Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict
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I really don't care wether you consider me Jewish or not. Jewishness is self-defined.
The original British mandate was replaced with a Partition Resolution calling for separate Jewish and Arab states. What is your point?
The original British mandate was replaced with a Partition Resolution calling for separate Jewish and Arab states. What is your point?
I really don't care wether you consider me Jewish or not. Jewishness is self-defined.
You cannot be serious can you Spider? I mean really if that “self-definition” were true, then there would be no need to converse with Outlandish, or defending a position that was obviously group oriented not individualistic. So Spider I’m not buying that, and you know as well as I do that “self- definition” by definition is anti-intellectual.
The original British mandate was replaced with a Partition Resolution calling for separate Jewish and Arab states. What is your point?
White Paper 1939 read up on it, really interesting:
Hmm…rather interesting isn’t it that the Brits realized that the Balfour declaration was wrong and that a “Jewish” state would subjugate the majority Arab population, which would fit into your ethic Spider of self-determination by the majority of the population.
You cannot be serious can you Spider? I mean really if that “self-definition” were true, then there would be no need to converse with Outlandish, or defending a position that was obviously group oriented not individualistic. So Spider I’m not buying that, and you know as well as I do that “self- definition” by definition is anti-intellectual.
The original British mandate was replaced with a Partition Resolution calling for separate Jewish and Arab states. What is your point?
White Paper 1939 read up on it, really interesting:
Hmm…rather interesting isn’t it that the Brits realized that the Balfour declaration was wrong and that a “Jewish” state would subjugate the majority Arab population, which would fit into your ethic Spider of self-determination by the majority of the population.
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They did not want Palestine to become a Jewish state, that is true, nor did they want it to be an Arab state. They wanted Jewish immigration to continue and wanted to establish a "Jewish national home", in an independent country ruled by Arabs and Jews alike. My ethic of self determination applies equally to Jews and Palestinians. However, the War of Independence changed the situation, and revealed the impossibility of a single state. I support the right of Palestinians to a state and self-rule; at the same time, I strongly condemn their actions since 1948.
They (Pals) didn’t exist in 1948; you are incorrectly punishing the wrong people. They didn’t invade Israel, the Arab states around Israel did, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan, not Palestine. The Balfour Declaration was considered void after 1939, and no body supported a “Jewish” state until 1948 (out of political necessity), no one wanted Israel to exist because of the bull shit we have to deal with now. So Spider are you a Jew or are you a “Jew”? I’m very curious.
Yet under the previous arrangement, Jewish population in the "Jewish national home" grew to over 500,000, a third of the population. Many were refugees from WWII. I feel this immigration was both ethical and legal. What happened after this is a matter for debate.
What do you mean? I acknowledge my Jewish heritage, I descended from Eastern European Jews near Poland and Russia, my parents and grandparents were Jewish (my british Grandmother converted). I am culturally and anthropologically Jewish, I just do not practice Judaism. I'm as Jewish as Yeshua (Jesus), who also had rather unconventional ideas about religion.
Yet under the previous arrangement, Jewish population in the "Jewish national home" grew to over 500,000, a third of the population. Many were refugees from WWII. I feel this immigration was both ethical and legal.
That still does not mean that they were the majority of the population. Secondly I have personally never objected to the immigration of Jews to the Levant, what I object to is the establishment of a state my a minority over the majority. Migration imo is not the issue, the issue is arbitrary and unethical (under the idea of self-determination) establishment of a state.
What do you mean? I acknowledge my Jewish heritage,
That’s great that you acknowledge you have Jewish cultural heritage, it still doesn’t mean you are Jewish. I acknowledge my heritage as well, but that’s not why I am what I am.
I descended from Eastern European Jews near Poland and Russia, my parents and grandparents were Jewish (my british Grandmother converted).
Firstly you are Eastern European, and thus Slavic not “Jewish” racially. Your Grandmother is what interests me the most, see look at what you wrote, she converted, thus by definition you can become a Jew just as much as you can “unbecome” (lack of a better term) a Jew. Secondly the conversation is telling because you consider what Zionists would consider a non-Jew, a Jew, why?
I am culturally and anthropologically Jewish
You may be culturally partially-Jewish, but there is no anthropological connection to Hebrews here, you are Slavic.Also with the inclusion of your Anglo-Saxon grandmother, you have just added “goy” blood to your bloodline.
I just do not practice Judaism. I'm as Jewish as Yeshua (Jesus), who also had rather unconventional ideas about religion.
No your not, although Jesus did deviate from traditional Jewish beliefs he still believed in G-d and the Torah things you do not. By your own definition I am more Jewish then you…
That still does not mean that they were the majority of the population. Secondly I have personally never objected to the immigration of Jews to the Levant, what I object to is the establishment of a state my a minority over the majority. Migration imo is not the issue, the issue is arbitrary and unethical (under the idea of self-determination) establishment of a state.
What do you mean? I acknowledge my Jewish heritage,
That’s great that you acknowledge you have Jewish cultural heritage, it still doesn’t mean you are Jewish. I acknowledge my heritage as well, but that’s not why I am what I am.
I descended from Eastern European Jews near Poland and Russia, my parents and grandparents were Jewish (my british Grandmother converted).
Firstly you are Eastern European, and thus Slavic not “Jewish” racially. Your Grandmother is what interests me the most, see look at what you wrote, she converted, thus by definition you can become a Jew just as much as you can “unbecome” (lack of a better term) a Jew. Secondly the conversation is telling because you consider what Zionists would consider a non-Jew, a Jew, why?
I am culturally and anthropologically Jewish
You may be culturally partially-Jewish, but there is no anthropological connection to Hebrews here, you are Slavic.Also with the inclusion of your Anglo-Saxon grandmother, you have just added “goy” blood to your bloodline.
I just do not practice Judaism. I'm as Jewish as Yeshua (Jesus), who also had rather unconventional ideas about religion.
No your not, although Jesus did deviate from traditional Jewish beliefs he still believed in G-d and the Torah things you do not. By your own definition I am more Jewish then you…
, I guess you must think us simple folk are awed by that word... Its not annoying, just makes people think you write just read your'e own posts and gloat...
Firstly, it is annoying, I even annoy myself sometimes. Secondly, I do gloat sometimes but because I have a reason too. See I hardly ever use Cognitive when I start a post; it is usually used when I know my opponent has no more points. So obviously it’s not for my own consumption but rather for my opponent to know it’s over.
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Firstly, it is annoying, I even annoy myself sometimes. Secondly, I do gloat sometimes but because I have a reason too. See I hardly ever use Cognitive when I start a post; it is usually used when I know my opponent has no more points. So obviously it’s not for my own consumption but rather for my opponent to know it’s over.
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I am Ashkenazi, I think that's the correct term. There is no one jewish race, but separate ethnic groups did develop over time. The first Jews out of Israel married local women, anyway that doesn't matter. Yes, you can become a Jew, but conversion is not too common. I gather that the only credible connection to the past that you can acknowledge is race. This is a simplistic idea which I do not share. My grandmother became Jewish which gave her just as much of a strong connection to the ancient jews as any Torah-thumping Zionist.
Good, I object to a minority controlling a majority as well, it is not an ideal situation, and I don't think it is what the Zionists intended, but it was a logical reaction to events at the time. There is much room for improvement.
I don't think jews are so concerned about "bloodlines", that's a goy thing. We don't care. I lost my virginity to a Jewish girl, and she was black.
congradulations! If you want to think of yourself as Jewish go right ahead! I think if you want to immigrate to Israel, there are certain requirements for proving your jewishness, no doubt they have it all written out.
It's debateable what Jesus actually believed. I think he was more radical than modern Christians like to admit.
Its true that I am all but assimilated into American culture, I even had a German girlfriend for a while, and my kids will probably not think of themselves as Jewish at all. I think of myself as Jewish, and that's all that really matters, I like to talk about God, and religious subjects, I even saw God a couple times, but I don't think you have to believe in him. According to Jewish tradition, Jewishness is conferred by your mother.
Anthropological connections can be purely social. Its the larger trends that matter, not individual differences.
Yes, you can become a Jew, but conversion is not too common. I gather that the only credible connection to the past that you can acknowledge is race.
Blood is the only connection we have to our land, not ideology, or culture. The mere fact that I can become a Jew and then immigrate to Israel and become a citizen is showing me and many more that there is very highly fallacious nature in the concept of being Jewish independently of religion.
This is a simplistic idea which I do not share.
It’s not meant to be complex, you are making into something that it is not. Simplicity sometimes scares the greatest of ideologues why? Because ideology depends on deep seated intellectual thought, that are usually wrong.
My grandmother became Jewish which gave her just as much of a strong connection to the ancient jews as any Torah-thumping Zionist.
Are you serious? Are you telling me that now she is a Hebrew? No this is already reaching levels of delirium.
Good, I object to a minority controlling a majority as well, it is not an ideal situation, and I don't think it is what the Zionists intended, but it was a logical reaction to events at the time.
I see you are having a internal conflict, you support the ideals of self-determination but when it comes to an issue that you identify with personally it’s null and void? Why the duplicity in your thought? I think you are confused, the Zionists intended one thing, to create a secular state, irregardless of the Arab population. The Arabs were of no concern to Zionists as exemplified in this quote:
Quite Frankly many eminent Zionists have discussed the idea of expelling Arabs from the region.
I don't think jews are so concerned about "bloodlines", that's a goy thing.
Your right it is “goy” thing in which you are part of. A Jew doesn’t care about bloodlines because they have no blood tie, they know that they are tied to each other by their monotheistic belief in G-d, not the Golden calf that is Zionism, and Israel. There is passage in the “Goyim book” about people like you from G-d:
So play your games… the more you do the better it is for Christians like me.
congradulations! If you want to think of yourself as Jewish go right ahead!
Of course I don’t think I’m Jewish, the reason is because I am Catholic. But my ancestors could very well have been Jewish, using your logic of “race” I should have no problem going to Israel and claiming it as mu own.
I think if you want to immigrate to Israel, there are certain requirements for proving your jewishness,
Is one…being of the Jewish faith?
I think of myself as Jewish, and that's all that really matters, I like to talk about God, and religious subjects, I even saw God a couple times, but I don't think you have to believe in him. According to Jewish tradition, Jewishness is conferred by your mother.
Jewishness is passed through your mother that is true, but not being Jew. Why is your mother Jewish? Surely not because she looks like a Jew, no because she is religiously Jewish. If you give up on that religion that connection should be void.
Its the larger trends that matter, not individual differences.
Then this: I think of myself as Jewish, and that's all that really matters Is Bull Shit on your part.
Blood is the only connection we have to our land, not ideology, or culture. The mere fact that I can become a Jew and then immigrate to Israel and become a citizen is showing me and many more that there is very highly fallacious nature in the concept of being Jewish independently of religion.
This is a simplistic idea which I do not share.
It’s not meant to be complex, you are making into something that it is not. Simplicity sometimes scares the greatest of ideologues why? Because ideology depends on deep seated intellectual thought, that are usually wrong.
My grandmother became Jewish which gave her just as much of a strong connection to the ancient jews as any Torah-thumping Zionist.
Are you serious? Are you telling me that now she is a Hebrew? No this is already reaching levels of delirium.
Good, I object to a minority controlling a majority as well, it is not an ideal situation, and I don't think it is what the Zionists intended, but it was a logical reaction to events at the time.
I see you are having a internal conflict, you support the ideals of self-determination but when it comes to an issue that you identify with personally it’s null and void? Why the duplicity in your thought? I think you are confused, the Zionists intended one thing, to create a secular state, irregardless of the Arab population. The Arabs were of no concern to Zionists as exemplified in this quote:
Quite Frankly many eminent Zionists have discussed the idea of expelling Arabs from the region.
I don't think jews are so concerned about "bloodlines", that's a goy thing.
Your right it is “goy” thing in which you are part of. A Jew doesn’t care about bloodlines because they have no blood tie, they know that they are tied to each other by their monotheistic belief in G-d, not the Golden calf that is Zionism, and Israel. There is passage in the “Goyim book” about people like you from G-d:
So play your games… the more you do the better it is for Christians like me.
congradulations! If you want to think of yourself as Jewish go right ahead!
Of course I don’t think I’m Jewish, the reason is because I am Catholic. But my ancestors could very well have been Jewish, using your logic of “race” I should have no problem going to Israel and claiming it as mu own.
I think if you want to immigrate to Israel, there are certain requirements for proving your jewishness,
Is one…being of the Jewish faith?
I think of myself as Jewish, and that's all that really matters, I like to talk about God, and religious subjects, I even saw God a couple times, but I don't think you have to believe in him. According to Jewish tradition, Jewishness is conferred by your mother.
Jewishness is passed through your mother that is true, but not being Jew. Why is your mother Jewish? Surely not because she looks like a Jew, no because she is religiously Jewish. If you give up on that religion that connection should be void.
Its the larger trends that matter, not individual differences.
Then this: I think of myself as Jewish, and that's all that really matters Is Bull Shit on your part.
Well, there's your mistake right there. When Jews of the past raised there glasses in a toast, "next year in Jerusalem", they kept the dream alive of going home again. If they picked up some genetic diversity along the way, that was inevitable.
I support the right of Palestinians to self-rule, and I'm doing the best I can to make that happen, hell, I voted for Clinton!
Not nessesarily... you can be an atheist, unless it is the case where your parents (or just your mom) were not Jewish, in which case a religious conversion is required. Don't quote me on that, I'm not too sure of the rules.
Jewishness is complicated because it's not just religion, it is an ethnic type (but not always), and a culture.
You often see white looking people that say they are native Americans. They may have some blood connection, but the most important factor is that they participate in Indian culture, this is what makes them Indians, not race.
Well, there's your mistake right there.
No as you shall see you are gravely mistaken:
When Jews of the past raised there glasses in a toast, "next year in Jerusalem", they kept the dream alive of going home again.
Under what conditions? They hoped for the Messiah to come and take them to Israel. It’s not because they felt racially connected to Israel. Zionism is merely an acceleration of that, without a Messiah. They were waiting for a reason Spidergoat, it’s not because they couldn’t afford to go.
I support the right of Palestinians to self-rule, and I'm doing the best I can to make that happen, hell, I voted for Clinton!
Kudos and you have my support for that. Likewise I accept that Jews live in the Levant now, and if a two state solution is possible I support it. Of course two states is folly, because both sides have extremist and expansionist elements. One state is my solution, and imo the only logical conclusion.
Not nessesarily... you can be an atheist, unless it is the case where your parents (or just your mom) were not Jewish, in which case a religious conversion is required. Don't quote me on that, I'm not too sure of the rules.
I have asked a Rabbi over the question of the “mother”, I will be awaiting his answer.
Jewishness is complicated because it's not just religion, it is an ethnic type (but not always), and a culture.
Again ethnicity and culture cannot exist independently of their originating cause. Can I be European yet black, is he white just because he speaks a white language? Can I be Chinese yet be white? Can I be Catholic yet call my God Allah? Could I be a Dog yet a Cat?
You often see white looking people that say they are native Americans. They may have some blood connection, but the most important factor is that they participate in Indian culture, this is what makes them Indians, not race.
But being a modern Native American does not facilitate religion, it facilitates are culture that exists along with language, a common history on that land, and one racial group. Being Jewish is based on one thing, religion, why? Because everything Jewish from language, to customs, to culture originates from that. If you are not religious you have just absolved yourself from the glue that sticks Jews together. Israel is indeed a Golden Calf; it sticks all you “pseudo-Jews” together, into feeling that you are still “Jewish” because the glue is the state not the religion. That’s why G-d’s words speak volumes:
The Synagogue of Satan being Zionism, the Golden Calf that excuses your “pseudo-Judaism”. If you don’t want to see the situation for what it is, that’s your delirium. Note that revelations is the book of prophesies foreseeing this Zionist mess.
No as you shall see you are gravely mistaken:
When Jews of the past raised there glasses in a toast, "next year in Jerusalem", they kept the dream alive of going home again.
Under what conditions? They hoped for the Messiah to come and take them to Israel. It’s not because they felt racially connected to Israel. Zionism is merely an acceleration of that, without a Messiah. They were waiting for a reason Spidergoat, it’s not because they couldn’t afford to go.
I support the right of Palestinians to self-rule, and I'm doing the best I can to make that happen, hell, I voted for Clinton!
Kudos and you have my support for that. Likewise I accept that Jews live in the Levant now, and if a two state solution is possible I support it. Of course two states is folly, because both sides have extremist and expansionist elements. One state is my solution, and imo the only logical conclusion.
Not nessesarily... you can be an atheist, unless it is the case where your parents (or just your mom) were not Jewish, in which case a religious conversion is required. Don't quote me on that, I'm not too sure of the rules.
I have asked a Rabbi over the question of the “mother”, I will be awaiting his answer.
Jewishness is complicated because it's not just religion, it is an ethnic type (but not always), and a culture.
Again ethnicity and culture cannot exist independently of their originating cause. Can I be European yet black, is he white just because he speaks a white language? Can I be Chinese yet be white? Can I be Catholic yet call my God Allah? Could I be a Dog yet a Cat?
You often see white looking people that say they are native Americans. They may have some blood connection, but the most important factor is that they participate in Indian culture, this is what makes them Indians, not race.
But being a modern Native American does not facilitate religion, it facilitates are culture that exists along with language, a common history on that land, and one racial group. Being Jewish is based on one thing, religion, why? Because everything Jewish from language, to customs, to culture originates from that. If you are not religious you have just absolved yourself from the glue that sticks Jews together. Israel is indeed a Golden Calf; it sticks all you “pseudo-Jews” together, into feeling that you are still “Jewish” because the glue is the state not the religion. That’s why G-d’s words speak volumes:
The Synagogue of Satan being Zionism, the Golden Calf that excuses your “pseudo-Judaism”. If you don’t want to see the situation for what it is, that’s your delirium. Note that revelations is the book of prophesies foreseeing this Zionist mess.
Again, race is BS, they felt culturally connected to Israel. Even after 2-300 hundred years, you can find Indians with only a small percentage of identifiable Indian genes, imagine what would happen to a group over 2,000 years. Some people with a larger quantity of Indian genes don't even know it, and are totally assimilated, and some with but a small amount of Indian "blood" are active participants in the culture, and think of themselves as totally Indian. That's because their isolation is not absolute. Same with the Jews.
Perhaps the immigration was all part of god's plan, it was futuitous, wasn't it? WWII diplaces all the Jews, and they coalesce into one political group in Palestine.
Yes. Ethnicity and culture can indeed exist independently of the original cause. You can be ethnically Jewish, yet a muslim. It is also true that in the past, the divisions were more pronounced, especially in the years before WWII. The ease of mobility in modern countries, as well as the disruption of world wars, has caused many boundries to dissolve.
Do you want to explain how the language of Yiddish has a religious origin? It is derived from German.
You obviously do not understand Jewish culture. Diversity of opinion is welcome, and debate is valued. There is a long tradition of arguing about what religion really means, and about the finer points of worship. Many participants in Christianity only go to church for social reasons, and every other day of the week, they are non-religious. Yet they self-identify as Christians, and hold shared values.
I don't buy all that biblical shit about prophecy... perhaps the synagogue of Satan refers to Palestinians.
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