Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

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they felt culturally connected to Israel.

Exactly and that culture was fostered by a religion, why do you only reinforce my points?

Even after 2-300 hundred years, you can find Indians with only a small percentage of identifiable Indian genes, imagine what would happen to a group over 2,000 years.

But there are many more Indians who are looking Indian and speak Indian they still haven’t lost their original race. The Hebrews are dead, they no longer exist, the closest relatives are guess what…Arabs! So if we are going to go by the racial nonsense, Palestinian Arabs whether they be Jewish, Christian, or Muslim are more Hebrew then you and thus have a greater claim to that land. I am probably more Hebrew then you, and many Mediterranean Christians. Most European Jewry stems from the Steppes of the Caucasus, otherwise Turkic, and Slav. They [the natives]live on their reserves and maintain the culture, they didn’t assimilate, frankly here in Canada there are tribes that are getting their own (nominally independent) states, why? Because they haven’t left their areas of traditional habitation. Jews have left, and they left for a reason, they were expelled by G-d.

That's because their isolation is not absolute. Same with the Jews.

Jews are a completely different story, one cannot become Indian, but one can become a Jew. I cannot go to an Iroquois chief and say, I have no connection to you but I would like to become a full fledged Iroquois. I get acquire their native culture as my own, but I am still not native. Same way I can acquire the Jewish culture, but not convert. You can’t have it both ways.

Perhaps the immigration was all part of god's plan, it was futuitous, wasn't it? WWII diplaces all the Jews, and they coalesce into one political group in Palestine.

Actually no…WWII did not displace Jews necessarily, Jews displaced themselves into Palestine. According to an excellent review on the Messiah question I got this:
The Medrash quoted above (Shir HaShirim, Parsha 2:2) says that if the nations of the world will impose their burden on Israel too heavily this will bring the redemption before its proper time. As we see, the holocaust led directly to the establishment of an independent Jewish state in Israel three years later - before the Jewish people were spiritually ready
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Or this ominous sign:
Therefore, we find a statement by the Chofetz Chaim calling the Balfour Declaration "a smile from heaven" but also pointing out that the Hebrew letters for Balfour spell out Bal Pe'or, the name of an idol that led Jews astray in the desert.
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As shown Jews have gone to the region much to prematurely. And here is a question for you Spider:

How then, can a secular state be the sachalta digeula, the period of Moshiach ben Yosef? Moreover, even the physical aspects, such as wiping out Amalek, which is a basic requirement of Moshiach ben Yosef, was not done.
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As shown this is not a issue of race, culture, or some imaginary other connection, it is a tie of religion to the land of Israel.
Ethnicity and culture can indeed exist independently of the original cause.

But you have just agreed (indirectly) that both have a common tie, what would that tie be in being Jew? Being Jewish!

You can be ethnically Jewish, yet a muslim.

Your still have your “Jewishness” but you are not Jewish.

Do you want to explain how the language of Yiddish has a religious origin? It is derived from German.

Well I’ll Herzl deal with this one:

“We shall give up using those miserable stunted jargons, those Ghetto languages which we still employ, for these were the stealthy tongues of prisoners.” (Herzl p.146).
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Yes, your savior the true pro-Semite :rolleyes: anyways, I would fathom that Yiddish is a mix of German/Slavic, and Hebrew. I am not a pro on that.

You obviously do not understand Jewish culture. Diversity of opinion is welcome, and debate is valued.

Surely opinion is one thing, but reality is quite another. My argument is not yet discredited.

There is a long tradition of arguing about what religion really means, and about the finer points of worship. Many participants in Christianity only go to church for social reasons, and every other day of the week, they are non-religious. Yet they self-identify as Christians, and hold shared values.

None of this has relevance to what I stated…read what I wrote again and answer correctly.

I don't buy all that biblical shit about prophecy... perhaps the synagogue of Satan refers to Palestinians.

Do they call themselves Jews? No you do…
 
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As I have explained before, wether modern Jews have little or no genetic material from the original hebrews is irrelevent. I don't think the existence of Israel owes it's justification due to racial continuity. If you still want to argue about this, go find someone with that opinion.

Your still have your “Jewishness” but you are not Jewish.
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It is up to the individual to decide this, there is no objective measurement of Jewishness, certainly you are not the authority.
 
I don't think the existence of Israel owes it's justification due to racial continuity.

Then what is it? Because if its not that, then Zionism has no legs to stand on. Tell me what is it?

It is up to the individual to decide this, there is no objective measurement of Jewishness, certainly you are not the authority.

I never said I was, but logic dictates otherwise Spider. Look I realize that now you are merely rationalizing the irrational so you can maintain your “pseudo-Jewish” status, I have asked Jewish authorities about certain aspects of your claims and I will be waiting for their responses. You don’t make up what being Jewish is, being Jewish is something that requires certain things, i.e. circumcision if you weren’t circumcised you wouldn’t be a Jew, right or wrong? If I am right, then you can clearly throw out your subjectiveness because it does not exist independently of your imagination. Stop fooling yourself, the lie has been exposed.
 
Then what is it? Because if its not that, then Zionism has no legs to stand on. Tell me what is it?

The claim to Israel is not based on Zionism, but on actual events.

Zi·on·ism
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

According to this definition, there is no qualification about race, geneology, or anthropology. It is just that the jewish people sought a homeland in Palestine. It is a political movement, not necessarily religious, although for some it was. The British, and the UN agreed, and worked towards making this happen. There was added urgency due to the holocaust, and the many refugees it generated. Although they did not want a Jewish state per se, they wanted a Jewish homeland that could govern itself. The result of this movement was that by 1948 about half a million or so Jews ended up in Palestine.


According to the jewishvirtuallibrary.org,
The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.[zionism]
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#2 is based on the UN resolution of 1947 requireing the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. I think #3 is important too, they captured the territory in a defensive war. I don't give #4 any credibility. I would add Arab collaboration with Hitler as another reason to give Jews soveriegnty over some Arab land, serves those bastards right. Since hostility continues, I don't see any credible reason why they should give it back. In fact, for the most part, this is impossible. Israel should make some concessions, even give some land back, if this would create peace, but which Palestinian is willing to talk peace?


Tell me, on what basis do Arabs claim unity with each other? Certainly there are many different ethnic groups and more than one religion within the Arab world. Certainly the Arabs have a history of conquest, what claim did they have to invade spain, for instance? On what basis did the Romans rule over Palestine? Why so indignant about Israel? The earth is no one's to own, and our claims are always impermanent. The current situation of the Palestinians is not a direct result of the establishment of Israel, but of the political desires of those figures in the Arab world who would prolong their suffering and maintain their refugee status for 50 years.
 
The claim to Israel is not based on Zionism, but on actual events.

Who are you trying to kid here Spider? Are you telling me that Israel today would exist independently of Zionism?

Zi•on•ism
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

A dictionary definition is the lowest form possible imo for an argument. Have you actually read Herzl? Do you know what his justifications are? That definition merely tells me the history of the movement, not the actual movement itself.

According to this definition, there is no qualification about race, geneology, or anthropology.

Because a dictionary reference cannot give you the details, please get another argument.

It is just that the jewish people sought a homeland in Palestine.

What do you think “people” connotates? “people”= race, geneology, or anthropology

It is a political movement, not necessarily religious, although for some it was.

It was a purely political movement, and the state of Israel is meant to be an atheist state. Let’s get that straight, what Herzl wanted was a goy state, a state among all states, he even recognized that Jews as they were back then (being religious) were not and cannot be considered a people of the same caliber of the Goyim. Herzl hated the Yid, he hated the way Jews were because it (to him) showed that depravity of the Jewish people. A Zionist is the biggest Anti-Semite and self-hater out there. So keep on rationalizing, and talking about something you know nothing about Spider.

The British, and the UN agreed, and worked towards making this happen. There was added urgency due to the holocaust, and the many refugees it generated. Although they did not want a Jewish state per se, they wanted a Jewish homeland that could govern itself. The result of this movement was that by 1948 about half a million or so Jews ended up in Palestine.


This is completely irrelevant at this stage of the conversation, we have gone beyond that. WE are now dealing with theory.

According to the jewishvirtuallibrary.org,

#2 is based on the UN resolution of 1947 requireing the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.

Which imo was unjustified, and arbitrary, breaking the basic democratic edict of self-determination. But I also recognize the existence of Israel today, for better or for worse. So this is a non-argument.

#3 is important too, they captured the territory in a defensive war.

1948 yes, 1967 no. 1948 cease fire borders are not in contention here, 1967 borders are, so get a clue.

I would add Arab collaboration with Hitler as another reason to give Jews soveriegnty over some Arab land, serves those bastards right.

And how about Irgun’s collaboration with Hitler writing him a letter offering to fight for the Nazi’s? Hmm, does that seem to escape your grasp of history? Or does this:

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Yes the Nazi’s supported Zionism as well, because they hated the same thing…the Jew. They both had the same common goal, to rid Europe of Jewry forever.

Since hostility continues, I don't see any credible reason why they should give it back.

Whose hostility was it that started this? It was Israeli illegal aggression onto territory that does not belong to her, and illegal colonization. So using your own logic, Pals are more then justified in attacking Israeli’s.

Israel should make some concessions, even give some land back, if this would create peace, but which Palestinian is willing to talk peace?

Are Israeli’s?

Tell me, on what basis do Arabs claim unity with each other?

The Arab claim to unity is based on religion, culture, common language, and a common stock which originated from Arabia. Sure there are different creeds under the cultural motif of Arabism, but they have always had a connection with each other. The Ummah, not Palestine is the goal.

Certainly the Arabs have a history of conquest, what claim did they have to invade spain, for instance?

Islam was the basis for that expansion not Arabism.

On what basis did the Romans rule over Palestine?

By invading and then losing their claim to the land when the Muslims came along.

Why so indignant about Israel?

Don’t know, and don’t care, the situation is as is.

The current situation of the Palestinians is not a direct result of the establishment of Israel, but of the political desires of those figures in the Arab world who would prolong their suffering and maintain their refugee status for 50 years.

That can be argued and I don’t disagree with you, but all you mentioned was merely effects not the cause. None of that would be true, if Israel didn’t exist get a new argument. I assume your emotional tirade is over?
 
“people”= race, geneology, or anthropology
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I would implore you to rethink this, its simplistic and wrong.

This is completely irrelevant at this stage of the conversation, we have gone beyond that. WE are now dealing with theory.
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No YOU are dealing with theories, good luck finding someone who wants to argue theory with you.

And how about Irgun’s collaboration with Hitler writing him a letter offering to fight for the Nazi’s? Hmm, does that seem to escape your grasp of history?
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A misguided letter to Hitler does not qualify as collaboration.

Haj Amin al Husaini, the most influential leader of Palestinian Arabs, lived in Germany during the Second World War. He met Hitler, Ribbentrop, and other Nazi leaders on various occasion and attempted to coordinate Nazi and Arab policies in the Middle East. (from The Arab-Israeli Reader, 1970)
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When the war ended, Husseini was arrested in France, but in June 1946, he escaped and made his way to asylum in Egypt. Although there was ample proof to arrest him as a war criminal after the war, the Allies made no effort to do so. They were deterred by Husseini's prestige in the Arab world. In 1946, Yugoslavia, asked for his extradition, but the Arab League and the Egyptian government succeeded in having the demand tabled. [I lost the link to this]
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“Hajj Amin Al Husseini (1895-1974) was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem... He supported the Nazis, and especially their program for the mass murder of the Jews. He visited numerous death camps and encouraged Hitler to extend the "Final Solution" to the Jews of North Africa and Palestine. In 1946 he escaped to Egypt.” [Simon Wiesenthal Center Web Site]
 
I would implore you to rethink this, its simplistic and wrong.

Well people connotates many things yes, but one of is racial.

No YOU are dealing with theories, good luck finding someone who wants to argue theory with you.

Are you are a Zionist? Without knowing Zionist theory? That is a sign of something greater…indoctrination.

A misguided letter to Hitler does not qualify as collaboration.

Oh but it does, it shows a willingness of the Zionist organizations to work along with Hitler to establish a folkish-national Hebraium as so quoted from that famous letter to “Herr Hitler”. Dated in 1941 the beginning of the Holocaust, lest we forget that Zionists refused to save millions of Jews as well from the grips of Hitler, worse then a “Mufti”.

[ (1895-1974) was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem... He supported the Nazis, and especially their program for the mass murder of the Jews. He visited numerous death camps and encouraged Hitler to extend the "Final Solution" to the Jews of North Africa and Palestine. In 1946 he escaped to Egypt.”

Yes the Mufti did that, and it is inexcusable and I am not going to defend what he did. You must think that this Mufti business is foreign to me but it’s not. Both sides, Arab and Zionist had collaborative efforts with the Nazi’s and thus they negate each other. So we are back were we started, Zionists refused to save Jews, and an Arab wanted them to kill more. It was a match made in “heaven”.
 
lest we forget that Zionists refused to save millions of Jews as well from the grips of Hitler, worse then a “Mufti”.
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What do you mean? I don't believe Jews were in any position of power to grant this. I belive Zionist organizations would be willing to do almost anything to prevent genecide, including arranging with Hitler to leave Germany peacefully. It is possible that the Third Reich encouraged this sort of dialogue to lure them into a false sense of security. That's very different than what the Mufti was arranging. Maybe Hitler was considering letting the Arabs carry out the Final Solution.
 
What do you mean? I don't believe Jews were in any position of power to grant this. I belive Zionist organizations would be willing to do almost anything to prevent genecide,

Well you may “believe” all you want but the reality is quite different:

"If I am asked, "Could you give from the UJA moneys to rescue Jews,
'I say, NO! and I say again NO!"
Izaak Greenbaum -- head of Jewish Agency Rescue Committee, February 18, 1943.
Addressed to the Zionist Executive Council.
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Chaim Weizmann, the first president of Israel, made this Zionist policy very explicit:
The hopes of Europe’s six million Jews are centered on emigration. I was asked: “Can you bring six million Jews to Palestine?” I replied, “No.” ... From the depths of the tragedy I want to save ... young people [for Palestine]. The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in a cruel world ... Only the branch of the young shall survive. They have to accept it.

Chaim Weizmann reporting to the Zionist Congress in 1937 on his testimony before the Peel Commission in London, July 1937. Cited in Yahya, p. 55.
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Satisfied, there’s more if you want it?



As one tsadik put it, "We didn't put ourselves into the exile and we can't take ourselves out." There were some rabbis who saw the fervor over secular Zionism as an abandonment of the ancient belief in the ge'ula, substituting instead, the goal of an ordinary national state.
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It is possible that the Third Reich encouraged this sort of dialogue to lure them into a false sense of security.

Yes let’s rationalize shall we? Hitler did not want to kill the Jews; he wanted to quick them out of Europe. He started to kill them en masse because of many factors, but it was not originally the plan.

That's very different than what the Mufti was arranging. Maybe Hitler was considering letting the Arabs carry out the Final Solution.

Conspiracy theories Spider belong in the cesspool, don’t insult me anymore.
 
Israelis threaten to attack lawful picket of Marks and Spencer.​
For nearly four years, supporters of Palestine have organised a Saturday picket outside Marks and Spencer in Market Street, Manchester, protesting M&S's support for the Israeli state and its sale of Israeli goods. Called by Manchester Victory to the Intifada, pickets start at 12 noon and continue to 3pm.

http://islam4you.co.uk/Articles/AA/preereleaseintofada.htm
 
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crazy151drinker said:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/07/19/sudan.rapes.reut/index.html

Muslims raping people? Who would have thought.........
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no crazy151drinker, they are men raping women who happen to be Muslim. in almost every single war tens of thousands of women are raped in Iraq women have been raped. a woman is raped around the world every, i dont know lets say 5 seconds (probably less the 5). now those rapists are muslims, christians, hindus, atheists everything etc.

and you dont think the Christians in Sudan haven't raped the Muslims women? :eek:
 
its called a "Poisoning the Well" when you try tore bring up unfavorable information about a person or group of people to validate a argument against them.

this argument above is also a Red Haring and does not apply to the thread, return the original topic at once.
 
The only ones that care about Arab Muslim so called "palestinians" are the decent Israeli victims, and DEATH & TORTURE is what the DEATH-CULT 'palestine' pays them back.
 
Israeli soldiers wounds Palestinian child
Al Bawaba - 7/22/2004 3:30:00 PM GMT

Source: Al Bawaba

Israeli occupation troops early Thursday wounded a Palestinian child and demolished three houses in the Gaza Strip city of Rafah, witnesses said.

Local sources reported that Israeli soldiers, backed by tanks and armored personnel carriers, stormed al-Sho'ot neighborhood, and opened heavy machine gunfire at houses, wounding a Palestinian child and causing extreme damages.

WAFA reported that Israeli soldiers broke into some houses and launched a search campaign, forcing inhabitants to leave, adding that Israeli engineering unit planted dynamites in three houses, and then blew them up, leaving their owners homeless.

Elsewhere, Israeli soldiers arrested three Palestinians in Khan Younis, in the south of Gaza Strip.

Eyewitnesses said that Israeli soldiers closed al-Matahen checkpoint, which connects the south of the Strip to its north.

Meanwhile, Israeli tanks and bulldozers moved into al-Sekka street and besieged a house which belongs to Said al-Masri, turning it into military post.

Early on Thursday, Israeli Apache helicopters fired at least three missiles at a metal workshop in the western part of Khan Younis.

Witnesses said that the Apache air strike targeted a local Palestinian metal workshop that belongs to Mahmoud Salhiya, adding that they heard huge explosions and the workshop was damaged.

Earlier today, the Israeli left-wing "Peace Now" movement claimed that in the past two months, 445,000 square meters were added to the settlements in the West bank and the Gaza Strip.

Peace Now has been operating photography flights, which record changes in the structure of the settlement outposts. These flights are carried out once a month.

The Latest Peace Now report, unveiled in a press conference in Tel Aviv, indicated that more than 190,000 square meters were added to settlements in the Gaza Strip, while most of the changes were in the preparation of fields for agricultural purposes.

The biggest expansion was recorded in the Gaza Strip settlement of Bnei Atzmona – 113,000 sq. m.

According to the report, settlements in the West Bank also expanded by 265,000 sq.m. In the settlement of Sa-Nor, near Jenin, four caravans have been positioned.

"All over the territories more than 3,100 housing units are being built, as well as the preparation for another few thousand housing units," a movement representative said
 
What is Israel supposed to do, there is no one left in Palestine to negotiate peace with.

Early on Thursday, Israeli Apache helicopters fired at least three missiles at a metal workshop in the western part of Khan Younis.

Witnesses said that the Apache air strike targeted a local Palestinian metal workshop that belongs to Mahmoud Salhiya, adding that they heard huge explosions and the workshop was damaged.
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...and they are still manufacturing bombs.
 
What is Israel supposed to do, there is no one left in Palestine to negotiate peace with.

Well the first thing Israel can do is to follow international law, and do what is necessary. Israel is putting herself in the line of fire, her insistence on extra-judicial killings, the occupation, the illegal wall, and illegal colonization of land all put Israel and Israeli’s in the line of fire. Really Israeli’s shouldn’t be complaining they made this mess, now they have to fix it. It was Israel’s actions that radicalized elements inside Palestine. If Israeli’s really want to live in peace, well you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
 
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