Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

Status
Not open for further replies.
The discussion was based off the premise that if Israeli went on another war, the rest of the world might not help; Israeli would go it alone without money or legal imports. Israeli has manage to do this before, its not impossible or unlikely they could do it again.

It was? Well thanks for telling me because I wasn’t talking about that. Of course Israel will not die lightly if no other solution can be made like the one state solution. Israel could very well win a battle, but I doubt she will actually win the war. Israel in the past 50 years has won battles in a much greater epoch. Hey Israel almost lost in 1973 if it wasn’t for the US, remember Israel almost did lose. So yes Israel does need the US, because numbers are not on Israel’s side.
 
I just wanted to rebut some things that Outlandish said:
outlandish said:
appendix to above post

I missed out the deffinition/classification of semites:

The term Semites is applied to a group of peoples closely related in language, whose habitat is Asia and partly Africa. The expression is derived from the Biblical table of nations (Genesis 10), in which most of these peoples are recorded as descendants of Noah's son Sem.

In historic times all Western Asia (see below), with the exception of the peninsula of Asia Minor, was Semitic. From the philological point of view the Semitic peoples are divided into four chief Babylonian-Assyrian Semites (East Semites), Chanaanitic Semites, (West Semites), Aramaic Semites (North Semites), and Arabian Semites (South Semites). The last-named group is divided into North and South Arabians, of which last the Abyssinians are a branch. The first three groups are usually termed North Semites, in contrast to the Arabian group, or South Semites. But the classification of the Babylonian with the Aramaic and Chanaanitic Semites is not permissible from the philological point of view

TERRITORY

The great mountain-chains which begin at the Syro-Cilician boundary, and then curving towards the south-west extend to the Persian Gulf, separate on the north and east the territory of the Semites from that of the other peoples of Western Asia. It includes the Syro-Arabian plain with the civilized countries extending to the east and west and the Arabian Peninsula which joins it on the south. The lowlands to the east are formed by the Euphrates and the Tigris, and include the homes of two very ancient civilizations, in the north the rather undulating Mesopotamia, in the south the low Babylonian plain; the land extending to the west from the lower Euphrates is called Chaldea. These are the territories of the East Semitic tribes and states. On the west lies Northern Syria, then the Lebanon Mountains with the intervening Coelo-Syria, the oasis of Damascus, the seat of an ancient culture, the Hauran, and in the the midst of the desert the oasis of Palmyra (Tadmor). These territories were at a later period occupied principally by Aramaic tribes. The territory on the coast extending westwards from Lebanon, and Palestine, which joins it on the south, are the principal seats of the Chanaanitic Semites. The mountainous country to the east of Arabia and the Sinaitic peninsula extending to the west of Arabia, belong to Arabia proper, the territory of the South Semites.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13706a.htm

This type of classification is outdated and false. Then you went on to say...
judaism is a spiritual belief NOT an anthropological classification this is pure fallacy propegated by decades of zionism + is absorbed by the masses who do not have a solid grounding on anthropology and theology especially judaism
Semitic refers to language groups, not anthropological classifications.
The term "Semetic" was coined in 1781 by the German scholar A.L. van Schlözer to identify a family of related languages, including Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, and others.He derived the word from Shem, one of Noah's three sons, giving the unintended impression that all those who spoke Semitic languages shared a common ancestry, and thereby setting into motion a process of labeling that may have distorted biblical history and anthropology. In the nineteenth century, the narrow linguistic definition of "Semitic" gradually broadened into the concept of race, and the notion grew up in European writings that a Semitic group of people existed with quite specific characteristics of appearance and culture. Modern archeological excavations and other research have lead some contemporary scholars, most notably S.D. Goitein, to break that link between language and race, to conclude that there is no basis for the idea that the varied peoples who spoke Semitic languages also shared physical and social traits. "We know the outward appearance of the ancient peoples who spoke Semitic dialects from their pictures, as well as from bodies found in excavations," Goitein writes, "and they were as different from each other anthropologically as any people could possibly be. Their economic and social conditions differered even more widely. What they had in common in literature or religious ideas can be proved to be the outcome of a long process of cultural integration.

from Arab and Jew, David K. Shipler 1986
The Jews are considered a distinct anthropological group.
 

One can never equate

Muslim 'palestinian' Militants aiming @ babies
to
US/UK/Israel targeting Terrorists Butchers.



"While we MAY forgive them for killing our kids, we can NEVER forgive them for making us killing theirs." Israeli PM Golda Meir
 
Would not it be cheaper for the USA

to resettle 5 million jews to the US and evacuate Israel? I know for sure that 80% or so of Israelis would emigrate to the USA without much thinking provided the chance. Actually, many emigrate to Israel just to reimigrate to the US.I know it's not possible because power in the USA belongs to the right wing religious nuts for whom Israel's existence is the only tangible proof of Bible's prophecies. But, theoretically speaking, would not it be better/cheaper for the US just to evacuate Israelis and their possessions and get hell out of Middle East? Arabs are not going to drink their oil they will sell it no matter who'll be in the power there. Considering military expences, astronomical help to Israel and two wars in ME, the price of a gallon of gas we pay is actually around >$ 15/gallon. So I do not buy price hike scare. I do not buy WMD scare too. Arabs want to live as much as we do. They are too technologically backward and I am afraid they'll be always that way. ME pull out would redirect anger of the few surviving terroristically inclined groups toward their governments. If not for the Western human rights whining (quite hypocritical to boot), Arab countries would eradicate their terrorists even sooner than it took for Mussolini to destroy Sicilian mafia. I really do not see the point why the US should stick its bloody nose in the middle Eastern affairs. Do you see any?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting point. I've had the same idea myself. Unfortunately, I don't think the Jews would go for it even if we made the offer. Isreal is, after all, the land promised to them by God. For them to abandon it seems unlikely.
 
80% of them would go. 100% of former Soviet/Russian jews (and counterfeit jews) would go. Those who would not go would need to find a way of coexisting/meddling/mixing with Arabs (they could do it before, they will be able to do it again). Life is cruel, sooner or later one must walk on his own. I wish to have caring mother/father until my death. Alas it's impossible.
 
I think it would be cheaper to just quit sending them billions of dollars every year,

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm


and quit fighting wars for them.

Israel has nuclear capability and besides, with their worldwide mass media network, they can easily find other politicians in other countries to declare war on "terrorism" in exchange for favorable media support.
 
It would be "cheaper", or wise, for the USA to publicly advise Israel, and also put the entire world on official notice, that the United States have renounced all forms of ethnic segregation, both as a matter of our own internal policies, and as a requisite policy of any partners and allies. Israel is primarily in difficulty because of segregationist policy, and resultant crimes that were and are being committed against non-Jewish residents from the outset of the creation of Israel. When it becomes the official policy of Israel to renounce segregation, then the healing can begin that will allow Jews their right to live anywhere, and especially in the Mideast, without fear.

It would also save the United States incalculable blood and treasure from now on to publicly re-assert the important concept of separating religion from state policy, for our own part, and on the part of our allies. Religious beliefs always entail multiple and conflicting interpretations making it impossible to employ as a basis for functional policy, or stable government, in the long term. The United States could save themselves much grief if they would renounce theocratic policy-making, and theocratic governance. This can be done while acknowledging the importance of religious freedom, and while emphasizing that separating religion from government is necessary for religious freedom to exist.

Within the Jewish faith, there is much controversy of what relevance modern Israel has, both in relationship to ancient Tribes of Israel, and to the Prophecy of Jewish scripture. In every political movement that wraps itself in religion, there is literal and internal conflict as deities are variously asserted to be running things, and as beleivers' hopes get bound up in the careers and exploits of individual political and military leaderships. G-d as revealed in Judaism does not need any help, nor does He call down to leaders such as Ariel Sharon or Franklin Graham with a coherent plan of action to fulfill a consistent divine will.

For American leadership to neglect addressing the dangers of mixing religion with state policy, there will be an extremely heavy cost. Fundamentalist Christians in America typically hold dangerous and apocalyptic expectations, and are prone to supporting and promoting literally cataclysmic policy, so long as it appears to them that it will fulfill an interpretation of prewritten destiny. This is an extremely dangerous notion, and the American public needs very much to have an open debate on this subject, with the purpose of asserting that religion must not be the basis of formulating policy.

Presently, American Christians holding pro-zionist beliefs are attacking the separation of "Church and State" in the USA, in order to pre-empt any political movement toward secularism. It will be very destructive to the USA if one or any of several religiously-based movements are continually allowed tacit official sanction in "getting the nation right with God". "One Nation Under God" is one example, born in the xenophobic 1950s, that is now enjoying a revival as American theocracy re-asserts itself. The USA has a constitutional basis for removing this danger without attacking religion: From the founding of this country, it was established that religion was not to interfere in the affairs of governance, and government was not to interfere with religion. This contract needs careful review and more diligent exercise, or the penalties to our way of life will be immense. The danger is not that one religious movement is likely to take over exclusive power, but that religious sentiments overstepping Constitutional and common-sense limits could result in flawed and deadly foreign policy, producing collosal blowback.

If Americans can summon the wisdom, rooted in our national history, to resoundingly re-assert the separation of religious prophecy and belief from our collective policy-making, it would forestall many ominous possibilities for the future.
 
I got this by Email:

---------------------


Yes folks the world according to Arafat is starting to unravel as predicted earlier:



You can bet that if Israel disengages from the "Palestinians" they will be eating camel dung breakfast, lunch, & dinner: no economy, no political structure, no educational system (except one based on terror preparation, Jew hatred, and bashing the west). The Arab Jew haters on this board (and we know who they are) can blame the Jews all they want but those rational are beyond knowing that it's the Arab's own fault: never learned to farm the land… only how to exploit their people and their massive oil resources. As for the Palestinians there's no oil so they are out of luck and since they can't do anything useful except make mule bombs or blow themselves up when to think they might have learned drip agriculture or studied computer programming in Israel - neither of which requires much land instead they chose death... so be it was not their destiny to know peace… O.K. Israel will put up the wall and so they will invariably kill each other BUT attack Israel once more and there'll be more glass on the desert floor. Now that's philistine!



"...if Palestinian statehood is a reward for terrorism, then terrorism is coming to a theater near you"
 
Oh yes. We mustn't taint the purity of politics with religion. Just look at US history. Religion has inspired such horrors as the abolition of slavery and the civil rights movement. Not to mention the founding of the United States itself. If only we were all enlightened atheists like Stalin, or Mao, or Lenin.
 
I thought the "promised land" was Utah and Missouri?

Oh wait, wrong religion, sorry.
 
I know for sure that 80% or so of Israelis would emigrate to the USA without much thinking provided the chance.
I'm not a Jew -- an atheist,actually -- and even I know that statement is patent BS.

No wonder I don't hang out here for enlightenment; just for sport.

Kind of makes you wonder what is the actual draw, doesn't it?
 
Mr. G said:
I'm not a Jew -- an atheist,actually -- and even I know that statement is patent BS.

No wonder I don't hang out here for enlightenment; just for sport.

Kind of makes you wonder what is the actual draw, doesn't it?

That's because you have no clue about the topic and thinking in terms of your "common sense". Me on the other hand know at least 15 jews who emigrated to Israel at different times. All and every one of them would reimigrate to the USA or even GERMANY provided the chance. Granted my collection of jewish acquaintances is not statistically representative but reimigration longings are fairly common among Israelis (for various reasons). Some do not like to live in de-facto theocracy, some do not like to live in the state of perpetual war, some do not like living in a very small country, some do not like heat and desert living, some do not like job or lack of job situation, some do not see long term future for Israel.... There are many reasons why. But if a person is not super religious, if it's not peer pressured to show defiance and patriotism it would more likely admit his/her emigration readiness than not.
 
Well being that their religion says that the land is theirs why in the Hell would they leave? The Christians, Jews, and Muslims have been fighting over that spot of land for hundreds of years and they are not about to just get up and leave.

Well if you think the Jews would leave- what about the Palastinians? Maybe we should just open up our borders and let them move in? Better yet, why doesnt Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan let them in? They are alot closer and there are a lot more Mosques.
 
Well being that their religion says that the land is theirs why in the Hell would they leave?

It does? It says that it's theirs at a certain period in time. Assuming propaganda is true doesn't make it so.
 
madanthonywayne said:
Interesting point. I've had the same idea myself. Unfortunately, I don't think the Jews would go for it even if we made the offer. Isreal is, after all, the land promised to them by God. For them to abandon it seems unlikely.

in a recent survery in Israel 47% of all non-religeous jews and 23% of religious jews were considering leaving the country! the only reason they arent and the reason why more Jews are going to Israel is becasue they are scared of Anti-Semitism. and Israel isnt exactly helping is it. Anti-semitistm is what keeps Israel alive and in the past on numerous occasions Israelis have persecuted Jews to scare them into Israel!

and as for Jews leaving America, thats nonsene, Jews or too smart to let that happen well atleast for now
 
and also not all Jews agree with Zionism. the basis that Israel belongs to the Jewish religion is flawed and MANY Jews diasgree with this. it is said in the Torah that Jews are not allowed a soverin state until the Messiah (by the way not Jesus as Jews rejected him) comes.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com is one of many anti zionist sites made by Jews. the originator of Zionism in the 18th century was an Atheist! Zionism only got support from Jews as Jews were kicked out of the west
 
Arabs and Muslims supporters of Israel

* Arabs for Israel [.]
* Irshad Manji [.]
* Salim Mansur [.]
* Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury [.]
* Ishmael Khaldi [.]
* Walid Shoebat [.] (a former PLO terrorist)

and many many more. the list is quite large.

why are they supporting Israel?
are they "brainwashed"?
have they been infected with "Zioniya"?
will they get 72 virgins once they depart the world?
how do you think they'll be treated if they set foot in... say... Saudi Arabia?

are they moral people?

more importantly: did they "sell out" [(c) Tiassa], or have they simply found their senses?

i particularly like Walid Shoebat (last link)
 
more importantly: did they "sell out" [(c) Tiassa], or have they simply found their senses?

They have their own opinions. Unlike you, I won't cancel them out of their religion.

What about you, Otheadp? "Diversity should not be a virtue only in the USA, but should be encouraged around the world," reads one of your links. Since that principle opposes your posting habits, my question to you is whether you're seeking genuine discussion or simply attempting to mount agit-prop. Irshad Manji writes, ". . . I think it's vital to promote a positive vision rather than merely complain about what's wrong." Again, inconsistent with your posts, especially your position that there are no innocent Palestinians. By your argument, there would be no positive vision to promote. Mr. Mansur's link shows the developing situation in Palestine; I find it odd that you would have any real sympathies with the Palestinians since you hold them all guilty. Are you seeking genuine discussion or merely calling people out with agit-prop? The WorldNet link you provide notes: "Benkin blames Islamic fundamentalists for Choudhury's fate and says the editor's writings were just too controversial for the government to tolerate." Why are you judging folks according to fundamentalism? Is it simply more accommodating to your condemnation? I'm not sure what you expect in terms of the Khaldi website. Good for him?! Sure. Whatever. I would be interested to see Mr. Shoebat's 1400-year analysis of anti-Judaism in Islam.

In the meantime, I still await your responses to links provided in the past demonstrating that not all Jews agree with your representations. You know, the ones you dismissed because they weren't Jewish enough?

In the end, it's hard to figure why you're bothering to call me out on this one, Otheadp. I hope this represents a new chapter in your conscience. You have my best wishes.
 
all hail King Tiassa which bestowed his devine wisdom upon the irksome little Jew

stop putting words in my mouth asshole - i'm getting tired of telling you this.
you're pretty quick with your mouth (keyboard) but your pathetic attempt at divirting the discussion from Arabs and Muslims that support Israel to me and my alleged opinions (interpreted and/or smeared by you) shows that you really have nothing substancial to contribute.

also, don't get me started on your dehumanizing of Israeli children.

by the way, i mentioned you because in a previous thread you called a certain Arab a "sell out" for supporting Israel. isn't he entitled to his own opinion without being called a sellout by Your Assholeness? there are plenty Jews that support the creation of "Palestine". you support them plenty... but Arabs or Muslms supporting Israel are sellouts?

Unlike you, I won't cancel them out of their religion.
what the hell does that supposed to mean? more words being stuffed in my mouth by Your Assholeness?

they are devout Muslims (except Shoebat who has converted)

oh, by the way
the Quran is Zionist (according to some "really evil Satanic infadelicious non-real" Muslims) [.] [.] [.]

Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi said:
My position is opposing every solution which involves the withdraw of Israel from Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and the creation of a so-called "Palestinian state".

more on the myth of a mysterious "Palestinian" people
Walid Shoebat (a "Palestinian") said:
"Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
p.s.

in the future, all your [Tiassa] posts attempting to discredit me personally instead of discussing the topic will be ignored
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top