agree.

Geoff
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You accusedd me of Hatred for i dont know what either Geoff
 
GeoffP said:
Really?

"obey Mohammed" Q 3: 32

"obey Allah and the Messenger (Mohammed)" Q 3: 132

"whoso obey Allah and his messenger" Q 4: 13

"those who disobeyed the messenger " Q 4: 42

and so on.

"Obey Mohammed as you would Allah" seems to be the message of the Quran. If that's not putting Mohammed as a partner with Allah, it's hard to say what would be.

And please don't accuse me of hatred, unless you have proof. I don't do the same to you, so I expect the same courtesy.



But it doesn't allow Jesus to be God, as in the Christian belief. The above considers him only a "Messenger"; thus, the Christian doctrine is still officially "shirk" to a muslim, which is the greatest of all crimes in the islamic religion. So it's not reallllly about equality of religions, but rather equality of prophets. The first part of the sura also qualifies the above by referring specifically to the "believers", but Christians and Jews are also considered to be "unbelievers" later on.



Again - this is a two-edged sword. Who is really being abjured not to make divisions? If muslims believe Jesus was a mere man, and Christians that he was the Son of God/God, then who is "making" the divisions? Christians would say muslims were. Muslims would say Christians were. It implies nothing really as to tolerance.

and another


Again - muslims claim Jesus as a prophet, so it's no difficulty or extension of goodwill to say that they "make no difference" among the prophets. But they don't consider Jesus as God, and again that may well be the greatest crime in islam (shirk). How does this invoke tolerance of the Christian perspective, rather than Christ himself?



But none of this is codified in the Quran. "The right to get sexual satisfaction from the husband" sounds to me more like a male-driven sexual issue than a female-driven one. ("Yeah, I have to satisfy you, baby." LOL). And how can there be full participation in public life in the face of Q 4: 34, or Q 2: 282 or Q 4:11 or Q 24: 6? (And actually a good part of Sura 2)

This to me does not smack of an equitable system. Women's rights appear to exist in spite of, not because of, islam. Those places where women are allowed to dress as they want are those very same places where Western influence is strongest.

Peace,

Geoff
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i will look into this and get back to you

take care geoff
 
GeoffP said:
Really?

"obey Mohammed" Q 3: 32

"obey Allah and the Messenger (Mohammed)" Q 3: 132

"whoso obey Allah and his messenger" Q 4: 13

"those who disobeyed the messenger " Q 4: 42

and so on.

"Obey Mohammed as you would Allah" seems to be the message of the Quran. If that's not putting Mohammed as a partner with Allah, it's hard to say what would be.


Geoff
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Well its like this Geoff, Prohphet Muhammed(PBUH) for Muslims is the messenger of God who has been given direct advise/instructions from God through Angel Gabreil, so therefore to Obey the Prohpet(PBUH) is to obey God, but the Quran never puts them as equals.

Its like at work where your line manager gives you instructions who has been given instructions from the Director of the company etc..

Please can you prove where in the Quran it states that they are equal.
 
GeoffP said:
Really?



But it doesn't allow Jesus to be God, as in the Christian belief. The above considers him only a "Messenger"; thus, the Christian doctrine is still officially "shirk" to a muslim, which is the greatest of all crimes in the islamic religion. So it's not reallllly about equality of religions, but rather equality of prophets. The first part of the sura also qualifies the above by referring specifically to the "believers", but Christians and Jews are also considered to be "unbelievers" later on.



Again - this is a two-edged sword. Who is really being abjured not to make divisions? If muslims believe Jesus was a mere man, and Christians that he was the Son of God/God, then who is "making" the divisions? Christians would say muslims were. Muslims would say Christians were. It implies nothing really as to tolerance.

and another


Again - muslims claim Jesus as a prophet, so it's no difficulty or extension of goodwill to say that they "make no difference" among the prophets. But they don't consider Jesus as God, and again that may well be the greatest crime in islam (shirk). How does this invoke tolerance of the Christian perspective, rather than Christ himself?

Peace,

Geoff
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Sorry Geoff, why did i interpret it as having tolerance to all other faiths.

With Jesus being the son of God as Christians claim, this has never been stated in the Bible, please correct me if i am wrong. i think here the Christians perhaps have mis-interpreted what Jesus (PBUH) and the bible are saying.
 
That's ok: it's very deceptive, really.

I regret also to say that Jesus does indeed describe himself as the Son of God several times using either direct reference or allegory: Mark, Luke.

As for the Mohammed-Allah issue; I searched the Quran and in over half of the over 50 times obediance is mentioned it is to be to both Mohammed and Allah. (Curiously enough, in Q 24:56 one is abjured to obey Mohammed but Allah is not mentioned in the same ayah. A slip-up?)

Finally, in Q 4: 80 we have: "Whoso obeyeth the messenger (Mohammed) obeyeth Allah". A curious turn of phrase for a 'perfect' document! This qualifies as shirk: putting Mohammed on a level with Allah. Shouldn't it be: "Obey me through Mohammed" or "Obey Allah through the words revealed to Mohammed"? Sounds a little suspicious.

Geoff
 
GeoffP said:
Finally, in Q 4: 80 we have: "Whoso obeyeth the messenger (Mohammed) obeyeth Allah". A curious turn of phrase for a 'perfect' document! This qualifies as shirk: putting Mohammed on a level with Allah. Shouldn't it be: "Obey me through Mohammed" or "Obey Allah through the words revealed to Mohammed"? Sounds a little suspicious.
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That's not too different from most religions' claims that the Bible/Quran/Torah/other holy book is the word of God and that to obey God is to obey His word. Even if that word was written by prophets (considered divinely inspired) rather than directly by the deity in question.
 
Interesting point...although if Jesus was God, that would actually still work.

Geoff
 
I still dont get it Geoff, to obey the supreme being, is indeed to follow the learning/advice etc... of his follows. Again if you are right Geoff i have mis-interperted this.

Also I have read the bible on many occasions espicially the Gospels and what he means that we are all the Son of God, i;m sure you know i was goiung to tell you that anyway. Also what version of the bible are you refering too????
 
It's one thing to instruct or give the message of a god.

It's another to place oneself - if one is mortal - as an equal with that God. This seems to be what Mohammed is doing. There doesn't seem to be many places - if any - in the Quran where one is abjured to worship Allah alone, without Mohammed being mentioned.

As for us all being the Son of God - no, I didn't know that, and I don't think I agree. He refers to himself that way, that's for sure.

I refer to the NRSV version, though I fail to see how that's relevant. I don't believe there is a version in which he is not the Son of God, unless you have a Manichean copy or something.

Geoff
 
Now Geoff.

Muhammed is not God and no Muslim (that i have spoken to)refers to him as God, either you have mis-interpreted the texts or every muslim i have spoken too. A fundamental of Islam as you already know is that there is "Only One God" and Prohpeht Muhammed is his Messenger", but you know thats what muslims thinks so why are you labouring your point on this one.

If God created Man (as depicited in the Bible Quran and Torah) then we are all the sons of God, in my humble oponion.

Does not the Lords Prayer (Christian Prayer) start with "Our Father who art in Heaven"

I have mainly read the St James Version and the RSV (when i was at school), hopefully it is not dis-similar to your New Revised Standard Version. i thought it states in the RSV (not sure about the NRSV) that" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

(John 3:16 - AV)

Now do you want me to look up the meaning of the word begotten in the Dictionary??

We will proceed!!!

and i still have not forgotten about womens rights, i will be back on to this shortly
 
Zakariya04 said:
We will proceed!!!

and i still have not forgotten about womens rights, i will be back on to this shortly
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As I'm not keeping us from proceeding, I await.

Geoff
 
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