Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[Naomi]

"Regrettable". Right. A soldier shooting a civilian girl, despite there being no bomb, is "regrettable". How touching.

And the forced takeover of Palestinian land by Israeli forces for "a fence to defend against terrorism", defended politically by vehement accusations of the world being on the side of the terrorists when anyone gingerly dares to point out that the land wasn't theirs to begin with, is also something that would be described by your intriguingly liberal interpretation of "regrettable".

What are you, some right-wing Christian who hasn't got a clue?

 

[Undecided]

* she was in a closed military zone (i.e. she was not supposed nor expected to be there)

That’s not the point, you missed it again. It’s a habit with you isn’t it.

* soldiers suspected her to be carrying a bomb (tactics used before by terrorists)

I have never heard a 7 year old girl carrying a bomb, mind showing us?

* they shot her, and verified the kill

Not only did they kill her, they went over her body and shot her repeatedly, and that even made the soldiers there feel sick to their stomach. What was it 20 bullets in a defenseless little girl.

* then they came up close enough to see a) it was a little girl, b) she had no bomb

Shocking isn’t it.

the soldier followed proper procedures, though the death of the little girl is obviously regrettable, and not the intended result

The soldier like much of the IDF is sadistic.

So oth how is it being part of the Hamas wing of Israeli politics?

 

[Undecided]

More love from Israel:

Amnesty International is concerned about the deterioration of the human rights and humanitarian situation as a result of the Israeli army incursion in the Jabaliya refugee camp and surrounding areas in the northern Gaza Strip (including sectors in the nearby towns of Beit Hanoun and Beit Lahiya).
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The Israeli army has repeatedly used excessive force, including heavy shelling from tanks and helicopter gunships. Experience has shown that the use of such weapons and the manner in which they have been deployed by the army in densely populated residential areas (the Jabaliya refugee camp is one of the most densely populated places in the world, with more than 100,000 Palestinians living in less than two square kilometres), invariably results in a high rate of death and injury of bystanders and people who are not involved in armed confrontation. These tactics betray a lack of respect for fundamental human rights principles, including the right to life.
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Israeli forces have hindered access to medical services -- not only for those injured in the military operation but also those who need medical care for other reasons, including women who need to give birth. When able to reach those in need (they often cannot reach those in need of medical treatment) ambulances have on several occasions come under Israeli army fire.
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In addition thousands of people living in the besieged areas are also experiencing shortages of food and other essential goods.
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>put an immediate end to the use of excessive lethal force
>put an immediate end to unlawful destruction and damage of Palestinian homes and properties, roads and other infrastructure
>allow immediate access to medical care and other essential services for the Palestinian population in the affected areas
>respect the right to freedom of movement for the Palestinian population elsewhere in the Gaza Strip
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http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150952004?open&of=ENG-ISR

In the past two days the Israeli army has killed more than 35 Palestinians, including several children and other unarmed residents who were not participating in armed confrontations with Israeli soldiers. Most of those killed and injured were hit by Israeli army tank fire and at least two were killed by a missile fired by a helicopter gunship.
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Frequentreckless shooting and shelling from Israeli army tanks and Apache helicopters into densely populated Palestinian refugee camps and other residential areas in the Occupied Territories have killed and injured thousands of unarmed Palestinians in the past four years, including hundreds of children.
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Amnesty International is concerned that the Israeli army's use of excessive force in this latest incursion in the Gaza Strip will result in further loss of lives and wanton destruction of Palestinian homes and property. Reprisals against protected persons and property are prohibited by the Fourth Geneva Convention and Israel is obliged to ensure that any measures taken to protect the lives of Israeli civilians are consistent with its obligations to respect human rights and international humanitarian law.
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http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150942004?open&of=ENG-ISR

Yes the state of Israel who signs on to treaties only to ignore them, and what is the end reslt more terrorism against Israeli’s. I really don’t see why all of Israel cannot be as Oth said closed military zone? If he can justify the death of an innocent child in the circumstance then I can easily justify the death of Israeli children because all of Israel is a war zone, thus no laws right oth? I guess using oth’s logic no death in the region is ever wrong. Live with it..

P.S: I am going to pre-empt this one:

Oth would say "Amnesty international is a anti-semitic organization"

No...truth is "anti-semitic", what a sad statement when people think that hating a language means hating a non-existent race.

 

[M-16]

* she was in a closed military zone (i.e. she was not supposed nor expected to be there)

She was in a close militart zone

Settlers are in Palestinian land, so its ok to shoot them down is it?

 

[Undecided]

Well of course if we were to use Oth's logic, settlers are fair game. They are illegally settled on Pal land, and Pals have a right to do whatever they want to them. And since all of Israel, and Palestine is a war zone, there is no distinction on life. So you cannot have it both ways.

 

[Naomi]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Anti-semitic

Enough with the brainless utterings of how people "misuse" the word anti-semitic.

It is clearly defined below, regardless of what 'semitic' means.

Anti-Semitism is hostility toward Jewish people. Jew is a term used in a wide number of ways, but generally refering to either a follower of the Jewish faith, a child of a Jewish mother, or a member of the Jewish culture or ethnicity. This article discusses Jews as an ethnic group; for a consideration of the religion, please refer to Judaism.

...

People must be truly mentally challenged to need this repeated to them and still not comprehend. Snap out of the Proud_Muslim mindset and read what people say.

 

[Undecided]

Enough with the brainless utterings of how people "misuse" the word anti-semitic. It is clearly defined below, regardless of what 'semitic' means.


No it doesn’t actually that is also factually incorrect, firstly Herzl stated that Anti-Semitism should not be confused with religious persecution. So all Jewish persecution prior to Herzl was not Anti-Semitism, A-S is used to connotate that the Jewish people are a racial grouping of people (which is factually incorrect). What do we call those “Jews” who are atheist? According to that definition it cannot be Anti-Semitic, and since most of Israel is atheist…I think you get the point. Our friend oth is an atheist as well, thus what is he? Nothing but a Russian.

 

[M-16]

Well of course if we were to use Oth's logic, settlers are fair game. They are illegally settled on Pal land, and Pals have a right to do whatever they want to them. And since all of Israel, and Palestine is a war zone, there is no distinction on life. So you cannot have it both ways.

Hamas considers all of the Holy Land to be Palestine, so Israelis are living in Palestinian land, so it's ok for Hamas to kill them using Oth's logic.

 

[Undecided]

It sure is.

 

[otheadp]

they had pre-teen attackers before
many times

i can name 3 off hand
1) a 7-8 year old "palestinian" boy tried to stab an Israeli boy the same age
2) 3 pre-teens tried to infiltrate a Jewish community in Yesha with knives and guns though were killed by security forces while trying
3) the 10-yr old carrying a bomb-vest in his bag (unknowingly apparently) to transfer to a waiting party

this "palestinian land" crap - it's not "palestinian land", it's Israeli land.

the IDF's own Chief of Staff reviewed this case, and he found it was satisfactory that no procedures have been violated.
IDF is the same army who prosecutes soldiers for looting and having trigger-happy fingers.

who cares about the media wave of bullshit ... most of what you think you know was already preditermined in your head before you even read anything.
i can totally see the soldier standing there over the dead girl's body, probably with a smirk, saying something like "fuck you" and emptying a whole clip, pausing for a second in the middle
pretty disgusting. probably the same image you have in your head.
but it's simply not what happened

 

[Bells]

Oth, what did happen is that this soldier went back a second time and emptied his gun in her already dead body. This was a 13 year old girl. Not only did they shoot her from a distance, and while she was lying there, possibly still alive, they didn't pause to check that she was alive or whether she was even armed and dangerous, they shot her again... in the head. The soldier then went back to her body again and emptied his gun in her already dead body. Regrettable and pretty disgusting don't cover it Oth. It doesn't even come close to covering it. This was a 13 year old girl. A baby on her way to school. And a pig of a man shot her twice in the head when she was already lying there either wounded or dead, and then he went back and emptied his automatic gun in her her already lifeless body.

* she was in a closed military zone (i.e. she was not supposed nor expected to be there)

She was also a small child. A little girl who probably didn't even know where she was. She may have wandered in by mistake. Instead of trying to scare her off, she was shot from a long distance. The soldiers could have fired blanks over her head to scare her off. The soldiers could have gotten on a loud speaker and told her to leave. But no, they shot her from 70 metres away and then 'verified the kill' as you so charmingly put it. And how did they verify it? They shot her twice in the head and then one of them emptied his gun in her lifeless little body.

* soldiers suspected her to be carrying a bomb (tactics used before by terrorists)

Suspected? So they just killed her even though they weren't sure? My! Talk about shoot first and ask questions later. Why did they suspect she was carrying a bomb? Was her barbie school bag looking a bit full. While the tactics may have been used by terrorists in the past, the soldiers who shot her became the terrorists the moment they pressed that trigger without making sure that she was in fact carrying a bomb. They became barbarians and cold blooded killers when they went back for more shooting practice on her already fallen body. I'm surprised there was much left of her after the bastard emptied his gun into her.

* they shot her, and verified the kill

Verified the kill? What was she, an animal hunted during hunting season? How is that that you classify a murderer shooting her twice in the head at close range as 'verifying the kill'? She was already down. Maybe even dead. Possibly still alive. Instead of checking, they merely made sure that the job was complete. And you call that 'veryfying the kill'? Most decent human beings would call it cold blooded murder or an execution. But that wasn't enough. He then went back and shot her until he didn't have any bullets left.

* then they came up close enough to see a) it was a little girl, b) she had no bomb

The reports stated that she was shot from 70 metres away in the first place. I'm guessing that if you're taking that kind of shot, that you'd have a scope on your gun. That scope would show that it was a little girl. They would have definitely known that it was a little girl when they approached her body and shot her twice in the head. Don't you think that when he approached her after she'd already been originally shot, the soldier would have seen that it was a little girl? Is he that stupid that he can't tell what a little girl looks like? Even when he had approached her when she was lying there? Maybe further training is needed to teach soldiers to tell the difference between what constitutes a child and an adult? I think they may need it considering how many children they shoot and kill.

Why didn't he check if she was still alive and checked if she was carrying anything dangerous on her body. I'm sure an explosives vest would have stood out on a body that small. He would have seen the bulges. So instead of even checking to see if she was alive, he merely shot her again, in the head to 'verify the kill'. How brave he must have been at that moment. Hero soldier saves the day... shoots baby in the head after she was already lying injured or dead. And then to make sure she's really dead and can't tell on him, he goes back and shoots her again. What brave soldiers Isreal has. Sorry let me rephrase that... What amazing child murderers Isreal has.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

What cameras filming what? are you refering to the videos of attacks on US forces, interim government forces, beheadings? Are there any peaceful demos to film? Granted seeing someone get blown up or killed may be more gratifying for some.

There were camers filming the first demos!
They were filming demonstrations when people thaught it was safe to demonstrate.
They are now filming the daily dead, Childeren, women, old men.
The fact that you have no idea these demo's existed and that there are camera's filming the u.s. war crimes is simply proving my point.

Violence begets violence, there is always collateral damage, the cycle perpetuates itself etc etc.

L.O.L. So tell me O defender of... Norway, was it? What if the EvilMuslimboogeymen started carpet bomming Oslo, and then killing of dear ones and then continued to take away any hope of freedom in the foreseeable future??

Can you say then that "violence begets violence"? Is it not the NOBLE thing to defend your small family and other loved ones? And what would you trust your own small means, or the benevolence of your agressor.

EDIT; this is getting far off track my original answer stands, The wrong message.

That's no a problem being concequent shouldn't be that difficult.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Oh please. Marines did not shoot into the crowd for the pleasure of it. Militants managed to sneak into the crowd and fire guns from it, in the hopes of starting the type of resistance that eventually occured. U.S. troops overeacted to the gunfire from the crowd, but it is hard to remain calm when you are being shot at.

"I take it that you must be an American marine then....to have witnessed this."

And no, nothing of the like. There was not resistance. No one was willing to fight. The first unarmed demo was shot at. The second unarmed demo was shot at.

:m:

 

[path]

There were camers filming the first demos!
They were filming demonstrations when people thaught it was safe to demonstrate.
They are now filming the daily dead, Childeren, women, old men.
The fact that you have no idea these demo's existed and that there are camera's filming the u.s. war crimes is simply proving my point.

Any actual links are appreciated

L.O.L. So tell me O defender of... Norway, was it? What if the EvilMuslimboogeymen started carpet bomming Oslo, and then killing of dear ones and then continued to take away any hope of freedom in the foreseeable future??

After they removed Saddam when did they carpet bomb? Who did they carpet bomb? If they did was there anything that triggered that response or did they just need to get rid of some bomb surplus? Again back it up if you can please, thanks. As regards freedom Al Sistani told his followers that they should thank the americans for freeing them and then ask "when are you leaving?" and the shias are the majority in Iraq.

Can you say then that "violence begets violence"? Is it not the NOBLE thing to defend your small family and other loved ones? And what would you trust your own small means, or the benevolence of your agressor.

I know this is part of the doctrine of your faith but history in other places has shown that there are other better means of dealing with an enemy that has a decided edge over you in firepower. Were they going around killing people at random before? To pick up a gun and start shooting does beg return fire are you so blind that you cannot see this, for gods sake Bruce look around.

That's no a problem being concequent shouldn't be that difficult.

I am consequent, there are better ways to solve most crisis than to pick up a gun and start shooting. Some times it may be neccasary but not often.

What would be inconsistent would be if I said "killing this person was wrong, but it is fine if you kill that person"

 

[surenderer]

I am consequent, there are better ways to solve most crisis than to pick up a gun and start shooting. Some times it may be neccasary but not often.

So Path when WOULD violence be an appropiate response? Defending your family? or how about your Homeland? or how about defending your nation against invasion? would those be appropiate times?

 

[path]

Sure if someone is attacking your family etc but that was not what we had in iraq was it? The violence is getting worse and more people are getting killed as this intensifies.

 

[surenderer]

Sure if someone is attacking your family etc but that was not what we had in iraq was it? The violence is getting worse and more people are getting killed as this intensifies.

I think that with 13 years of sanctions....the stealing of Iraqi oil........the killings of 10-15k innocent civilians......all over 9-11 which no Iraqi had anything to do with......I think that is Exactly what we have in Iraq.

 

[path]

Yeah they are really working on making life better aren't they? Come to think of it why don't you tell me who has killed more of your fellow muslims in Iraq in the last 5 months the freedom fighters supposedly protecting thier homes or US occupation forces?

Here is some freedom fighting from this weekend

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Churches-Bombed.html
Five Churches Bombed in Baghdad
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: October 16, 2004

Filed at 2:09 a.m. ET

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- A string of bombs exploded at five churches across Baghdad early Saturday though no casualties have been reported, the Iraqi Interior Ministry said.

The explosions rang out in quick succession over an hour and half starting at 4 a.m. at St. Joseph Church in the Nafaq Al-Shurta area, said ministry spokesman Col. Adnan Abdul-Rahman.

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The other churches hit were St. Jacob's Church and
St. George's Church in the Doura neighborhood, the Church of Rome in the Karrada neighborhood and St. Thomas Church in the Mansour area.

Abdul-Rahman said the churches all had some exterior damage, with windows blown out.

U.S. officials have been bracing for a wave of insurgent violence with the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which began Friday.

In August, coordinated attacks hit four churches in Baghdad and one in Mosul, killing at least seven people and wounding dozens more in the first significant strike against Iraq's minority Christians since the U.S. invasion began last year.

Iraq's community of 750,000 Christians has grown increasingly anxious at the rise of Islamic fundamentalism since the ouster of Saddam Hussein last year. Hundreds have fled to neighboring Jordan and Syria.

Senior Muslim leaders have condemned the violence, trying to quell Christian fears they were being routed from the country.

more freedom fighters from earlier


http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/world/newsid_3194000/3194449.stm

Four people have been arrested over a bomb attack at a holy shrine in Iraq which killed at least 95 people.
The four men are reported to have admitted to the bombing.

The local governor said two of the men were supporters of Saddam Hussein.


Click here to find out who the Shia Arabs are

Crowds have gathered at the scene of the blast - the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf - to prepare for the funerals of many of the victims.

A BBC reporter said the crowds were blaming Saddam's supporters for the blast but also blame Americans for not protecting them properly.

United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has called for Iraq's many political and religious groups to be calm.

Attacking iraqis undoubtedly on thier way out to attack and oppress someone's home and kidnap thier children.


http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- A mortar attack on an Iraqi National Guard headquarters north of Baghdad on Tuesday killed four guardsmen and wounded 80 others, the U.S. military said. The director of CARE International in Iraq was kidnapped in the latest attack targeting humanitarian organizations.

The guardsmen were lined up in formation when six mortars hit the National Guard offices in an early morning attack in Mashahidah, 25 miles north of Baghdad, said international officials and National Guard officers under condition of anonymity.

The U.S. military cited the Iraqi Defense Minister as saying four guard members were killed and 80 others wounded. The military said multinational forces helicopters helped ferry out the wounded.

The Iraqi National Guard has been a frequent target of insurgents trying to undermine U.S.-led security efforts ahead of November national elections.

you know the story there are endless amounts of bombings and iraqis bearing the brunt of it including all those children a few weeks ago. By the way why are the freedom fighters bombing sewage treatment plants and other infrastructure targets that mostly benefit thier own fellow iraqis? Are these really examples of people defending themselves and thier country? But hey if the quran prescribes violence as the best solution to your problem who am I to disagree right.

 

[surenderer]

Yeah they are really working on making life better aren't they? Come to think of it why don't you tell me who has killed more of your fellow muslims in Iraq in the last 5 months the freedom fighters supposedly protecting thier homes or US occupation forces?

Here is some freedom fighting from this weekend



more freedom fighters from earlier


http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/world/newsid_3194000/3194449.stm


Attacking iraqis undoubtedly on thier way out to attack and oppress someone's home and kidnap thier children.


http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME


you know the story there are endless amounts of bombings and iraqis bearing the brunt of it including all those children a few weeks ago. By the way why are the freedom fighters bombing sewage treatment plants and other infrastructure targets that mostly benefit thier own fellow iraqis? Are these really examples of people defending themselves and thier country? But hey if the quran prescribes violence as the best solution to your problem who am I to disagree right.

Cheap Shots and unecessary sarcasm Path but thats ok....oh yea and Im sure that the US has killed more Iraqi's than anyone else there has. I dont know who is bombing Sewage Plants and why they are but untill those totals match the 10-20k dead from bombings and the 1million from sanctions then your case is weak...you see you cant tell me who is doing the car bombs in Iraq....could be the US to keep the country unstable to justify there presence.....could be Israeli's.......could be Iranians......I somehow doubt it's your ordinary Iraqi who NEEDS these things to survive. I never said that everyone their is fighting as freedom fighters but I do say that I would bet that most of them are. Their are "bad apples" in every bunch(just like in the US military) Why bring Islam into this? This is an occupation topic not a religous one right? does every argument have to fall back into violence in the Koran with you? Since there are no car bombings goin on in the UK or the US right now means that your hate-speech about muslim violence is nothing but parinioa and has no fondation....please remember Path that terrorism isnt something that only happens to YOU the West has supported and directly given plenty of it themselves....since you wanna bring the Koran up though:


2.11] And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.
[2.12] Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.


Sounds like the West to me

 

[Undecided]

i can name 3 off hand
1) a 7-8 year old "palestinian" boy tried to stab an Israeli boy the same age
2) 3 pre-teens tried to infiltrate a Jewish community in Yesha with knives and guns though were killed by security forces while trying
3) the 10-yr old carrying a bomb-vest in his bag (unknowingly apparently) to transfer to a waiting party

Merely telling us means nothing, showing means everything.

this "palestinian land" crap - it's not "palestinian land", it's Israeli land.

LOL! Oh no, in no way is it Israeli land because no on recognizes it as such. Is the Kuril Islands Japanese, even though the Russians own it but the Japanese claim it? Sorry but the green line of 1948 clearly denoted where Israel’s borders would be, her illegal annexation of land in 1967 was just that illegal, and thus not Israeli.


i can totally see the soldier standing there over the dead girl's body, probably with a smirk, saying something like "fuck you" and emptying a whole clip, pausing for a second in the middle
pretty disgusting. probably the same image you have in your head.
but it's simply not what happened

How do we know, the soldiers that were there were disgusted at the actions of the soldier. It was on the CBC, I don’t have time to look for it. Obviously he took much enjoyment in shooting up a girl 20 times! Why did he shoot her 20 times at close range? That’s Masochism if anything else; please oth the IDF is not mother Teresa incarnate.