Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

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Sharon is the "Palestinians'" best chance

he is the only Israeli leader alive powerful enough to make any consessions.
Peres is so old i'm afraid he doesn't have more than 5 years left -- and even he is not as powerful as Sharon.

if these 2 leaders are gone, there is nobody -- NOBODY powerful enough. "Palestinian" rejectionist groups will get emboldened/frustrated and will increase attacks, which will create a need for another Israeli leader to step up to the plate. after another 10-20 years of war a new strong leader will emerge in Israel who will be powerful enough to stand up to Israeli opposition - but by then he'll be too old too.

Sharon, the greatest General in the history of the state, is the only chance "Palestinians" have for anything.
"in Sharon we trust" :D
 
Sharon is the "Palestinians'" best chance

And so is Abbas, this may really be the last chance for peace because if this fails Israel will go so hard right it would cease being a limited democracy, and Palestine could fall into the hands of Hamas. People like you Oth aren’t conducive to peace, because you don’t give people respect that they deserve. Putting “Palestinian” in brackets is not only intellectually disingenuous; it’s a lie, and its alienating millions of people. Honestly you don’t think I can’t put “Jewish state” in quotations, because Israel is not a Jewish state, but I have enough basic respect (remember that thing you talk about but never do) to not do that.

after another 10-20 years of war a new strong leader will emerge in Israel who will be powerful enough to stand up to Israeli opposition - but by then he'll be too old too.

In 15-20 years Israel will cease to exist, unless a comprehensive peace is found which gives the ability for those to in Palestine to live in Palestine in a prosperous society. In 15-20 years time it is conceivable that the United States will be bankrupt and will not be able to support Israel, and Israel will go down the line of desperation that limited democracies in Europe went through in the 1920’s and 30’s on the road to fascism, as the only way to maintain the state. Increasing draconian measures will be put into place (revoking free of speech, political dissent, and other measures to sustain a dying state), and when crunch time comes, a possible Israeli fascist government would seriously consider ethnic cleansing or “population transfer” of millions of people. Israel in the future could very well be a North Korea, unless she wises up and gets serious about peace, because what the Palestinians have that Israeli’s don’t is roots.

Sharon, the greatest General in the history of the state, is the only chance "Palestinians" have for anything.
"in Sharon we trust" :D

I thought you were the one here that was vilifying the man as a traitor?
 
man, don't speak about what you don't know. i think in your mind Israel is like the Borg or something.. or a mysterious species.
go live there for a year before saying something goofy like "in 15 years it'll become a fascist state"

and the "North Korea" comment? please.. the same people that turned the desert into an oasis are not going to turn into a North Korea

“population transfer”
that would be, of course, the ideal solution, but unfortunaly unrealistic. maybe in 1967... Moshe Dayan had an opportunity. in fact the Arab countries, including the "Palestinians" were fully expecting him to do so.. but he didn't. it was a missed opportunity as far as i'm concerned.

but now we have to deal with the current reality and current opportunities.

and no, Sharon is not a traitor. he is a wise statesman and the best chance the country has to resolve this. some things that he does i don't understand fully, but that's because i don't have all the info that Mossad and Military Intelligence gather for him. i truly trust the man even if at times i think he went soft a little.
 
How a beleaguered, tiny Israel has been turned into a pariah state is a fascinating historical question. The answer lies in the many cultural pathologies of the Western democracies—anti-Semitism, sentimental Third-Worldism, Marxist anti-colonialism, and anti-Americanism are just a few of the irrational prejudices, bankrupt ideologies, and moral idiocies that have rendered the Middle East's only full-fledged democracy and free society into an international villain, the gnat the U.N. and the international left obsessively strain even as they swallow an endless number of murderous totalitarian camels.
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http://victorhanson.com/articles/thornton020605.html

When one of you accusses Israel of "terrorism" please step back and examine your own prejudices.

Barkhorn.
 
man, don't speak about what you don't know. i think in your mind Israel is like the Borg or something.. or a mysterious species.

No I realize that Israel is a nation that has both left liberals, socialists even, and those who are hard right and religiously fascistic. What I am saying is what Israel has done throughout her history when faced with a crisis she shifts to the right, what I am saying is that Israel is going to face the biggest threat in her history, the crisis of demographics which even you must admit is not on Israel’s side. There is an increase in religious parties in Israel, and the decrease of the power of labour, and who knows maybe even Likud may be considered to tame for Israeli politics. Israel is not a “borg” nation, it’s a dying nation to be sure, and a cat in a corner will do what it will to survive.

and the "North Korea" comment? please.. the same people that turned the desert into an oasis are not going to turn into a North Korea

North Korea turned itself from a agrarian nation into a industrial state as well…your point being? The comparisons btwn Israel and NK are startling (and I don’t care if you don’t believe me because that’s not a basis for an argument), firstly like NK Israel is totally dependant on the ideological beliefs of another, in NK’s case it was the USSR, for Israel it is the US. The US as it seems is in such bad shape economically, and her budget deficits will not go away anytime soon, the US may have to cut aid to Israel eventually (and Egypt), but unlike Egyptians, Israeli’s always have somewhere to go (that’s why Israel has no roots). Israel like NK will begin to use its nuclear stick to manipulate the international community, and like NK Israel is creating a situation in the region that makes regional powers want to get nukes of their own to defer a Israeli attack (replace Japan with Iran you get my idea). Israel exists out of subsidy, without billions in aid she would be sunk in the water.

that would be, of course, the ideal solution, but unfortunaly unrealistic. maybe in 1967... Moshe Dayan had an opportunity. in fact the Arab countries, including the "Palestinians" were fully expecting him to do so.. but he didn't. it was a missed opportunity as far as i'm concerned.

So then the actions in Kosovo, or Sudan, or Congo are also acceptable to you? Because if you are so malicious to say such idiocy then you are more then able to support the Nazi’s plan to merely “deport” all Jews out of Europe, remember in order to gage ur moral worth of ur positions, u have to make it into a universal maxim. Its very easily to say nonsense, but when confronted it isn’t so easy.

and no, Sharon is not a traitor. he is a wise statesman and the best chance the country has to resolve this.

You said he had "lost his way" or something to that effect, which essentially means traitor to the cause, over Gaza I believe.
 
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So then the actions in Kosovo, or Sudan, or Congo are also acceptable to you?
each case is different. and you have to agree that the Israeli/"Palestinians" situation is pretty unique.
i do not accept genocide, and i do not accept pointless murder. but i would have more than accepted a population transfer 40 years ago, because under the conditions of back then, it was the best thing to do. and the world of back then would have been more forgiving than today.

but as i said, it's completely unrealistic now

You said he had "lost his way" or something to that effect, which essentially means traitor to the cause, over Gaza I believe.
i thought it through, and as i said -- i don't always understand his positions but i don't have all the info that he has. plus, he is a genius strategist.
i feel sad that Jews will be expelled from their homes, but the end game is the most important thing - and Sharon will get us there.
 
each case is different. and you have to agree that the Israeli/"Palestinians" situation is pretty unique.

According to Kantian ethical theory those differences are inconsequential, because the same actions are being committed, kicking people off their land because of ethnocentric reasoning. Thus in order for you to support your stance Oth its very simple, you then support Hitler’s policies of Jew deportation. I didn’t get a A in ethics for nothing…;)

i do not accept genocide, and i do not accept pointless murder.

So then I am sure you are wiling to accept that murder of hundreds of Palestinian children by IDF forces is immoral under any circumstance? I am wiling to say that for all children on both sides, but I know you won’t because your in a cement bloc of partiality, let me guess a Israeli’s life is more important non Zionists?

but i would have more than accepted a population transfer 40 years ago, because under the conditions of back then, it was the best thing to do. and the world of back then would have been more forgiving than today.

So you would have accepted deporting people from their homes, so you can live in them? What is the difference btwn you and Hamas? Remember pushing Israeli’s into the sea?

but as i said, it's completely unrealistic now

No its not, actually if these rounds of negotiations fail, and if Israel cannot save itself from its impending doom demographically it would have two choices:

Population Transfer
One state solution


i thought it through, and as i said -- i don't always understand his positions but i don't have all the info that he has. plus, he is a genius strategist.

But he’s a traitor at the same token…understood.

i feel sad that Jews will be expelled from their homes, but the end game is the most important thing - and Sharon will get us there.

So you feel sad for 5000 settlers living in what? Half of Gaza, but not 1 million refugee Palestinians living on aid and being bombarded from the air, and gated in like the Jews of Warsaw? Ok, I get it…
 
Israel/Palestine 11the of Febuary 2005

The Sydney Morning Herald said:
Palestinian shot day after ceasefire http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/02/10/1107890323561.html?oneclick=true
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Yeah that didn’t last long :rolleyes:

The Irish Examiner said:
Israel scraps peace talks after mortar attack
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=131340072&p=y3y34x768&n=131340867&x=
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I told you so Israel makes a great pretense of wanting peace and as soon as the media leaves the scene , the IDF starts gunning down Palestinians, HAMAS , which by the way is a creation of Israeli intelligence anyway , fires mortar rounds, and Israel is off the hook while blaming the Palestinians.

Yahoo News said:
Palestinians Attack Israeli Settlements
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050210/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians
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Now read read this link very carefully the event which initiated this attack was the shooting of an unarmed Palestinian by Israeli troops on Wednesday. Now see where the Israeli spin is to blame the Palestinians for breaking the cease fire
 
If they stopped firing mortars into settlements that the Israelis have agreed to abandon and evacuate, then perhaps the Palestinians would get 'some' credibility... so far they have none... zero... zip... nada.
 
goofyfish said:
This is the place for those heated discussions.
Keep the forum rules in mind - keep it civil.
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It would be nice if all on this forum would keep this precept in mind.
 
Karmashock said:
If they stopped firing mortars into settlements that the Israelis have agreed to abandon and evacuate, then perhaps the Palestinians would get 'some' credibility... so far they have none... zero... zip... nada.
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What would Israel need to do to have some credibility? Or is credibility not an issue that Israel needs to concern itself with because the Israeli military dominance and the USA's political and financial support for Israel gives Israel all the credibility that it needs?

Both sides kill civilian noncombatants. Both sides fail to adequately apprehend and prosecute their own sides killers of the other sides civilians. Nothing that the Palestinians, other Arabs and or Israelis have done during the last hundred years justifies the killing of civilians and or ethnic cleansing by either side. In a competition of who is the bigger victim and bigger victimizer, the Israelis or the Palestinians, if the competition ignores what the Europeans and others did to Jews and focuses only on the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis then any objective judge would say that the Israelis have been the greater victimizers and the Palestinians have been the greater victims. So why is proving credible intent to create peace only an issue that the Palestinians must face?
 
Through their actions, both sides kill civilians. However, Palestinian militants target civilians, while Israelis target the militants and civilians are killed incidently. Morally, there is a big difference.
 
I hear that there are Israelis out of control with hate that don't get prosecuted when they target civilians. I hear that settler snipers have killed olive pickers and soldier snipers have killed school kids.

One source says the latest death raised to 4,725 the number of people killed since the start of the Palestinian intifada or uprising in September 2000, including 3,670 Palestinians and 981 Israelis.

Most of those Palestinians killed were civilians. If Osama Bin Laden was hiding out in a basement in Toronto Canada and the USA exploded a nuclear weapon in Toronto killing everybody would that be OK because the USA was only targeting terrorists?

If the Palestinian terrorists could kill more appropriate Israeli targets don't you think they would rather kill Israelis in positions of power rather than random Israeli civilians?

Does the Israeli strength and the Palestinian weakness make the Israelis morally more honorable?

The Palestinians have lost much more than the Israelis have in their conflict and the UN acted imorrally when tried to force the Palestinians to accept a unfair deal in 1948; but other than that I see no morral difference between the violent Israeli actions and the violent Palestinian actions.
 
nirakar said:
...If Osama Bin Laden was hiding out in a basement in Toronto Canada and the USA exploded a nuclear weapon in Toronto killing everybody would that be OK because the USA was only targeting terrorists?
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That sort of "rational" thinking has worked before:

This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the world for the common welfare cannot drop this terrible bomb on the old Capitol or the new.

He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I'm sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler's crowd or Stalin's did not discover this atomic bomb. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful.
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The above is a quote from Truman's diary dated July 25 1945.

Here for the full text as well as some other entries.

Here for the scanned originals
 
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Both sides are to blame but I tilt in favour of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are at war on two fronts.
1. Against Israel (physically, politically, for material survival)
2. Against the Arabs ( mental indoctrination of their youth, mental survival)

Israel is simple doing what has been done to it during WW2 to the Palestinians, sad how a hated peoples can so quickly forget their deadly past and their suffering only to perpetrate it on another people for their supposed 'greater survival'.

add to that israel is to face another intifada from the inside, already 1/4 of Israeli school children are Arabs!!! This means in a few decades Arabs will make a politically significant percentage of the population, and Israel being a
Zionist-Democratic(self-contradictory) nation will have a hard time dealing with this slow yet lethal 'bomb' of sorts.

visit http://www.redsoulja.tk
 
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Odd because anti-semitism isn't hatred against Jews, but really against Zionists, so even that is self-contradictory, and Jewry isn't racial so its even more stupid.
 
Israels Gaza Deception

Israel reveals new plans to re-occupy Gaza Strip
Israeli authorities revealed plans to re-occupy Gaza Strip during the implementation of the disengagement plan, while dozens of American Jews gathered at Gaza settlements on Wednesday to sabotage the Israeli withdrawal.
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=7377
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I did a post here some months ago and predicted that Israel's real goal was to figure out a way to retain both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, while making it look like that Israel was "really trying" to implement this disengagement plan .
Israel to curb Gaza media access
The Israeli army is planning stiff curbs on media access to the Gaza Strip in the run-up to the planned removal of thousands of Jewish settlers in July.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4358695.stm
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This is a terrible omen as any time Israel shuts out the media, a lot of innocent Palestinians are about to get killed. Looks like phase 1 of Israels plan to wreck the peace process is about to begin . Watch out for an incident that will be blamed on Palestinian "Terrorists" .
 
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