Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[Preacher_X]

the Israeli army is the most moral army on G-d's green earth.
now, there are trigger happy and extreme "outlier" elements in every army or organization... but they are so few, and are always punished, and are certainly not the ones that represent the true IDF, its policies, its commanders, and men and women who serve with the only goal: to protect, not to conquer.

oh what a joke. so what your a bit niceer them America in Fallujah?

the trigger happy soldiers in the IDF are never punished. Also Israel is conquering.

Israel invades countries and then "settles" in it. a good example of colonism. firstly Israel invaded Palestine but since you dont agree on that, Israel has "settled" in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan.

 

[M-16]

Originally Posted by otheadp

the Israeli army is the most moral army on G-d's green earth.
now, there are trigger happy and extreme "outlier" elements in every army or organization... but they are so few, and are always punished, and are certainly not the ones that represent the true IDF, its policies, its commanders, and men and women who serve with the only goal: to protect, not to conquer.

You see, Israel seeks to make life in the terroritories, has its soldiers randomly shooting at Palestinians, randomly shelling homes and schools, you call this moral?

Take your ass here and see how moral these animals are : http://www.concert4palestine.org/warcrimes/

 

[patcho]

Here's an amusing dissection of the 'palestinian' claim that their land was stolen.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14858

enjoy

 

[s t e p h]

that doesnt work our Patcho.

A) becasue the Israelies who TOOK OVER palestine from the Canaanites are not the same type of Jewish people.

B) whoever owns the land or not, the fact is that Israel has invaded and kicked out the inhabitants who are STILL ALIVE today and suffering so Israel has actually kicked people out and stolen land and killed but the Israelis CANONT say the same to the Palestinians who were living on the land AT THAT TIME.

and the Jews of Israel aren't speical or anything are they? (i say this in a non racist way but...) why should Jews have the right to create a new country be kicking out the CURRENT inhabitans becasue their LOOSELY linked ANCESTORS once owned the land THOUSANDS of years ago.

because in that case that means loads of races should be allowed that and regain their countries (infact pretty much all countries could)

 

[Roman]

Exactly Steph. If your ancestors losing land to an invading tribe was any right for you making a claim on the land, the US may as well cede everything to Native Americans.

 

[Axes]

A) becasue the Israelies who TOOK OVER palestine from the Canaanites are not the same type of Jewish people.

Debatable. Cannot be proven.

the fact is that Israel has invaded and kicked out the inhabitants

Self defence is not invasion.

and the Jews of Israel aren't speical or anything are they?

Then why do you treat them as if they are special? 10 million muslims were kicked out of india in 1947, 8 million germans from east prussia, and I can go on, none of them whining about it for 50 years. Why are the jews singled out by you?

 

[Undecided]

Debatable. Cannot be proven.

Oh that doesn’t even matter; Egypt controlled that land before any “Hebrew Kingdom” so if we are going to go by “ancient rule” Let Mubarak reclaim the land that was originally his.

Self defence is not invasion.

How was the invasion of Palestine by millions of Zionists self-defence?

Then why do you treat them as if they are special? 10 million muslims were kicked out of india in 1947,

That was a swap of populations, hindu’s left Pakistan as well so wrong analogy.

8 million germans from east Prussia

Yes but the Germans lost the land of Prussia in the most honest of ways, they started a war they couldn’t win and paid the consequences, the Palestinians did no such thing.

and I can go on, none of them whining about it for 50 years.

Are you serious? Kashmir? Taiwan? The two Koreas? Kurdistan? Armenians? Chechens? Assam? Tibet? Xinjiang? Quebec? Isr/Pal is only a drop in the bucket. Some like Quebec have been bitching for 200+ years.

Why are the jews singled out by you?

Why are Jews being blamed for the sins of sinners?

 

[patcho]

Steph and Roman completely miss the point, the article is not saying that Jews have some right to the land because their ancestors lived there, it is saying quite the opposite, that it is ridiculous to have a claim to Palestine because your ancestors lived there.

today's "Palestine," meaning the West Bank and Gaza, is, like most of the world, inhabited by people who are not descendants of the first human society to inhabit that territory

Steph, you also say,

the fact is that Israel has invaded and kicked out the inhabitants who are STILL ALIVE today

You obviously haven't read anything of the creation of Israel, or you wouldn't make such a absurd statement.

Undecided is also amongst the uneducated

How was the invasion of Palestine by millions of Zionists self-defence?

I like how you say millions of Zionists have you ever read figures of actual immigration of Jews leading up to 1948? The total amount from 1919 to the end of 1948 is approx 500-600 thousand.

 

[Undecided]

Undecided is also amongst the uneducated

I dare you to read the entire thread...and say this fit of ignorance. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would call me ignorant on this subject...don't get cocky because I can and will easily tear you down. I am not being an arrogant fuck…I am saying this because I’ve done it countless times before.


I like how you say millions of Zionists

That’s what they are…they aren’t Jews…Jews are forbidden to back to the land and since most of the Israeli population is atheist, or non-professing, calling it a “Jewish” state is ignorant unto itself.

have you ever read figures of actual immigration of Jews leading up to 1948? The total amount from 1919 to the end of 1948 is approx 500-600 thousand.

Wow…what does have to do with the semantics being used? Let’s compare an apple and orange Phalco? It could have been 30 million doesn’t change a thing.

 

[s t e p h]

Axes and Patcho

Then why do you treat them as if they are special? 10 million muslims were kicked out of india in 1947, 8 million germans from east prussia, and I can go on, none of them whining about it for 50 years. Why are the jews singled out by you?

Undecided proved you wrong nicely there so wipe that from your screen.

and i am not treating the as if they are special, it is becasue they are relevant and current.

Israel is currently occuppying land and colonising and stealing more and more Palestinian land everyday. it is also demolishing and confiscating palestinians property, it is also holding thousands of pals. in prisons including children without proper accsess to lawyers etc. also Israel only respects about 15 out of 30 human rights for Palestinians and its prisons for Palestinians have legalised policies that incldue torture. all of this is current and is getting worse every day so it is relevant and i am not pickin on Jews, also this is relavant to us becasue America and Europe created this problem and America us currently supporting Israel by giving it weapons, political support and a whopping $5 which is more them parts of the US of similar size to Israel recieve!. Israel only exsists today because of America and so far the US has spent one $1trillion one Israel

and whatever you say no one actually buys that stupid completely zionist made myth that Palestine was an empty land with no one in it (so the crusades were for nothing hey?). Yes Palestinians were slaughtered and killed aswell as millions becoming refugess.

 

[spidergoat]

refugees? Living somewhere for 50 years seems to me disqualifies them for that title. The so called Palestinians are victims of their own arrogance, prejudice and latent, reactionary nationalism, typified by their dead leader, Arafat. The US support of Israel may guarantee their continued existence, but it also prevents the mass slaughter of Jewish Israelis that would surely happen if Palestinians had their way. This conflict isn't too different from the many wars over land that have happened in the past. Eventually, the Palestinians will have to accept Israel, and Israel will have to accept Palestine as a nation, both with less land than they might wish to have. A full accounting and compensation for every injustice and percieved injustice on both sides is unrealistic.

 

[Undecided]

spidergoat

Why do you continue to even try to defend the indefensible?

refugees? Living somewhere for 50 years seems to me disqualifies them for that title.

“Jews” lived outside of the region for 3000 years…seems you just invalidated Zionism.

The so called Palestinians are victims of their own arrogance, prejudice and latent, reactionary nationalism, typified by their dead leader, Arafat.

Very nice rant, but as usual supported by lies and misrepresentations, the so called Palestinians don’t need that title to claim a right to that land. Firstly Palestinian identity pre-dates that of Zionism and Israel, secondly they productively produced goods on that land and as a result owned that land regardless of claim:

In order to justify the expropriation of indigenious populations, the British colonists came up with a distinctive rationalization, the convenient idea of ‘terra nullius’, nobody’s land…[according to John Locke] a man only owned land when he had ‘mixed his Labour with [it] and joined it to something that is his own’. Put simply if the land was not already being fenced and farmed then it was up for grabs. (Ferguson55)

Guess what the Palestinians were exporting citrus fruits in the 1830’s to Europe, they were farmers known as the Fedayheen, they had complex class structures, etc. They were, what the native Americans were not…organized society which used the land and as a result known it regardless of your (incorrect and ignorant) assertions that they were never there.

The US support of Israel may guarantee their continued existence, but it also prevents the mass slaughter of Jewish Israelis that would surely happen if Palestinians had their way.

That works both ways…some Palestinians sure, some Israeli’s as well. So if I were to use your logic, if all Palestinians wanted to kill or deport the Israeli’s ,then the same applies for Israel. Don’t talk MORE nonsense.

This conflict isn't too different from the many wars over land that have happened in the past. Eventually, the Palestinians will have to accept Israel, and Israel will have to accept Palestine as a nation, both with less land than they might wish to have.

If you read this thread, chances are that the Palestinians won’t have to accept an Israel that would no longer exist:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=43694

This conflict is different, the reason why is that when you usually have colonizers they usually multiply in great numbers being able to overwhelm the local population, this has never happened in Israel, her situation is so dire that the only way the state has a chance of surviving is mass impregnation of the Israeli population, mass immigration in excess of the differential of Palestinian children and Israeli children born, or a massive Nazi-esqe deportation of millions of people which would likely result in a middle east war. Or my alternative…one state solution…like what Ben-Gurion supported and Zionism prior to 1942…tell me?

 

[Axes]

Undecided

Posts the same material over and over on this board eventhough he has been proven wrong countless times. Thats why people on this forum tend to ignore him.

holding thousands of pals. in prisons

Can you figure out why? When you have tens of thousands of insurgents, you have thousands of prisoners once they are cought.

Oh and please show me a source stating children being held in prisons? Last i saw, a 16 year old with a bomb strapped to him was released, much less children who are innocent.

Israel only respects about 15 out of 30 human right

Its the most humane occupying power in the 20th centuary. More than France, the Us, UK and russia.

.5$

2.8 actually, but you're credebility has allready gone down the drain so who cares.

$1trillion one Israel

More like 70-100 billion.

and whatever you say no one actually buys that stupid completely zionist made myth that Palestine was an empty land with no one in it

It had 180,000 inhabitants, of which alot were willing to sell their land to Jews who gave up all they had to gather that money.

millions becoming refugess.

If only 650,000 fled in 1948, how are there millions?



This seriousely is too easy. Try looking at both sides of the fence before getting brainwashed by propaganda.

 

[Undecided]

Posts the same material over and over on this board eventhough he has been proven wrong countless times. Thats why people on this forum tend to ignore him.

Even though my material was not re-used (mind showing us what did I "repeat"?) I think the real thing that you are saying…is that you can’t refute the material and stayed away from looking like more of an ignoramus of instead of attacking my assertions you attacked me. If I post the same material as you so suggest, then why do you concurrently ignore it? You want to talk about rolleyes?

This seriousely is too easy. Try looking at both sides of the fence before getting brainwashed by propaganda.

Said the blind man...

 

[patcho]

I dare you to read the entire thread...and say this fit of ignorance. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would call me ignorant on this subject...don't get cocky because I can and will easily tear you down. I am not being an arrogant fuck…I am saying this because I’ve done it countless times before.

lol

Wow…what does have to do with the semantics being used? Let’s compare an apple and orange Phalco? It could have been 30 million doesn’t change a thing.

I picked on that because you said,

How was the invasion of Palestine by millions of Zionists self-defence?

A ridiculous statement, I'm sure you know that the arab countries rejected a palestinian state and invaded Israel on its creation. The Arab Higher Committee's spokesman said this,

The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.QUOTE] Again, Jews did not invade, is this clear??
Anyway, my point about numbers remains, total immigration was around 5/600000 How many were actually zionists? using hyperbole to such a degree is not 'semantics' as you say, its plain stupid.

steph,

Undecided proved you wrong nicely there so wipe that from your screen.

His quote applies far better to palestinians,

none of them whining about it for 50 years

, the pals. are But they are angry at the wrong people, they should condemn the arab states that rejected their state and made them refugees in the ensuing fighting.

Happy New Year

 

[otheadp]

This seriousely is too easy. Try looking at both sides of the fence before getting brainwashed by propaganda.

this guy (undicided, aka nico) is so busy wasting time beating the same ol' horse on this msg board that he's completely neglected his university work. he is obsessed... particularly with Zionizm. sometimes his diatribe is so bad i think he is an Iranian psyops guy posing as a Canadian teen. his Khomeniist rhetoric is getting more and more rediculous and nonsensical.

Zionizm is a Noble and Just cause and movement. all the smear campaigns in the world will not change that.

i've recently returned from a vacation in NYC, and to my pleasant surprise i had discovered something quite the opposite of what MSM has been reporting for the past years -- the mainstream, even the liberals, are not as hostile to Israel as is claimed. there are Israeli flags all over New York -- and i'm talking Manhattan, not Brooklyn, which is the farthest from the Bible Belt. mainstream America has not fallen for the anti-Zionist propaganda and smear of the LLLs (looney left liberals). support for Israel and Zionism is strong. the US and Israel share common values, goals, dreams, and vision. there's very little conflicting opinions. this Islamist evil, one face of which is "Palestinian" terror, will not prevail. not in psyops, not in warfare, not in democracy, not in culture of life, not in economy, not in anything, until that evil is exterminated by any means necessary. only then can "Palestinians" stop hurting.

all the hyperbole type propaganda such as the one nico uses can do is make him look like a fool, especially when his BS is [easily] refuted. just don't expect nico to get it, because that would be asking for too much.

 

[Undecided]

A ridiculous statement, I'm sure you know that the arab countries rejected a palestinian state and invaded Israel on its creation.

The only ridiculous thing here was your inability to understand english. Again what self-defence was there in going to the region? No where did I discuss the actual war...

Again, Jews did not invade, is this clear??

Yes, ever hear of the word "colonialization"?

Anyway, my point about numbers remains, total immigration was around 5/600000 How many were actually zionists? using hyperbole to such a degree is not 'semantics' as you say, its plain stupid.

All of them were Zionists because they wouldn't be moving there if it wasn't for that ideology genious. Since Judaism forbids the immigration to the land, mind explaning to me how they aren't Zionists?



this guy (undicided, aka nico) is so busy wasting time beating the same ol' horse on this msg board that he's completely neglected his university work.

Hmmm...then why am I getting a B+ average Oth? Seems sort of contradictory to what you are saying doesn't it?

he is obsessed... particularly with Zionizm. sometimes his diatribe is so bad i think he is an Iranian psyops guy posing as a Canadian teen. his Khomeniist rhetoric is getting more and more rediculous and nonsensical.

Well talking about nonsensical and diatribe mind telling me what this world is SUPPOSED to be?

rediculous

? I'll be waiting for a response, secondly I equally dislike fanatic Islam as I do Zionism.


Zionizm is a Noble and Just cause and movement. all the smear campaigns in the world will not change that.

No the only thing that changes that is facts...

the mainstream, even the liberals, are not as hostile to Israel as is claimed. there are Israeli flags all over New York -- and i'm talking Manhattan, not Brooklyn, which is the farthest from the Bible Belt. mainstream America has not fallen for the anti-Zionist propaganda and smear of the LLLs (looney left liberals). support for Israel and Zionism is strong.

As it always has been in the United States, the US has always been the most proactive Zionist state in the world. So this means nothing, because as we know NYC is very much a Zionist city through the massive migration of poor Eastern European Jewry. Although if you were to go into certain areas of the US you wouldn't find this broad acceptance, those same liberals you blast are the same people who are the biggest supports of Zionism.

the US and Israel share common values, goals, dreams, and vision. there's very little conflicting opinions. this Islamist evil, one face of which is "Palestinian" terror, will not prevail.

The problem is that Israel is the prime motivator for all this Islamic blacklash, as long as the US blindly supports the state she will not live in peace, and Israel is destined to disappear.

all the hyperbole type propaganda such as the one nico uses can do is make him look like a fool, especially when his BS is [easily] refuted. just don't expect nico to get it, because that would be asking for too much.

Oh oth, I'd like for you then to dissect and disprove my arguments step by step, I mean shit if they are that easy, and I don't want to hear the excuse that you don't have time, if its so easy it shouldn't take oh so long. I am challenging you to prove me wrong...if you aren't wiling or able...stfu.

Oh and oth and Axes you two are so predictable that Chomsky had a nice little statement about the brain dead:

When the target is activist elements…of the left, slander and abuse are permissible, argument and evidence are superfluous. In pacticular diatribe, Israel and the Middle East are really quite irrelevant, as are the facts. (Chomsky 127) .

Please continue prove me right oth...prove me right.

 

[patcho]

Undecided, when someone says "invasion" it does not generally refer to legal immigration...

Yes, ever hear of the word "colonialization"?

colonisation is when the UN creates a two states, one Jewish and one Arabic?? (of course the Jewish state was to be ~40% arab in pop., hardly a "Jewish" state)

mind explaning to me how they aren't Zionists?

Is it possible that they had nowhere else to go? Many immigrated after WW2, they did not necessarily go because they supported zionism.

Oh, and you quote Chomsky, lol

 

[Undecided]

Undecided, when someone says "invasion" it does not generally refer to legal immigration...

Most of the immigration in the 30's to Palestine was illegal, and that's when most went there. Secondly it was an invasion, the colonization of the America's was "legal" as well, but that's doesn't change the fact that it was wrong.

colonisation is when the UN creates a two states, one Jewish and one Arabic?? (of course the Jewish state was to be ~40% arab in pop., hardly a "Jewish" state)

Yes colonization, do you understand what the term means? If not then you have no basis for talking. The UN wouldn't have created shit if the Zionists did not colonize that land, they moved there from Europe established themselves in a land that was not theirs, but to me the immigration wasn't so much the problem as the decleration of a state which alienated not only traditional zionist principles, but the Arab inhabitants who were in the majority of the region's population.

Is it possible that they had nowhere else to go? Many immigrated after WW2, they did not necessarily go because they supported zionism.

Actually the Japanese wanted Jews to immigrate to Manchuria...secondly the Germans did the shit to the Jews why should the Palestinians suffer for the sins of Germans? IF anything the Jews should have gotten Berlin to Warsaw as their state, because that's what they are, Germans, Poles, Russians, etc. Not Hebrews...

Oh, and you quote Chomsky, lol

Have you even read one book from the man? I doubt it...so stop defaming one of the greatest intellectuals on Earth today.

 

[spidergoat]

the Germans did the shit to the Jews why should the Palestinians suffer for the sins of Germans?

...the only had to share a sparsly populated underdeveloped ungoverned and arid area, how is that suffering? They could have benefited from immigration, and not lost any land at all, if only they weren't so exclusionary. Besides, the arabs were on the side of facism, it was their sin, too. Many countries shared the shame of not doing enough to fight the Nazis, including the US.