So there is no difference between nationalism and Zionism?
Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict
- Thread starter goofyfish
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It doesn't belong to any other state entity either, it exists in legal limbo. Before Israel it also didn't belong to anyone,
It belonged to Egypt, and Jordan who gave up their claims to the Palestinians. So no that is a falsehood. Secondly now Israel has accepted that those lands are Palestinian land since 1993, the same as the Pals have accepted Israel as Israel. So its not in legal limbo, it is not Israeli land end of story.
most Palestinians were the equivalent of squatters. It's like some homless guy defending his little plot under a bridge, because he was there as long as he can remember.
Listen you can spew all your racism that is ok, but remember it speaks volumes about your Zionist mindset. Firstly do you think that Whites should re-colonize Africa? Do you think Apartheid was a good policy (which you obviously do since you support it in Israel)? Do you understand that throughout history the fight for independence from imperialism, and colonization has been a force greater then mere economics. Let me put it like this, why would an American or French Jew move to Israel? Surely it’s not because of economics, so aren’t they just as stupid as the Pals (using your logic)?
You don't have too, but you chose too, I'm just a disembodied voice on the internet.
Ditto…
I'm not an anti-semite, I just poke fun at religious literalists, the orthodox movement is fairly recent and a minority among Jewish people.
Of course you aren’t an “anti-Semite” because no such thing exists. I mean tell me Spider, if I went to a pro-Israel rally and started making fun of Orthodox Jews like you did, and like Oth calling them monkeys, would I be considered an “anti-Semite”? If so, then yes you are an“ anti-Semite”.
I don't hate them either, like Jesus, I take a larger, humanist view.
You do hate them, otherwise you wouldn’t belittle their traditions, which are Jewish traditions. Do I have to bring the quote again oh our atheist American:
Look I am not the one who will be suffering eternally for betraying God, its you. You’d better hope to high heaven that there is no such thing as that very heaven. You see just because they are the minority doesn’t mean they are wrong, usually in history the minority have been right in the end. They go against the disease that is group-think. They are Jews, you are nothing.
I didn't say immoral, just that the rights of the majority sometime supercede the rights of an individual, like with the incarceration of Typhoid Mary.
That means immoral, the opposite of right, is injustice. So yes you do think its immoral, and you support that same immorality. Thus the purest form of evil.
In the same family, some people are religious, and some are not.
Sorry that makes no sense; a family would be one regardless of their beliefs. Jews don’t have such a family because the only thing that bonds them together is their religion. Arabs are Arabs whether or not they are Christian, Jew, or Muslim. An Iroquois is an Iroquois no matter their religion. Look this is an unrectifiable part of your argument, you cannot argue against this. Could I be a Jew without being circumcised if not, then this family thing is nothing more then Bull shit.
That some Jews have independant views on Judaism, or even convert to another religion doesn't take away from the fact that the majority do feel a religious connection to Israel based on Judaism. By the way the genetic similarity is also there, but also not universal.
Genetic similarity not there, because it’s not exclusive. I probably have that gene, like millions of Christian Europeans, so can we colonize Israel too? Please stop with the nonsense, I am not considered a Jew because I am not religious Jewish. I don’t care what some idiotic reality repressing pseudo-Jews think, the reality is simple. They have can have their mere belief because that’s all it is.
That doesn't seem to be the consensus among most world leaders. It would in effect, destroy Israel and replace it with a majority Palestinian state.
If you think like that it would of course, but the argument I make is that we have to create a situation where a majority Arab state will not jeopardize the rights of you ppl (without being Jewish, or Israeli I have no idea what to call you showing that your bond is dependant on externalities). Political moderation and a long period of international rule should bring the two sides together. Look Israel is going too inundated with Arabs anyways, in what? Less then 25 years the state of Isreal should cease to exist anyways, why delay the inevitable?
The US supports Israel, not because of some shady Zionist influence, or wacko Christian ideas, but because they are a democratic country, with a free press and fair elections.
LOL! Ok…tell that to Arabs who have less rights, and cannot marry “Jews”. America supports Israel because of the large American Jewish electorate and money, and now with PNAC which is dominated by Zionists that influence has only grown. This idea that Israel is a democratic state is sad, and ridiculous. South Africa was a democracy too…
It belonged to Egypt, and Jordan who gave up their claims to the Palestinians. So no that is a falsehood. Secondly now Israel has accepted that those lands are Palestinian land since 1993, the same as the Pals have accepted Israel as Israel. So its not in legal limbo, it is not Israeli land end of story.
most Palestinians were the equivalent of squatters. It's like some homless guy defending his little plot under a bridge, because he was there as long as he can remember.
Listen you can spew all your racism that is ok, but remember it speaks volumes about your Zionist mindset. Firstly do you think that Whites should re-colonize Africa? Do you think Apartheid was a good policy (which you obviously do since you support it in Israel)? Do you understand that throughout history the fight for independence from imperialism, and colonization has been a force greater then mere economics. Let me put it like this, why would an American or French Jew move to Israel? Surely it’s not because of economics, so aren’t they just as stupid as the Pals (using your logic)?
You don't have too, but you chose too, I'm just a disembodied voice on the internet.
Ditto…
I'm not an anti-semite, I just poke fun at religious literalists, the orthodox movement is fairly recent and a minority among Jewish people.
Of course you aren’t an “anti-Semite” because no such thing exists. I mean tell me Spider, if I went to a pro-Israel rally and started making fun of Orthodox Jews like you did, and like Oth calling them monkeys, would I be considered an “anti-Semite”? If so, then yes you are an“ anti-Semite”.
I don't hate them either, like Jesus, I take a larger, humanist view.
You do hate them, otherwise you wouldn’t belittle their traditions, which are Jewish traditions. Do I have to bring the quote again oh our atheist American:
Look I am not the one who will be suffering eternally for betraying God, its you. You’d better hope to high heaven that there is no such thing as that very heaven. You see just because they are the minority doesn’t mean they are wrong, usually in history the minority have been right in the end. They go against the disease that is group-think. They are Jews, you are nothing.
I didn't say immoral, just that the rights of the majority sometime supercede the rights of an individual, like with the incarceration of Typhoid Mary.
That means immoral, the opposite of right, is injustice. So yes you do think its immoral, and you support that same immorality. Thus the purest form of evil.
In the same family, some people are religious, and some are not.
Sorry that makes no sense; a family would be one regardless of their beliefs. Jews don’t have such a family because the only thing that bonds them together is their religion. Arabs are Arabs whether or not they are Christian, Jew, or Muslim. An Iroquois is an Iroquois no matter their religion. Look this is an unrectifiable part of your argument, you cannot argue against this. Could I be a Jew without being circumcised if not, then this family thing is nothing more then Bull shit.
That some Jews have independant views on Judaism, or even convert to another religion doesn't take away from the fact that the majority do feel a religious connection to Israel based on Judaism. By the way the genetic similarity is also there, but also not universal.
Genetic similarity not there, because it’s not exclusive. I probably have that gene, like millions of Christian Europeans, so can we colonize Israel too? Please stop with the nonsense, I am not considered a Jew because I am not religious Jewish. I don’t care what some idiotic reality repressing pseudo-Jews think, the reality is simple. They have can have their mere belief because that’s all it is.
That doesn't seem to be the consensus among most world leaders. It would in effect, destroy Israel and replace it with a majority Palestinian state.
If you think like that it would of course, but the argument I make is that we have to create a situation where a majority Arab state will not jeopardize the rights of you ppl (without being Jewish, or Israeli I have no idea what to call you showing that your bond is dependant on externalities). Political moderation and a long period of international rule should bring the two sides together. Look Israel is going too inundated with Arabs anyways, in what? Less then 25 years the state of Isreal should cease to exist anyways, why delay the inevitable?
The US supports Israel, not because of some shady Zionist influence, or wacko Christian ideas, but because they are a democratic country, with a free press and fair elections.
LOL! Ok…tell that to Arabs who have less rights, and cannot marry “Jews”. America supports Israel because of the large American Jewish electorate and money, and now with PNAC which is dominated by Zionists that influence has only grown. This idea that Israel is a democratic state is sad, and ridiculous. South Africa was a democracy too…
Gaza girl death officer cleared
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3748054.stm
What message does this send?
:m:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3748054.stm
What message does this send?
:m:
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Bruce Wayne said:
Was that the same girl whom was on her way to school? Can you imagine if that was an Israeli schoolgirl that the Palestinians did that too? Imagine the press that would have gotten in the West. Yet the West(America) is silent about this as usual.....Now Im sure that some Israeli family will be killed outta revenge and thus the circle of violence continues
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/489479.html
From the article:
More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip. It's no wonder that many people term such wholesale killing of children "terror." Whereas in the overall count of all the victims of the intifada the ratio is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1. According to B'Tselem, the human rights organization, even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed, compared to 110 Israeli minors.
Palestinian human rights groups speak of even higher numbers: 598 Palestinian children killed (up to age 17), according to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, and 828 killed (up to age 18) according to the Red Crescent. Take note of the ages, too. According to B'Tselem, whose data are updated until about a month ago, 42 of the children who have been killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old when they died. The youngest victims are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during birth.
With horrific statistics like this, the question of who is a terrorist should have long since become very burdensome for every Israeli. Yet it is not on the public agenda. Child killers are always the Palestinians, the soldiers always only defend us and themselves, and the hell with the statistics.
Maybe now we can lay to rest that its the Palestinians who are baby and women murderers :m:
From the article:
More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip. It's no wonder that many people term such wholesale killing of children "terror." Whereas in the overall count of all the victims of the intifada the ratio is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1. According to B'Tselem, the human rights organization, even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed, compared to 110 Israeli minors.
Palestinian human rights groups speak of even higher numbers: 598 Palestinian children killed (up to age 17), according to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, and 828 killed (up to age 18) according to the Red Crescent. Take note of the ages, too. According to B'Tselem, whose data are updated until about a month ago, 42 of the children who have been killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old when they died. The youngest victims are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during birth.
With horrific statistics like this, the question of who is a terrorist should have long since become very burdensome for every Israeli. Yet it is not on the public agenda. Child killers are always the Palestinians, the soldiers always only defend us and themselves, and the hell with the statistics.
Maybe now we can lay to rest that its the Palestinians who are baby and women murderers :m:
They are all woman and baby killers. So are the americans in iraq and the resistance fighters etc etc.. War produces casualties of all types when we start keeping a running tab to show who is more just we are simultanously justifying one sides killing over the other. Warfare is FLAT OUT the wrong way to resolve our differences.
Oh, but there is a difference.
There is a difference between a man resisting an onslaught on his home in the little means he has got and between someone coming from abroad with daisy cutters and mini-nukes.
There is a difference between someone who has decided to kill in cold blood from day one (the Haganah, ITF) and those reacting to foreign invasions.
Once someone has attacked you, you don't have the luxuoury of "Warfare is FLAT OUT the wrong way to resolve our differences."
:m:
There is a difference between a man resisting an onslaught on his home in the little means he has got and between someone coming from abroad with daisy cutters and mini-nukes.
There is a difference between someone who has decided to kill in cold blood from day one (the Haganah, ITF) and those reacting to foreign invasions.
Once someone has attacked you, you don't have the luxuoury of "Warfare is FLAT OUT the wrong way to resolve our differences."
:m:
Bruce Wayne said:
No see this is where we disagree, civil disobedience could have gone alot further and saved alot more lives than what we are seeing now. The US IS vulnerable to public opinion look at all the embarresment Abu Gharaib caused. Demonstrators and cameras would be alot more effective than bullets given the inevitability of civilian casualties.
I never said demo's were bad. In fact I would be in favor of a couple-million-march to be held if I knew the demonstrators would not be killed in cold blood.
I am not so sure the demo's and the like would be more effective. Not even those held in Europe were effective let alone those of brown people (!-see goerge carlin). And maybe you don't know this (I don't think you do) but the resistance in Fallujjah started because an unarmed demo was shot at by the marines killing 16 civilians. Another demo was held the day after they were shot at again. This was before there was any resistance!!
Come to think of it, it is more rational to trust upon (u.s) coffins than upon demo's if you ask me.
:m:
I am not so sure the demo's and the like would be more effective. Not even those held in Europe were effective let alone those of brown people (!-see goerge carlin). And maybe you don't know this (I don't think you do) but the resistance in Fallujjah started because an unarmed demo was shot at by the marines killing 16 civilians. Another demo was held the day after they were shot at again. This was before there was any resistance!!
Come to think of it, it is more rational to trust upon (u.s) coffins than upon demo's if you ask me.
:m:
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Bruce Wayne said:
That is why I said bring the cameras could you imagine the black eye the US would get for gunning down demonstrators? Have sit ins to block the roads strangle or at least hamper thier supply routes refuse to work for them etc etc. The problem is the animosity isn't universal yet but the folks with the guns decide for everybody.
very revealing Bruce, very revealing, now we get some idea of what you term "rational".
path said:
The cameras are there, they are recording. But guess what? You don't get to see the images. Not even in Europe. So who says these cameras are going to go past the sensor??
path said:
Don't you think that is rational thinking? Why?
:m:
Bruce Wayne said:
What cameras filming what? are you refering to the videos of attacks on US forces, interim government forces, beheadings? Are there any peaceful demos to film? Granted seeing someone get blown up or killed may be more gratifying for some.
Violence begets violence, there is always collateral damage, the cycle perpetuates itself etc etc.
EDIT; this is getting far off track my original answer stands, The wrong message.
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"but the resistance in Fallujjah started because an unarmed demo was shot at by the marines killing 16 civilians." Bruce Wayne
Oh please. Marines did not shoot into the crowd for the pleasure of it. Militants managed to sneak into the crowd and fire guns from it, in the hopes of starting the type of resistance that eventually occured. U.S. troops overeacted to the gunfire from the crowd, but it is hard to remain calm when you are being shot at.
Oh please. Marines did not shoot into the crowd for the pleasure of it. Militants managed to sneak into the crowd and fire guns from it, in the hopes of starting the type of resistance that eventually occured. U.S. troops overeacted to the gunfire from the crowd, but it is hard to remain calm when you are being shot at.
According to you, Orthodox Jews shouldn't be pro-Israel. Also there's a difference between a political rally and a message board. Anyway, Jews can poke fun at themselves the way blacks can call each other nigger, but it's different when other people do it. Are blacks that say nigger racists?undecided said:
One thing i hate is how there are many deaths like these and they don't create attention like this one just did, i guess its Israel's way to hide from the "terrorist" label, or no?
Also, not too long ago, a settler shot to death a Palestinian taxi driver who was going to help the settler because he seemed to have needed help, what does Israel do? Puts him under house arrest, source here.
Also, not too long ago, a settler shot to death a Palestinian taxi driver who was going to help the settler because he seemed to have needed help, what does Israel do? Puts him under house arrest, source here.
* she was in a closed military zone (i.e. she was not supposed nor expected to be there)
* soldiers suspected her to be carrying a bomb (tactics used before by terrorists)
* they shot her, and verified the kill
* then they came up close enough to see a) it was a little girl, b) she had no bomb
the soldier followed proper procedures, though the death of the little girl is obviously regrettable, and not the intended result
* soldiers suspected her to be carrying a bomb (tactics used before by terrorists)
* they shot her, and verified the kill
* then they came up close enough to see a) it was a little girl, b) she had no bomb
the soldier followed proper procedures, though the death of the little girl is obviously regrettable, and not the intended result
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