Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[spidergoat]

my god man.
I'm not talking about mere "cultural" connection...jesus H christ.
the zionist movement + ideology claims eastern european have more inherent rights to land than the palestinians.

The zionist movement may claim such a thing, but I don't. I'm trying to introduce a new idea, namely that race is irrelevent, and culture is primary.

zionism makes the false and falacious assertion that all jews are somehow part of the same "race" and all jews specifically eastern european jews by that reasoning have anthropological grounds to claim inherent rights to the land of palestine at the expense of the palestinian peoples already living there for centuries.

With regards to our argument this is a strawman. I have never said Jews are entitled to the land of Israel by virtue of them being the same race as ancient Jews, although I think there actually are genetic markers that prove a continuity with the past among certain european Jewish populations.

the cultural connection is only on the basis of religious belief, but this irrelevant to this debate.

I disagree with both these points. Culture is more than religion, and futhermore, culture is far from irrelevent to this debate.

This isnt mere cultural connection, this is active oppression + brutality + eviction of an indiginous peoples from their land.

The popular Arab uprising against Jews happened before anyone was brutalized, oppressed, or evicted, and since the 1890's the Jews were just as indiginous as any Arab. I understand that this violence was a terrible tragedy, but it was not the inevitable outcome of Zionism.

 

[spidergoat]

I should qualify my statement, and say that probably the Bedoins are indiginous to the area, and some Arab families, but there was also Arab immigration, too. Some suicide bombers are not even from Palestine at all. What about those that came as a result of Jewish development? The Jews were also, notably, the majority population in Jerusalem.

What if, as a Buddhist, I became curious about China. I would would be drawn there, and want to live near the origins of my religion. What if China were a sparsely populated and underdeveloped rural area, but the urban center was a majority Buddhist, and these people welcomed your immigration? What if there was no real organized country there at all, needing pioneers, and in your country, Buddhists were getting burned at the stake in the millions, as witches.

I think its a good analogy. You cannot argue that the Jews came into a pre-existing, developed society with the intent to usurp the local resources and dominate the native farmers. Just like the Romans, they sought to improve things, and generate wealth, and they did.

 

[outlandish]

spidergoat:

The zionist movement may claim such a thing, but I don't

LMAO!!!!! you're cracking me up spider.

1) the zionist may claim such??! Bollocks they do. what is this spidergoat's zionist revision?!!

2) what you do or do not claim is totally irrelevant to this discussion, again wtf is this?? spider re writes zionism??? get real

I'm trying to introduce a new idea, namely that race is irrelevent, and culture is primary.

1) don't you worry yourself with your newfangled ideas, and stick to the ideas relevant to this debate please.

2) I'm sure the palestinians will sleep a little more soundly in their refugee camps tonight on hearing of spidergoats new ideas on utopia

With regards to our argument this is a strawman

we're in an argument regarding zionism, I give you a concise overview of zionism and you say that's a strawman with regards to this argument (which regards zionism,!!!!)......please do explain this to me??

although I think there actually are genetic markers that prove a continuity with the past among certain european Jewish populations.

1) no. There simply was no migration of the ancient semetic jews to europe. As I mentioned earlier there was diaspora to surrounding lands (syria iraq, jordan egypt etc).

here is the origin of your european jews (as I have posted before):

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

2) even if there was an anthropological link between euro jews + the arabs of pal/syria/leb/jor the key question still remains:

would these eastern europeans have the right to the land of the arabs to the extent that they actively migrate their and evict the indiginous peoples from that land???
no off course not, but this is exactly what happened/is happening.

and since the 1890's the Jews were just as indiginous as any Arab.

I'm assuming you're talking about the palestinian jews right? newsflash they are arab!!!! (god give me strength!!)

spider ive gone over this before:

a palestinian muslim + a palestinian jew are both arabs, they look completely the same since they are the same peoples....just different (and not even that different) beliefs

The popular Arab uprising against Jews happened before anyone was brutalized, oppressed, or evicted

really?? erm no wrong again. Palestinian jews have lived alongside their muslim + christian brothers for centuries (as have all arab xian/muslims/jews) the problem started when your european aetheist buddies got given palestine on a silver platter by the british .

What if, as a Buddhist, I became curious about China. I would would be drawn there, and want to live near the origins of my religion. What if China were a sparsely populated and underdeveloped rural area, but the urban center was a majority Buddhist, and these people welcomed your immigration? What if there was no real organized country there at all, needing pioneers, and in your country, Buddhists were getting burned at the stake in the millions, as witches

????

You cannot argue that the Jews came into a pre-existing, developed society with the intent to usurp the local resources and dominate the native farmers. Just like the Romans, they sought to improve things, and generate wealth, and they did.

1) palestine was a pre-exsisting developed society!! wtf are you talking about???!!!
2)usurp the local resources?? you bet your ass that's exactly what they did!
you think the stern and ingrun went over there to start a picnic with the palestinians?!!!!
dominate the local farmers??? no...they kicked most of their asses out, and stuck the rest in refugee camps, gave them 2 scraps of shitty land, and on top of that still continue to build settlements on those scraps of land they so kindly "gave" the "local farmers"

 

[outlandish]

spidergoat:

You cannot argue that the Jews came into a pre-existing, developed society with the intent to usurp the local resources and dominate the native farmers. Just like the Romans,

spider not only is your knowledge on zionism poor, but your zionism historical knowledge is even worse:

Contrary to the mainstream Zionist leadership, Jabotinsky publicly spoke his mind, and in our opinion, he also strategically influenced the conduct of the Zionist movement towards the Palestinian people. From the start, he criticized the ideologies in the Zionist leadership (such as Ben-Gurion and Moshe Sharett) who thought that Palestinians could be bribed into selling their country and rights. Jabotinsky thought that Jewish justice overrides Palestinian rights, and he was the first to warn the Zionist Movement that the clash between Jewish and Palestinian nationalisms is inevitable,


http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story640.html

Here are some quotes from your friendly zionist fascist buddy Jabby:


".... Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an IRON WALL which they will be powerless to break down. ....a voluntary agreement is just not possible. As long as the Arabs preserve a gleam of hope that they will succeed in getting rid of us, nothing in the world can cause them to relinquish this hope, precisely because they are not a rubble but a living people. And a living people will be ready to yield on such fateful issues only when they give up all hope of getting rid of the Alien Settlers. Only then will extremist groups with their slogan 'No, never' lose their influence, and only then their influence be transferred to more moderate groups. And only then will the moderates offer suggestions for compromise. Then only will they begin bargaining with us on practical matters, such as guarantees against PUSHING THEM OUT, and equality of civil, and national rights."


"Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native [Palestinian] population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop under the protection of a force independent of the local population --an iron wall which the native [Palestinian] population cannot break through. This is, in to, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 28)

"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find a benefactor who will maintain the garrison on your behalf. ... Zionism is a colonizing adventure and, therefore, it stands or falls on the question of armed forces." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 45)

"The tragedy lies in the fact that there is a collision here between two truths ..... But our justice is greater. The Arabs is culturally backward , but his instinctive patriotism is just as pure and noble as our own; it can not be bought, it can only be curbed ... force majeure." (Righteous Victims, p. 108)

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The arab is culturaly backward eh spider? Just the same misconception as you have....you and jabby might be brothers.

and here's the irony of irony ....moses + abraham were fucking arabs

 

[spidergoat]

Jesus, can we talk about what actually happened, not some armchair American Zionist ideologue (can you say strawman)? I don't agree that Arabs are culturally backwards.

next...

 

[outlandish]

Jesus, can we talk about what actually happened, not some armchair American Zionist ideologue (can you say strawman)? I don't agree that Arabs are culturally backwards.

next...

We are (well I am) bloody talking about what actually happened spider ....for gods sake wake up!
What the hell have I been talking about since page 27??

The problem is that "what happened" doesn't fit with the fluffy pink zionist friendly vague mish-mash history you have ratltling around in the darkness of your head.

I just gave you a post about jabotinsky....that's what motherfucking happened.

You think jabby and his crew went in to start a picnic???

read that biog + those quotes.....if they had been uttered by an "arab" you'd be the first person to shout "tewawist"

the modern state of israel was founded by terrorists, using terrorism.

 

[Axes]

U got a source to your'e claim that this is a fascist uniform? cause if Im not mistaken its a wwI vintage military uniform, probably turkish, Ill check.

 

[spidergoat]

I disagree that there is no anthropological link between ancient jews and modern ones. But even if true, it's irrelevant, the cultural link means more than genetic markers. If Jews have a right to Israel at all, that means any Jew- Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiian, whatever. In a way, I seek to strengthen this argument, and it would be justified if no one lived in Palestine. However this idea is not just because it denies the rights of those people living in "Zion" already. To this extent, we agree.

However the denial of the rights of Palestinians to their land is not based on this idea, but was the outcome of Arab violence that erupted over British partition. What did British partition have to do with this particular Zionist idea?
Immigration to Israel was only partially based on Zionism, remember WWII?

Don't split hairs over the meaning of "arab", I know there are many variations and shadings, there are Israeli Arabs, and Palestinian Jews, etc... For the sake of clarity, let's just keep it simple.

what you do or do not claim is totally irrelevant to this discussion, again wtf is this?? spider re writes zionism??? get real

Nonsense, I'm trying to explain that Israel's existence is not based on Zionist ideology, since the situation is more complicated than that. I'm sure rejecting Zionism is an easy debate, since the arguments against it have no doubt been clarified for you on many websites. But ideology is only a part of the equation.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Well, it looks like the WW1 uniforms. And also, it is not sure that this guy was a fascist, but I suppose it depends on your sources...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/jabotinsky.html

 

[outlandish]

U got a source to your'e claim that this is a fascist uniform? cause if Im not mistaken its a wwI vintage military uniform, probably turkish, Ill check.

the man makes the clothes, the clothes do not make the man.

The man was a fascist, if he'd been wearing nothing but a push up bra and G string....it'd still be a fascist uniform.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Most sources I find describe him as a liberal. But I suppose that opinions may differ (of course, the palestinians from which you have taken your source might think different).

As I said, most times he is regarded as liberal and very seldom do you fond links that describe him as a fascist.

A quote from Jabotinsky´s philosophy:

"For me, and for all freedom lovers, neither an ant's nest nor a beehive can be model for a human society. A collectivist regimen, which enslaves the individual's personality, is not preferable to a feudal or autocratic regimen. 'The equality and the justice' of such a regimen will be based on organized production, distribution, and consumption -- coordinated by the govern: If somebody will not adapt to this system, the heavy hand of the govern will fall on him, or he will be hanged on a tree -- in the name of the equality and the justice. No: One thousand times Bakunin was right when he said to Marx that if workers would succeed setting up the new regimen that Marx advocated, it will be not less tyrannical than its precursor. But, real equality and individualism are allied. All individuals are equal: If somebody would fall at the side of the way in the march to progress, society must help him to stand up again."

 

[outlandish]

dream:
don't paint the bloody history of palestine + zionism with your "user" firendly conscience appeasing zionist apologist brush.

Historical events of palestine combined with the present isr govt hard line strategy speak for themselves.

1)Zionist - Nazi cooperation before WW II

*Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum of support to the Nazi Party on 21.06.1933. In it the Federation noted....

*
Mussolini set up squadrons of the Revisionist Zionist youth movement, Betar, in black shirts in emulation of his own Fascist bands.

*Consequently, the Zionists brought Baron Von Mildenstein of the S.S. Security Service to Palestine for a six-month visit in support of Zionism. This visit led to a twelve-part report by Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda, in Der Angriff (The Assault) in 1934 praising Zionism. Goebbels ordered a medallion struck with the Swastika on one side, and on the other, the Zionist Star of David. In May 1935, Reinhardt Heydrich, the chief of the S.S. Security Service, wrote an article in which he separated Jews into "two categories."

http://www.iyp.org/polish/history/antypolonizmy/jedwabne_en_101.html

2)German Zionism Offers to Collaborate with Nazism
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch05.htm

3)Hitler Looks at Zionism
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch07.htm

4)Zionism and Italian Fascism, 1922-1933
chap 4: http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

 

[outlandish]

I disagree that there is no anthropological link between ancient jews and modern ones. But even if true, it's irrelevant, the cultural link means more than genetic markers. If Jews have a right to Israel at all, that means any Jew- Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiian, whatever. In a way, I seek to strengthen this argument, and it would be justified if no one lived in Palestine. However this idea is not just because it denies the rights of those people living in "Zion" already. To this extent, we agree.

However the denial of the rights of Palestinians to their land is not based on this idea, but was the outcome of Arab violence that erupted over British partition. What did British partition have to do with this particular Zionist idea?
Immigration to Israel was only partially based on Zionism, remember WWII?

Don't split hairs over the meaning of "arab", I know there are many variations and shadings, there are Israeli Arabs, and Palestinian Jews, etc... For the sake of clarity, let's just keep it simple.

Nonsense, I'm trying to explain that Israel's existence is not based on Zionist ideology, since the situation is more complicated than that. I'm sure rejecting Zionism is an easy debate, since the arguments against it have no doubt been clarified for you on many websites. But ideology is only a part of the equation.

I disagree that there is no anthropological link between ancient jews and modern ones.

and when did you become an expert on anthropology?
you still cant differentiate "modern jews" nitwit.
LET ME TAKE IT SLOW FOR YOU ONE MORE TIME:

1) "modern" eastern euro jews have NO genealogical/anthropological connection with the ancient assyrian/canaanites jews ok??

dont argue with me, go argue with Arthur Koestler: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

2) even the falash jews who are the closest descendants of the original arab jews have no DNA link.....ooooooh but your fucking slavic fascist are direct descendants of abraham right?????

when are you going to stop embrassing yourself with this anthropology nonsense????


http://www.ethioguide.com/aa-ethiog...Archive/1299/origin of falasha_jews122399.htm

A study of the genetic code of the Falasha reveals that they were descended from ancient inhabitants of Ethiopia and not Jews from Palestine, two French geneticists announced in a study published in a scientific journal

If Jews have a right to Israel at all, that means any Jew- Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiian,

NO NO NO!!!!!!

now you really are being dumb....after all these pages you still dont get it do you????

 

[spidergoat]

It seems the Zionist interest in a Jewish homeland coincided briefly with the interests of the Nazis. Of course, this all happened before we knew was a murderous bunch the Nazis were.

I would refer you to the record of the conversation between the fuhrer and the grand Mufti of Jerusalem on November 28, 1941, in Berlin...

...some highlights...

In November 1941, the Mufti met with Hitler, who told him the Jews were his foremost enemy. The Nazi dictator rebuffed the Mufti's requests for a declaration in support of the Arabs, however, telling him the time was not right. The Mufti offered Hitler his “thanks for the sympathy which he had always shown for the Arab and especially Palestinian cause, and to which he had given clear expression in his public speeches....The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely....the Jews....” Hitler replied:

Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine....Germany would furnish positive and practical aid to the Arabs involved in the same struggle....Germany's objective [is]...solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere....In that hour the Mufti would be the most authoritative spokesman for the Arab world. The Mufti thanked Hitler profusely.2

In 1945, Yugoslavia sought to indict the Mufti as a war criminal for his role in recruiting 20,000 Muslim volunteers for the SS, who participated in the killing of Jews in Croatia and Hungary. He escaped from French detention in 1946, however, and continued his fight against the Jews from Cairo and later Beirut. He died in 1974.

Isn't this fun, we're learning now, aren't we? Your pitiful attempt to assasinate the character of Zionism by associating it with Hitler is, well... outlandish, when the Arab-Nazi relationship is so well documented.

source:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html
(The speech is also available in complete form in The Arab Israeli Reader, second edition, 1970)

 

[Undecided]

Spidergoat don't play games eh, I have a weapon much greater the some association.

 

[spidergoat]

1) "modern" eastern euro jews have NO genealogical/anthropological connection with the ancient assyrian/canaanites jews ok??

From the standpoint of modern politics this doesn't mean shit, so stop beating a dead horse. Jews are Jews, wherever they come from. The relationship between Jews and Israel is mental, not physical, ok?

You obviously want to argue about direct decent as it relates to modern property rights, and we can't do this without getting tediously buried in obscure DNA science. I don't think it's relevent at all.

If Jews have a right to Israel at all, that means any Jew- Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiian,

NO NO NO!!!!!!

Yes, yes, yes!

Your turn.

 

[Undecided]

From the standpoint of modern politics this doesn't mean shit, so stop beating a dead horse. Jews are Jews, wherever they come from. The relationship between Jews and Israel is mental, not physical, ok?

But you being an atheist cannot be Jewish, as you just admitted being Jewish is not a physical (being genetic) connection to each other. But rather a mental one, one that is connected to religion. I know you will say that it’s the “Jewish culture” but we already went through this, culture on its own means nothing, culture is merely an effect not a cause. What is the cause of Jewish culture? Judaism of course, not being Jewish would mean that you are a goy like me or oh, 5.966 billion others on Earth. If you have a claim to Israel, so do I.

 

[spidergoat]

My point is that I don't agree with the Zionist notion that ancient Jewish history gives Jews any special rights to Israel. The historical connection, in my opinion, served only as inspiriation to settle in Israel as opposed to, say, Brazil. Their rights stem from the human right to govern themselves, which they desired very much, having been historically persecuted, and recently so in the extreme by the Nazis.

...and more recently by the Nazi-alligned Arabs. Understand?

The right of Jews to live in Israel, not claim it as their own, came from the British mandate:

Article 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative, and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

But, since the Arabs couldn't deal with this, they had a big fight. The war is what gave Jews the right to claim Israel as their own. If only for aligning with Hitler, the Palestinian Arabs should rightly have lost all claim to govern their land, like Japan after American occupation.

My Jewishness is the result of religion, not my own, but that of my parents and relatives who influenced me. The litmus test is this: would I be persecuted for being Jewish? Anyone who Hitler would have sent to death as a Jew qualifies to seek asylum in the "Jewish national home". Do you think the Nazis stopped to ask what your personal beliefs were?

 

[Undecided]

The right of Jews to live in Israel, not claim it as their own, came from the British mandate:

Which was rescinded, you do know that?

Do you think the Nazis stopped to ask what your personal beliefs were?

No you know why? Because like Zionists, Nazi’s believe that being Jewish was racial not religious.

My Jewishness is the result of religion, not my own, but that of my parents and relatives who influenced me.

But you are still not Jewish, if we were to use your logic, I could go live with a Jewish family and get a bit of their Jewishness rubbed off on me, I’m I Jewish as a result? No, so that is a Red Herring.

 

[otheadp]

nico you have always amused me the way you memorize big words and expressions yet you use them all wrong

it really shows

can you just speak English and say what you mean? simplicity is the sign of genius.