Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[nirakar]

I believe that Israel being created was absolutely the most idiotic thing the Brits ever did. They were a hated race and religion in the area who are now bombed nearly weekly, and frankly I think it was the Brits fault for the major turmoil in the Middle East with creating Israel.
The British are still as arrogant as ever and who has to pull Israel out of the shithole every time they fall in now? Thats right the US. So now when Israel starts WWIII and the US is forced to save Israel I want every American to thank the British.

According to some accounts the Brits, USA and the Soviet Union were united in pushing some reluctant UN member states to approve the partition plan. So why did the big three want Israel to exist?

The Zionist lobby had not yet become a powerful force in 1948. Shame and guilt over failing to do right by the Jews in their time of need is unlikely to have swayed Churchill, Truman, and Stalin each off whom have solid credentials as ruthless killers.

I need a RealPolitik motivation for the actions off leaders who live in a RealPolitik mindset; and I have an explanation: Average Generals are known to often fail by preparing to fight the last previous big war rather than preparing for the future as it unfolds; political leaders should be expected to fail in the same fashion. One important way in which Germany and Japan were defeated was to deny them access to oil. Fifteen years after being defeated in WW1 Germany came back for WW2 so in 1948 we can assume Stalin and Churchill and Truman were preparing to fight Germany and Japan in WW3. The Brits had already betrayed the Arabs on their promise to liberate them in exchange for their support against the Turks in WW1 and the Brits wanted to exploit Arab oil so preparations needed to be made for the Arabs to be allied with Germany and Japan for WW3. The three powers needed a base from which to repeatedly destroy the Arab oilfields that would be defended by Germans and Japanese during WW3. Therefore let there be Israel perfectly located and staffed for WW3.

 

[Undecided]

Truman supported Israel's creation due the fact he needed the Jewish vote in New York State in that year's elections.

 

[nirakar]

You are probably right but:

Dewey, popular govenor of New York, also supported Israel and won New York State in the 1948 eleltion. In 1948, did making Jewish voters feel like Truman was on their side require the coercing of third countries? He could have just said all the right things and saved his back channel international political capital for other purposes.


http://www.al-bushra.org/America/ch9.html
Supreme Court justices Felix Frankfurter and Frank Murphy cabled the Philippine president, threatening him with negative consequences to Philippine interests in America if his country did not change its vote from "no" to "yes." Ten U.S. senators sent him a similar threat. Seven bills which would impact the Philippines were then pending in Congress. On Friday Truman aide Clifford conferred with its ambassador in Washington. Later that day the Philippine UN delegate said he would vote "yes."
Truman aide Niles orchestrated similar pressure on Liberia, which had abstained Tuesday. Its delegate was told that if he did not vote "yes" former Secretary of State Edward Stettinius had business contacts who could harm Liberia. Stettinius contacted Harvey Firestone, a major buyer of Liberian rubber, who feared that Jews might boycott his products unless he intervened. Firestone reached Liberia's president, warning him to change the vote or he would perhaps revoke his planned expansion there. Liberia voted "yes."
Niles had Bernard Baruch warn France's government, which feared alienating its Arab colonies in North Africa, that America would terminate its economic aid if France voted "no." Weizmann contacted the French premier. It voted "yes."
Haiti was promised U.S. economic aid if it changed its vote to "yes," which it did. According to Stevens, Adolph

 

[Tali]

OK

LETS START- for this will the first of many
I am apallled that there is no one here that will stand for Israel so I will Start:
first of all, Israel dosnt ask from america help every time that there in trouble( as I have seen people write) they are a strong nation with a amazing army ( as proven in current times technologically and in past times during the 6 day war, the yom kipoor war and so on) in addition Israel today is one of the leading countries in the field of research and develepmont ( one of the many standing proofs to that is that israel is one of the few countries in the world with there own satalites).

Second of All , There have been jewish people in israel dating back hundreds of years ( disregarding the era of david and saul ) with historical records that prove that they have been living in israel since the middle ages.

third of all. many Offers have been made to the leaders of the palastiniens to found there own country, and have been refused so befor you cry out in the name of unfairness towards the palastinien people , KNOW ALL THE FACTS

 

[Undecided]

first of all, Israel dosnt ask from america help every time that there in trouble

She doesn’t have to she gets aid every year, to the tune of what? $3 billion? Israel exists out of subsidy. Without US aid Israel would be a third world nation like North Korea struggling to maintain military superiority.

they are a strong nation with a amazing army

No question but this has to do with legitimizing a immoral state?

addition Israel today is one of the leading countries in the field of research and develepmont

As was Nazi Germany…point being?

( one of the many standing proofs to that is that israel is one of the few countries in the world with there own satalites).

North Korea tried…and Iran will be sending up two this year as well, point being again?

Second of All , There have been jewish people in israel dating back hundreds of years ( disregarding the era of david and saul ) with historical records that prove that they have been living in israel since the middle ages.

Sure but they didn’t identify themselves as Zionists, but Arabs who happened to be Jews. Think about that for a while, chances are you won’t get it.

third of all. many Offers have been made to the leaders of the palastiniens to found there own country, and have been refused so befor you cry out in the name of unfairness towards the palastinien people , KNOW ALL THE FACTS

I know much more then you obviously, and if the world were that easy we wouldn’t need forums. Tell me…during the peace process in the 90’s why was Israel increasing her settlement activity? Is that conducive to peace? I’ll eagerly awaiting ur reply.

 

[Brian Foley]

Israel caught redhanded wrecking peace ?

Lebanon Militants Fire Rockets Into Israel
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4783694,00.html

Actually, the Lebanese Militants didn't attack Israel , the rockets were traced back to an IDF base and after exposure, blamed it on a weapons test accidental misfire .

Shells hit north as test by weapons manufacturer goes awry
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/537273.html

In other words what really happened was someone got caught red-handed faking an attack on Israel.

Israel Warns Militants May Sabotage Summit
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4100336

TRANSLATION : Israeli agent provocateurs will fire a few rockets over the apartheid wall killing unwary Israeli women and children and blame the Palestinians for it . The object to derail the peace summit that Israel does not want.

 

[Karmashock]

why wouldn't the iraelis want peace?

peace is in their interest and NOT in the interest of the opposition.

 

[Brian Foley]

Israel cant have peace , because a comprehesive , unilateral peace agreement with the Palestinains would mean a right of return for all Palestinians . Like Apartheid South africa before it it could only exist in turmoil and bloodshed when the chaos ends so did Apartheid South Africa . Like Israel its demise will be a peaceful settlement , thats why it nust be resisted .

 

[Karmashock]

Ok, right there... that's never going to happen no matter what. So just conceed that. They're not going to let you destroy their country.

and just cus' it's relevant.
http://www.conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html

 

[mountainhare]

why wouldn't the iraelis want peace?

The average Israeli citizen wants peace. Sadly, the people higher up (aka. Israeli administration) only want another 'piece' of Palestinian land.

They're not going to let you destroy their country.

It's got nothing to do with destroying Israel. It's got to do with them getting the hell off occupied territory, as several UN resolutions have DEMANDED they do (Oh wait, I forgot, you couldn't care less what the UN says, even when it is attempting to keep the peace.). It's got everything to do with them to stop expanding settlements, stop destroying homes, stop expropriating land, and stop removing civilians by force, all which are gross human rights violations

 

[Brian Foley]

It will happen , Isreal will disappear , the Palestinians alone in the territories will out number the Jews within 10 years . Add to that the growing 1.5million Arabs in Israel proper , the fact that Israeli jews are leaving Israel en masse and Americas deterioating economy cant fund this Zionist experiment much longer and Israels worsening economy the future mirrors Apartheid South Africa my advice to any Jew living in Israel is over the years learn Arabic .

 

[Muhlenberg]

Hutu and Tutsi. Sad but why the great concern? I don't get why the same people who defended Saddam, who ignore the Lao gai and slavery in the Sudan are so concerned about Palestinians.

 

[Brian Foley]

Hutu and Tutsi. Sad but why the great concern? I don't get why the same people who defended Saddam, who ignore the Lao gai and slavery in the Sudan are so concerned about Palestinians.

What the hell have the Palestinians done to deserve such barbaric treatment ? 3.5 million live in the human cages of the territories , 1.5 million more reside in refugee camps , 1 million have died since 1948 due to this Zionist experiment in manifest destiny ! My qusetion to you why are the Palestinians forgotten and why do the Jews who continually throw up the holacaust justify this racist treatment of them ?

 

[Karmashock]

It will happen , Isreal will disappear , the Palestinians alone in the territories will out number the Jews within 10 years . Add to that the growing 1.5million Arabs in Israel proper , the fact that Israeli jews are leaving Israel en masse and Americas deterioating economy cant fund this Zionist experiment much longer and Israels worsening economy the future mirrors Apartheid South Africa my advice to any Jew living in Israel is over the years learn Arabic .

See, you don't want peace. You wan't israel destroyed. That would be like me saying "the way for israel to get peace is to kill everyone around them and double their territory".

Well, this is why they won't agree to these asinine "peace" proposals. They're suicide notes. Come to the table that will let both live in peace, or don't pretend to want it.

 

[Brian Foley]

See, you don't want peace. You wan't israel destroyed. That would be like me saying "the way for israel to get peace is to kill everyone around them and double their territory".

Well, this is why they won't agree to these asinine "peace" proposals. They're suicide notes. Come to the table that will let both live in peace, or don't pretend to want it.

Palestine existed until 1948 and was itself DESTROYED by Zionism , why is that fact always forgotten ? The Palestinians are the hard done by injured party here not the Jews ! And yes I would like Israel destroyed as it is a racist entity and Zionism is a racist philosophy based on the "chosen one" theory . It is the Palestinians who wish peace because they are a totally undefended people .

 

[Karmashock]

Palestine never existed as an independent state and has been the property of various empires for thousands of years. Israel is tiny country and it shall remain.

If you want the land, then there will be no peace. Don't pretend you want it when your only conditions are surrender. Declare your intentions so that we can just get to the buisness of war. That at least is honest.

 

[otheadp]

check out the PLO charter (google it). it's right there. "Annihilation of all Zionist presence in Palestine".
they still haven't changed that.
and, the multi-face plan of Arafat is still on the table... that's from the guy who's head of Fatah (or one of those PLO factions), who said in a recent interviewthat any peace agreement is only temporary. its real intent is to establish a base of operation on any "liberated land" from which to prepare and launch a final military assault in order to achieve their originally stated goal of "Annihilation of all Zionist presence in Palestine".

they haven't changed the PLO charter, they haven't removed the old guard hardliners or changed their mind, they haven't removed the so-called "right of return" off the table, WHAT PEACE?

if you want peace you show you want peace.
stop incitement, state your objectives, act toward those objectives, and build confidence.

Abbas did make some surprising confidence-building measures. we'll see where that'll lead.

as for Hizballah and their bullshit, Brian you really are cute... you think the Israeli government orcestrates attacks on its own civilians? tell that to the 14 year old boy who was killed in North Israel last year, or the IDF soldier demining the border of Hizballah mines, who were both shot and killed by Hizballah artilery guns.

 

[kazakhan]

you think the Israeli government orcestrates attacks on its own civilians?.

Did you even read the links? They initially blamed lebanese militants with out any evidence and I would bet if they could've covered up the test failure they would of left the militants with the blame.

 

[otheadp]

i've never ever heard of a single case like that.
even if there was such a case (there would be very few since Israel's military doesn't make such mistakes), that doesn't mean that every Hizballah attack is faked.

that's the hyperbole that my friend Brian Foley makes. read his first post.

 

[surenderer]

originally posted by KarmaShock:

If you want the land, then there will be no peace



Thats just what the Palestinians have been saying