Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[spidergoat]

"To Zionists yes, Arab nationalism is blind to religion it has to be its secular."
Arab nationalism was also blind to Zionists, treating Jews that are Zionists and Jews that are not Zionists with equal violence.

"Visa Versa, the only way it is perceived to protect the Arabs is to establish an Arab state as well."
That's a nice thought, that only leaves the issue of terrorism, and the Arabs who use it to further the goal of their own type of one-state solution, a hostile Arab state controlling a Jewish minority, the same sort of situation the Jews fled in Europe. The Arabs have their myopic moral concerns, and the international community has theirs, it was the moral thing to do to let Jews establish a state.

 

[DaneMark]

First of all 50% of Israelis are with Labour, the left...
Second, Then again even the right in Israel wants peace, and Sharon's sacrifice of land, (even taking into account Hamas butchers' celebration,) is only admiring.
Third, the issue was not about 'peace' but about the vast population's backing Genocide on babies, that is only on the Arab side.

Well said, and whatever his (Preacher_X) MILITANT Jihadi opinion of peace is anyway.

 

[DaneMark]

I ask, so what if they are true? Does it give Palestinians a bad name? Certainly not, it only shows the the Palestinian support of the resistance agaisnt Zionist agression.

Wrong, it is not 'resistance', it is lowlife use of own kids as weapons, and hypocrisy when they whine on cameras.
They are the villain, and not Israeli defenders that are confronted with the moral problem of mixing kids with adult machin gunners, and Arab parents know Israelis' dilemna, use it, abuse it, and become the actual Goliath against Israelis no matter their military tool.

 

[Zero]

Apparently someone hasn't heard how Arab mothers weep when their sons go blow themselves up.

No respect for the basic motherly instinct, eh?

 

[M-16]

Wrong, it is not 'resistance', it is lowlife use of own kids as weapons, and hypocrisy when they whine on cameras.
They are the villain, and not Israeli defenders that are confronted with the moral problem of mixing kids with adult machin gunners, and Arab parents know Israelis' dilemna, use it, abuse it, and become the actual Goliath against Israelis no matter their military tool.

Please show us one incident where Palestinian parents have sent their kid to go kill Israelis.

 

[Undecided]

Arab nationalism was also blind to Zionists, treating Jews that are Zionists and Jews that are not Zionists with equal violence.

That’s true, but that’s one reason why true Jewry hates Zionism, because Zionists pretend to be Jews and thus it confuses the less educated about the differences. How can I tell a Jew from a Zionist? When Zionists go around fallaciously prancing around as Jews? Although I am happy that you finally understand that Zionists don’t equate into Jewry even you needed to be de-juched.

That's a nice thought, that only leaves the issue of terrorism, and the Arabs who use it to further the goal of their own type of one-state solution, a hostile Arab state controlling a Jewish minority, the same sort of situation the Jews fled in Europe.

The exact same tactic used by Zionists to achieve their state…so you don’t have a moral highground on this one. What do you don’t think Zionist terrorism happened? LOL!

The Arabs have their myopic moral concerns, and the international community has theirs, it was the moral thing to do to let Jews establish a state.

In Germany sure of course, in Poland, in Russia, yes I would have supported a Jewish state. In Palestine? No, there is no moral justification to establish a state in Palestine for Zionist Jewry. Firstly none of you had any connection to that land other then a religious one that prohibited such immigration. It’s very simple from a religious perspective G-d is not on the Zionist’s side, and you better hope that G-d doesn’t really exist. I don’t think it was fair that Zionists got 18% more land then their population. I don’t think it was moral to totally disregard the opinions of 1 million + Palestinians in 1947, do you think that denying democracy to millions is moral? Kicking out 750,000 Palestinians from their homes, and their land is moral? What would have been somewhat moral would have been to give the Zionists their state on what they owned…nothing more nothing less. The establishment of Israel is a crime initiated by the UN, what would have been so much better is if the UN listened to the one state solutions brought forward.

 

[Undecided]

Children and violence exist all over the world, and especially in insurgent, rebellious movements. Many nations have children fight in their armies, although I haven’t actually ever heard of a child suicide bomber (child being 13 years or younger). Violence pervades all of western society, and as DeeCee has shown quite effectively children in the US are much more violent then those in Palestine or Israel for that matter. Now I think that the initial picture that has been shown at least 30,000 times in the past two weeks with Mr. Multiple personality disorder, tells us about the level of passion and hatred that exists in the region. What that mother is doing imo is morally wrong, she is glorifying that action. I’ve never supported Pal terrorism because they are the big losers in the end. But it is a evident social commentary on how the repressed, and the disposed are wiling to do anything for justice.

 

[spidergoat]

"I don’t think it was fair that Zionists got 18% more land then their population. "

Talk of fairness and morality is suitable when both sides are sitting at the negotating table, but after an all out war, you kind of forfeit your bargaining position.
---------------------
True Jewry? Judaism like Christianity is not divided into true and untrue sects, they all think they are true, and they are all Jewish! Judaism has been blessed with a tolerence for differing interpretations, which give it vitality and strength, no one group has a monopoly on truth.

I can't blame you for identifying with the Palestinians, there is a certain romanticism in siding with losers like the confederates...

 

[Undecided]

Talk of fairness and morality is suitable when both sides are sitting at the negotating table, but after an all out war, you kind of forfeit your bargaining position.

You obviously don’t know what I am saying I am talking pre-war this was the initial cutting up of the region.

True Jewry? Judaism like Christianity is not divided into true and untrue sects, they all think they are true, and they are all Jewish!

What I meant by that are Jews who believe in their G-d… not you the revisionists.

Judaism has been blessed with a tolerence for differing interpretations, which give it vitality and strength, no one group has a monopoly on truth.

There is one monopoly on truth in all three Abrahamic religions that’s the holy books and they are pretty overt in their demands which you pseudo- Jews have spit on, and as a result real religious Jews are quite angry.

I can't blame you for identifying with the Palestinians, there is a certain romanticism in siding with losers like the confederates...

It will be Israel who will lose out in the end, I don’t worry about the Pals, as much as I do for the Israeli’s.

 

[Preacher_X]

I know why it’s a myth, because it was only 4 countries directly attacking the newly independent Israel, not 5! It was also many more armies then 5.

I'm wondering if I should move this to history subforum, this is a historical subject, but the idea of lies in history of this magnitude are very provocative, I guess next we will be seeing “the Germens did not start WW2 it was the other way around, and the concentrations camps forget those, all media lies”

its not a myth becasue Zionists media is NOT saying that these Arabs invaded they are just leading us to believe that and using funny words, they are not lying to us so it is true that Arabs did NOT invade Israel in 1948 and Zionist media is just leading us to believ that.

 

[Preacher_X]

First of all 50% of Israelis are with Labour, the left...
Second, Then again even the right in Israel wants peace, and Sharon's sacrifice of land, (even taking into account Hamas butchers' celebration,) is only admiring.
Third, the issue was not about 'peace' but about the vast population's backing Genocide on babies, that is only on the Arab side.

they back genoicde of babies? i could make a wild claim about Israelis aswell. your argument is baseless.

and Israel does not want peace. it might settle for it now becasue it ahs to but on the long run, it wants, the W.Bank, Gaza, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria and to demolish Al Aqsa Mosque and build a Jewish Temple over it this is what Israel wants and this is what is in the heart of every Zionist. and why is Sharons land concession generous? Israel didnt seem to think that Jews having 55% of the land and Pals losing 54% of the land and Jews having 18% more land their population was generous. instead you defied it and took more land. and also how is it generous giving people parts of land that was 100% originally theirs unless you give it ALL back. Israel/Sharon didnt seem to generous when it attacked Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and took more land then it should of and defied hundreds of internatioal resoloutions.

next, Israel is only making these temporary land concessions. for example the reason for the Gaza pullout is becasue in 15 years from now the Arab population will be greater then Jewish popultion so with democracy in place, there would be NO Jewish sate anymore, pulling out from Gaza effectively removed 1.3 million Arabs from this equation and stalled this process a few decades.

your lies are easy to bust Balanced, Kiwi123, and Danemark as i know you are all the same people, ?

 

[ElectricFetus]

that funny Preacher_X, there was Zionist media in 1948?

 

[Preacher_X]

media is telling us that now not then i dont think.

i dont think that claim was made in 1948 and even if it was, America, Britain, France and Russia all helped Israel to set uo their state. how much more media do u want?

 

[spidergoat]

" it is true that Arabs did NOT invade Israel in 1948 and Zionist media is just leading us to believ that. "

True, it wasn't independent, and thus not technically Israel until after the war ended. Semantics.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Actually few countries help Israel in fact Britain was providing some support to other side.

 

[otheadp]

Horrible torture of Palestinians at IDF checkpoints

Horrible torture of Palestinians at IDF checkpoints

An Israeli Army soldier comforts a Palestinian woman at the Kalandia checkpoint between Jerusalem and the West Bank town of Ramallah Wednesday Aug. 11, 2004. A West Bank militant detonated a large bomb near Kalandia checkpoint Wednesday, killing two Palestinian men and wounding some 13, including 10 Palestinian civilians and three Israeli border policemen. (AP Photo/Nasser Shiyoukhi)

some more grusome photos of IDF torturers may be found here.

i think the "point of discussion" is obvious. the Arab media's version of events at checkpoints is lies and distortions, vile propaganda, demonization, and ... here's an overused word for the cynics: biased reporting!

sure some abuse happens sometimes, but it's forbidden and is punished. just as there are bad apples in any civilian police force in any given city, just as there are some deserters in any army, just as there are some kids in every high school that do coke

however, most cops on every police force are good, most soldiers in armies around the world are not traitors, and most kids in highschool don't do coke.
just as the above is true, same thing for IDF soldiers at checkpoints whose sole job is to prevent suicide bombers from massacaring bus riding kids.

after 4 years of intifada and a demonization media campagin, the truth is finally starting to come out in this "Palestinian" terror campaign

 

[M-16]

i think the "point of discussion" is obvious. the Arab media's version of events at checkpoints is lies and distortions, vile propaganda, demonization, and ... here's an overused word for the cynics: biased reporting!

sure some abuse happens sometimes, but it's forbidden and is punished. just as there are bad apples in any civilian police force in any given city, just as there are some deserters in any army, just as there are some kids in every high school that do coke

however, most cops on every police force are good, most soldiers in armies around the world are not traitors, and most kids in highschool don't do coke.
just as the above is true, same thing for IDF soldiers at checkpoints whose sole job is to prevent suicide bombers from massacaring bus riding kids.

after 4 years of intifada and a demonization media campagin, the truth is finally starting to come out in this "Palestinian" terror campaign

The fact that there are some friendly soldiers doesn't mean that all of them are. There has been a couple cases of IDF soldiers helping out Palestinians.

Where they giving out doghnuts when they did this to a Palestinian kid at a checkpoint?

And you also talked about the Arab Media, do you have any access to it, besides the Al'Jazeera website and some other websites?

 

[Preacher_X]

i think the "point of discussion" is obvious. the Arab media's version of events at checkpoints is lies and distortions, vile propaganda, demonization, and ... here's an overused word for the cynics: biased reporting!

arab media, i can you a kabillion links to CNN, FOX, and other zionists media aswell as BBC, ITV etc.

is the Guardian, Arabic dodo brain? its British...

'Speak Hebrew or shut up'

Israel's official code of ethics says troops can only use force if threatened.
But at a checkpoint near Nablus, Israeli author Etgar Keret witnessed another
code of behaviour in operation...

Wednesday August 11, 2004
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1280376,00.html

A few days ago, the philosopher Assa Kasher, who had just finalised the Israel
Defence Force's Code of Ethics, paid me a visit on the television screen in the
dentist's waiting room and explained to me, in a nutshell, how it really works.
The Code of Ethics, if I understood it right, says that a soldier can exert
force and, under certain circumstances, can even cause suffering if he does it
to protect his own safety or the safety of the citizens of Israel. An elderly
woman sitting next to me, even more bored than I was, stared at the screen and
said that was very good and if she wasn't mistaken, the IDF was the only army in
the world to take the trouble to "commission", in her words, a code like that,
and not from just any hack, but from a university professor.
If, two weeks earlier, I hadn't gone to the Haware checkpoint, not far from
Nablus, I probably would have been quick to agree with her. After all, I was
brought up to agree with elderly women. But during that purely chance visit to
the checkpoint, more the result of a weak character and my girlfriend's nagging
than anything else, I saw a different, rival code, one that might be a little
less ethical, but works like a charm. We can call it Udi's Practical Code.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1280376,00.html

 

[Preacher_X]

and yes M-16 is right, just becasue there a few friendly soldiers, are they all friendly? do you want me to post pictures of IDF soldiers running away from kids with stones? are they all like that? are all US soldiers like the ones in Abu Graihb?

however, most cops on every police force are good, most soldiers in armies around the world are not traitors, and most kids in highschool don't do coke.
just as the above is true, same thing for IDF soldiers at checkpoints whose sole job is to prevent suicide bombers from massacaring bus riding kids.

well you dont seem to have a problem with naming all Palastinians as terrorists do you? a bit of hypocrisy there otheadp

 

[M-16]

A letter by an Israeli teacher about the militarisation of Israeli schools

July 2002

Ha'aretz

If the Israel Defense Forces were to raid the Jewish elementary school where I teach they would find a disturbing photograph of a second grade boy with a real Israeli assault rifle draped over his shoulders. Similarly, were they to photograph Israeli school children on the festive Jewish holiday of Purim they would have found Israeli children dressed as soldiers, suicide bombers and victims of terror.

This is not an Israeli phenomenon of the last two years alone. We live in a culture that depends on the militarization of our children. Because our schools serve as feeders for the military, we condition our children to respond favorably to the military and to look forward to going into the army. That is, our education system, for the most part, educates for war.

Maps in Israeli schools do not indicate that in the (occupied) West Bank and Gaza Strip, there is an entire national group seeking independence. As long as Israeli society strives to continue the occupation it will search for means of justification amongst the other.

Hence the picture of the "baby bomber" was distributed throughout the world. That we do not see pictures of our child soldiers only proves that Israel has succeeded in manipulating the press for its propaganda purposes. As an Israeli Jew who rejects the occupation and its negative effects on our society, I am most concerned.

Louis Frankenthaler

Jerusalem

Arab Media Watch