Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

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Source: Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Link: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign R...nterview with Prime Minister Shamir on Israel
Title: "Interview with Prime Minister Shamir on Israel television"
Date: June 10, 1984

Flashback:

I came across a twenty year-old interview from Israeli television. The politics of the day caused a question to catch my eye, but more important than that is Shamir's response:

Q: Did you except to receive any kind of positive response to your offer to let Iraq transfer oil via Haifa?

A: No, I didn't hope for a positive reply, but we know that when the oil problem, and the flow of oil to the western world, gains importance and seriousness, it is our duty to point out that Israel is an organic part of the Middle East, and it can help solve these problems to the good of the region and the entire western world, and of course, in accordance with our interests. For this reason we found it prudent to raise this possibility.

Source: Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs
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Reflection:

I suppose the question is, twenty years down the line, is it (still) true?

• Can Israel help solve anything in the Middle East with its current outlook?
• Can Israel's solutions still bring "good to the region and the entire western world"?
• Has Israel brought good to the region and the entire western world over the last twenty years?

Such questions raise broad argumentative points; obviously, the criteria of what's good for the region, or for the Western world comes to mind. One could assert that a stable, secure Israel is good for the region and the entire Western world, and one could also assert that the Israeli fight against Arabs causes so many complications that very little the Sharon--or any other--administration does will bring good to the region or the Western world.

Twenty years later ... could Sharon say what Shamir said and not be laughed off as a grim and partisan excuse?
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• Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. "Interview with Prime Minister Shamir." June 10, 1984. See http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign R...ks by Prime Minister Rabin on Israel Televisi
 
Can Israel help solve anything in the Middle East with its current outlook?
the number of Arab states that semi-recognize Israel and have semi-normalized relations has increased from 2 ("Jordan", Egypt) to ... i'm not sure how many but at least 6-7. Qatar, Mauritania, UAE...
semi-recognize and semi-normalized means that there aren't full diplomatic normalized relations yet however there are small-scale cooperations.
the point is, Arab countries are getting accustomed to the idea that Israel is not a threat but an asset which they can use to achieve many of their goals. be it closer ties to the US or better economic or agricultural models, or medical advancements - whatever may be.
the "Palestinians" and their supporting terrorist-states keep f*cking it up for the more moderate Arab states who don't care much about pan-Arab unity or fanatic ideologies, but these moderate states increase in number and in their strength.
the outlook is good

• Can Israel's solutions still bring "good to the region and the entire western world"?
of course. first of all, US companies develop many important technologies in Israel which improve the economy and quality of life back in the US. Microsoft, IBM, Cisco (or one of its competitors... they developped a super-router a few months ago in Netania, Israel)
there are also medical and many other advances.
it helps to the region and the entire world.

Has Israel brought good to the region and the entire western world over the last twenty years?
like you said, "good" has to be defined.

how about your own opinion?
 
how about your own opinion?
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• Israel's outward representation is too focused on an exclusionary idea--"Zionism"--to be solving much of anything. Driving wedges between humanity is not the best way to solve human problems.

• In the present circumstance, I think Israel needs to change its political course before it can do much good for the region or the Western world.

the point is, Arab countries are getting accustomed to the idea that Israel is not a threat but an asset which they can use to achieve many of their goals. be it closer ties to the US or better economic or agricultural models, or medical advancements - whatever may be.
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So as long as Arab countries get used to supporting Israel ...? In other words, "selling out" will be good for Arabs?

of course. first of all, US companies develop many important technologies in Israel which improve the economy and quality of life back in the US. Microsoft, IBM, Cisco (or one of its competitors... they developped a super-router a few months ago in Netania, Israel)
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So by just doing what nations do, Israel is bringing good to the region and the Western world?

I mean ... let's be clear here: By the same measure, Saddam Hussein--before the Gulf War, at least, was doing the Western world good by selling oil.

there are also medical and many other advances.
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Where would those medical advances be were it not for the disproportionate amount of money spent by Americans to support Israel?

(I won't make a serious point out of it--how can I? But I Googled "medical advances israel" and came up with a story about hip-fracture procedures. In a very quiet American context regarding the elderly and a level of "Jew joke" acceptable to television executives, falling old people and fractured hips are supposed to be somehow funny.)

But put it up on the scales. Did Hitler bring good to the world? Hell, even I drove a VW Beetle for a while. It was a great car. The manufacture of Beetles brought jobs and sustenance to the western hemisphere (e.g. Mexico).

But even that isn't enough to excuse the Reich. Nor is Hussein's participation in the petroleum economy enough to excuse the Ba'ath in Iraq.

We come 'round to the argument of what's "good," at this point, because while such direct comparisons as Hussein or Hitler are considered by many (myself included) somewhat in the realm of hyperbole at least, we do see the underlying question:

• Is the balance of those contributions offset by the detriment of other factors?

From 1990 to 2000 U.S. military aid to Israel totaled over $18 billion. No other nation in the world has such a close relationship with the U.S. military and arms industry.

The UN, Amnesty International and other groups have raised questions about the extent the to which U.S. military aid is abetting human rights abuses by Israeli forces operating in the West Bank. These debates will no doubt continue for some time. In the mean time, however, there is another aspect of the American-Israeli relationship that may have an even greater impact on U.S. and Israeli security in the long run: the ongoing transfer of American arms technology from Israel to potential U.S. (and Israeli) adversaries around the globe . . . .

. . . . Transactions between the U.S. and Israel are not necessarily worrisome by themselves; after all, as Israel has proved, there are a host of countries willing to sell the weapons it needs . . . .

. . . .The real danger comes in Israel's habit of reverse engineering U.S. technology and selling to nations hostile to U.S. interests. Israel's client list includes Cambodia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, the South Lebanon Army, India, China, Burma and Zambia. The U.S. has most recently warmed up to India and is now in fact competing with Israel for arms sales there, but the other Israeli customers remain dubious at best . . . .

. . . . If Israeli weapons sales to China induce misgivings, including the most recent U.S. blocked sale of Israel's Phalcon airborne radar, the beneficiaries of Chinese arms transfers of Israeli-American technology are even more disturbing. In 1996, as disclosed in the UN Register of Conventional Arms, China sold over 100 missiles and launchers to Iran, along with a handful of combat aircraft and warships. Even worse, in 1997 the New York Daily News reported that Iraq had deployed Israeli-developed, Chinese PL-8 missiles in the no-fly zones, endangering American pilots.

Source: CommonDreams
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It's all economy, right? Improving the quality of life in the West?
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• Reingold, Jonathan. "U.S. Arms Sales to Israel End Up In China, Iraq." CDNC, May 9, 2002. See http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm
 
No its not, what Israel did at the inception of its nation hood is very relevant today. The question about Israel is about her inception, which is the crux of much of the argument with Israel/Palestine conflict. The only way that a wrong of history can be considered irrelevant is if there is a reconciliation, and recognition of your own actions.
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Israels inception occured thousands of years before the birth of Christs. How could its inception possibly be relevant..... unless you are arguing that Israel has ancestoral claim on the land dating back thousands of years.

Flash forward to the present day. Israel is acting in exact opposition to conquerors of the past. Conquerors of the past burnt and pillaged the land and murdered all opposition. When rebellions flared up, genocide was the solution. Israel has thus far refrained from annihilating her enemy even though she easily could.

There are three obvious solutions to the Israeli question.
1] Annhilate the Israeli state and liquidate the Jews. This is the solution favored by Europe and the Arabs.
2] Annihilate the Palestinians.
3] Create a DMZ about five miles deep which is heavily mined and filled with barbed wire to keep the two hostile parties separated. This is the solution favored by myself. I additionally support mandatory education for all palestinian youth by westernized teachers.
 
Israels inception occured thousands of years before the birth of Christs.

Modern Israel.

Flash forward to the present day. Israel is acting in exact opposition to conquerors of the past. Conquerors of the past burnt and pillaged the land and murdered all opposition.

That’s not universally true, it happened in some instances during the era of imperialism but it’s not a universal ethic. Israel has killed tens of thousands of Pals, and expelled in excess of 750,000 from their homes so Israel can create an artificial majority population. Also lets not absolve Israel’s sins by saying “ they aren’t that bad”, it’s like saying “I only raped on woman, he raped 14”. Fact remains an injustice was done, and your argument is fallacious, and anti-intellectual.

When rebellions flared up, genocide was the solution. Israel has thus far refrained from annihilating her enemy even though she easily could.

Israel’s solution and it has been discussed quite openly is to expel all the Arabs off their lands/

1] Annhilate the Israeli state and liquidate the Jews. This is the solution favored by Europe and the Arabs.
2] Annihilate the Palestinians.
3] Create a DMZ about five miles deep which is heavily mined and filled with barbed wire to keep the two hostile parties separated. This is the solution favored by myself. I additionally support mandatory education for all palestinian youth by westernized teachers.

All of that is Bull Shit, and is evidence of your limited depth in the region. The most favourable solution is to follow in the footsteps of South Africa and create one state in which both nationalities are considered one people under the law. It can be done…
 
Undecided said:
The most favourable solution is to follow in the footsteps of South Africa and create one state in which both nationalities are considered one people under the law. It can be done…
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Do you really think they could get along? I seriously fear that that is virtually impossible. Palestinians are raised to hate Israelis and Jews and demonize them at all cost. The only way a single shared nation could come of this is if the Palestinians were de-brain washed and Israeli conservatives shoot. As is the most plausible answer for peace in Israeli would be Israeli’s killing off all the Palestinians in mass genocides and smacking up their neighboring countries.
 
Do you really think they could get along?

I understand people’s trepidations, but is there really another option? All other options involve war of some sort, and international tensions. Of course I believe that he UN would have to be in charge for at least a decade or so with boots on the ground. There will be extremists on both sides, and they will have to dealt with in some way (if I had my way, I would Stalinize). But if you said in 1977 that Apartheid would be destroyed by 1994 and whites and blacks would be living in relative peace, and that Nelson Mandela would walk the streets of Cape Town again people would laugh at you.

Palestinians are raised to hate Israelis and Jews and demonize them at all cost.

I don’t think that is an exclusively Palestinian trait.

As is the most plausible answer for peace in Israeli would be Israeli’s killing off all the Palestinians in mass genocides and smacking up their neighboring countries.

Or visa versa, is that the option you want? Surely I don’t…
 
Or visa versa, is that the option you want? Surely I don’t…
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Of course I don't want either side to die of in mass genocide, though I think it far less likely the Palistinians even with help from their neighbors could overthrow the Isreali army and kill off all the Jews in Israeli

Ok Ok, most Muslims are programmed to hate and demonize the Jews, my bad :p

I guess I see your point, we will have to wait several decades from people to settle down?
 
Of course I don't want either side to die of in mass genocide, though I think it far less likely the Palistinians even with help from their neighbors could overthrow the Isreali army and kill off all the Jews in Israeli

Israel will be destroyed out of her own accord; the only reason why Israel and NK exist is because of their unsustainable military and superpower friends. Israel will find it increasingly difficult to survive especially since Europe is really getting pissed at Israel for very good reason, and the US population starting to signs of understanding that Israel is no good for the US. Let’s not forget that many a time nations with strong militaries have collapsed with a whisper, be it the USSR, or Spain, NK and Israel are next imo, unless they change.

Ok Ok, most Muslims are programmed to hate and demonize the Jews, my bad

Have you seen Israeli settlers? Peas in the same pod I’d say.

we will have to wait several decades from people to settle down?

If they don’t the world will give up and you can all kill yourselves in an orgy of death.
 
You do agree then that peace any time soon is virtually impossible unless, unless by mass genocide and war.

The Israelis manage to fight back the Arabs in 1948 with no help, I don't see it as unlikely that they could not do it again.
 
You do agree then that peace any time soon is virtually impossible unless, unless by mass genocide and war.

Where did I say that? The reason why people it is impossible is because of our expectations. If we expect things to fail they will, it’s called a self-fulfilling prophesy. I really hate that attitude that, “well we might as well not try, it is fail anyways” is that the way we want history to look back on us? At least we can we tried.

The Israelis manage to fight back the Arabs in 1948 with no help, I don't see it as unlikely that they could not do it again.

Israel didn’t get help? 1948 and the 2000’s are significantly different. If Israel goes too far sanctions would be slapped by the EU at least, and other enlightened members of the international community. There is a lot of bluster about expelling the Pals but it just won’t happen, if Israel knows what good for her.
 
I was asking you not saying you said that, it was a question, yes or no then?

Alot of people are trying and unless your actually apart of the peace process in someway, you can't doom it to failure simply because you don't beleive it will work.

Well the Israel didn't get any help, in fact European countries like Britain were actually helping the Arabs. If the most conservative Israelis had their way no one would stop them for forcing out or killing off the Palestinians, no one.
 
it was a question, yes or no then?

I don’t agree, I think the situation is salvageable there is an increasing movement to create a one state solution.

Alot of people are trying and unless your actually apart of the peace process in someway, you can't doom it to failure simply because you don't beleive it will work.

Not true, a lot more people are trying to destroy that peace process for their own goals. To achieve peace all or most have to feel that something indeed positive is going to be done. If most people feel apathetic, or negative the actions of the few quickly lose steam.

If the most conservative Israelis had their way no one would stop them for forcing out or killing off the Palestinians, no one.

I’ve always maintained that when countries reach the zenith of their power, they can’t go any higher, gravity starts pulling. Chances are that Israel is going to stretch herself way too thin, and international support of Israel would be virtually non-existent. Israel would become like NK, introverted, and on the verge of collapse, the only thing is…will the US support by that time, can the US support Israel by that time? If the US doesn’t change her budget situation ther will be calls to stop all aid, Israel shouldn’t play games.
 
Do you believe it salvageable soon?

I was talking about self-prophesying, you can’t change anything unless you’re actually playing a part in it. My disbelief in viable peace is not self-prophesying.

How far would Israeli need to stretch to annihilate Palestine? Israeli manage to survive its formation with little aid.
 
Do you believe it salvageable soon?

As long as there are more moderates then extremists.

I was talking about self-prophesying, you can’t change anything unless you’re actually playing a part in it. My disbelief in viable peace is not self-prophesying.

But you and I are irrelevant we don’t live in the region and we don’t affect that process. The population in the region has to be on side, or else the plan fails. Their feelings dictate the actions of the minority.

How far would Israeli need to stretch to annihilate Palestine? Israeli manage to survive its formation with little aid.

A little aid? LOL! $12 billion is a “little aid” 10% of the Israeli economy is a little aid? Anyways, Israel to get rid of Palestine would have to expand well beyond her border to maintain that status quo.
 
In 1948 Israeli had no aid, and it declared independence and fought off a multi-national attack from the Arabs. Not only did Israeli win it increased in area greatly, which it sold back years later.

Yes that was exactly what I was saying about me being cynical about Israel and peace, it does not matter what I (or we) think so your argument about self-defeating prophesy was irrelevant.
 
WellCookedFetus said:
Ok Ok, most Muslims are programmed to hate and demonize the Jews, my bad :p
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so thats why the Jewish golden age happened under Muslim rule, saved them from the crusader, saved their race from anihilation, lived and prayed with them side by side, and Arabs helped build the Wailing Wall (and Ironically now the Jews want to destroy Al Aqsa)?

under Muslim rule Jew, Christians and Muslims lived in peace side by side
under Christian rule everyone hated eachother and Christians killed Jews and Muslims and even peace abiding Christians. in 2 days Crusaders killed 40,000 Muslims. while the original Arab entry to Israel was peaceful as was Saladins
under Jewish rule Israel is how it is now. a fucking mess
 
Europe is really getting pissed at Israel for very good reason
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You have to be kidding me. Europe created this mess because they decided to kill every single Jew they could lay their murdering hands on. If they wouldn't have been so intent on killing all the Jews (and preventing them from entering their states), the Jews would never have felt the need to create a state. If the Jews practiced the Europeans method of solving problems, there would be no Palestinians left to complain.
 
In 1948 Israeli had no aid, and it declared independence and fought off a multi-national attack from the Arabs.

I am pretty sure at least the Czechs gave you stuff.

Not only did Israeli win it increased in area greatly, which it sold back years later.

No doubt a miraculous victory to say the least…but I don’t see the relevance with this conversation.

Yes that was exactly what I was saying about me being cynical about Israel and peace, it does not matter what I (or we) think so your argument about self-defeating prophesy was irrelevant.

Granted we don’t matter, but we pretty much represent the silent moderate majority in the region. If you think the process is full of folly already and you live in Wisconsin! What makes us think that it’s that much different in Israel/Palestine? That’s what I mean.
 
Undecided said:
I am pretty sure at least the Czechs gave you stuff.
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Gave me stuff? I'm not Israeli! And my opinion of what is Israeli future is irrelevant, now if your saying they don’t believe peace is possible that’s a different issue.

The discussion was based off the premise that if Israeli went on another war, the rest of the world might not help; Israeli would go it alone without money or legal imports. Israeli has manage to do this before, its not impossible or unlikely they could do it again.
 
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