Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[otheadp]

Okay, so if I have you correctly, it is the concessions made by Rabin, and not the actions of subsequent Israeli governments which motivate the Palestinian movement?
if you follow the timeline you can see that the more generous the offered and implemented concessions became, the more violent the "Palestinian movement" (what a romantic sanitized name you've chosen here) became.
i'll give you one example of how concessions brought violence. the rest you'll have to check out by yourself.
when the Israeli civil administration in Yesha have passed that duty to the PA, the PA have imported bran new textbooks for their schools, preaching unbelievable hatered and inciting incredible [fake] nationalistic aspirations. the plan for the Big Strugle was planned years in advance before Sharon went to the Temple Mount. have you seen the video i posted?
are you scared of "being affiliated with zionist organizations" by watching this? (as someone from this form has said when i asked him to read something from the Jerusalem Post) i hope you're better than that.

A man with a conscience is a goddamn hypocrite?
these are not mutually exclusive.
i am glad he has a conscience, but i am upset that he would rather sacrifice Jewish lives than see the attackers, their affiliates, and those who want our destruction, being homeless. we pay for our absolute conscience in blood, my friend. in war both sides kill and do immoral acts (whatever "moral" means).
it is impossible to claim higher moral ground and win. we've been trying to do that for 3.5 years and so far it hasn't worked. i'm getting more and more right-wing as time passes. destroying a few houses is nothing compared to what i'd like to do if the conflict lasts a few more years.

If one of President Bush's cabinet members were to invoke our darkest hour as a nation and place us squarely on the other side of that moral line, we can certainly expect that many Americans would rush to the aid of their president and call decent the indecent, sanctify the profane, and justify that which is without excuse.
it is indecent, and it is profane, but it is justifiable, and has perfect "excuse". excuse is a poor word. more like "moral reasoning".
would you like me to spell that out for you again?

someone who, like you, abhors human suffering, but unlike you, sees all people--and not just some--as human.
terrorists, real terrorists, lose their status as humans. just as convicted killers and pedophiles go to jail and some are executed.

so I think you should stop painting the detail with a spray can.
who is doing the painting here?
i refuse to call terrorists humans and to treat them as i treat non-terrorists.
you spray over the facts that they have killed. but it's not just the fact that they killed - it's the fact that their methods of operation and goals go beyond anything that would justify any political aspiration.

Why don't you explain for us how leaving thousands of Palestinians homeless will save Jewish lives, and then, perhaps you can explain the necessity of committing crimes against the human rights

even if they have all the historical facts straight, and even if they have morality on their side - it is imperative to save lives - Jewish or not - and that is why Operation Rainbow had to happen. i think they pulled out too soon because of CNN and "human rights" groups (see my post above about that).
if you think about reality and facts on the ground here instead of indulging in brotherly love fantasies, you might just consider the possibility that by conducting this operation the IDF (i hope so) prevented the importation of the most lethal long-range ground-to-air and ground-to-ground weapons yet in Hamas's arsenal. weapons that no doubt would have been used, and no doubt would have got a retaliation in the scale of Operation Defensive Shield. this potential big operation would've left many more 'palestinian' dead, and many more houses demolished.

so in fact, Operation Rainbow has saved Jewish and yes, 'palestinian' lives.
Arafat and his buddies don't care. he wears a military uniform but he sends the brainwashed children to die. he loves retaliations by the IDF... he craves for them... needs them.. to survive politically and to promote his genocidal plan.
he could've prevented Operation Rainbow very easily... but he incited his trusting followers for murder, and Operation Rainbow is what they got in return.
the innocent always get caught in the middle. who is more responsible... those who thrusted them into that position, who hide behind them, or those are trying to protect their own through reaction?
not reacting would be immoral. not defending your citizenry's lives would be incompetent. not bringing the murderers to justice would be irresponsible and will cost more lives and destruction in the longer run.

Yeah, it's the women and children who are "they." It's the displaced, not-yet fighters ...
it is the terrorists who hijack these women and children who are "they".

Your exclusion of Palestinians from humanity is most disturbing.
your continuous absurd claim to this is most amusing


I do understand that you're downright bloodthirsty.
i am not John Lennon

I do understand that you are a poor ethical and moral representation of the Jews.
i am no representative, and you are not qualified to judge me buddy

I do understand that you are an acute representation of Israeli racism.
see point above

I do understand that you exclude the Palestinians from humanity.
i believe i've covered this one already

I do understand that I find your arguments repugnant in the face of humanity.
it's humanity vs. otheadp! does that mean you exclude little ol' me from humanity? *gasp*... what would John Lennon say?

I do understand that you invest your identity in politics and not humanity.
in both. but mostly in reality and justice. you on the other hand place it all on humanity. only your exclusion of Jews (ok, fine, Israelis) from humanity is disturbing. it is ok for terrorists to strike Israeli population centers but it is not ok for IDF to strike terrorist nests - yes, unfortunately at the heart of the 'palestinian' population centers.

And I do understand that you wish to fallaciously include all Jews in the argument.
of course. even Neturei Karta. but it really is irrelevant.
you're just upset at me posting articles, images, and videos, from popular media in the arab world that specifically say "Jews"... not "Zionists". you know, i'm just the messenger... i don't make this stuff up.
earth to tiassa: come back to reality. take the arabs and 'palestinians' off the pedistal. they are not better than the rest of us. their shit does stink, too. they are responsible for their actions and their consequences. if they aren't, then they should, just like the rest of us.

I have more respect for Jewish life than you tend to show.
uhmm... yeah..

 

[Tiassa]

Zionist Vampire Fanatics

are you scared of "being affiliated with zionist organizations" by watching this?

Nope. I admit I don't know how I missed it the first time. I'm absolutely salivating at the thought of getting objective information from a proclaimed Zionist organization.

i am glad he has a conscience, but i am upset that he would rather sacrifice Jewish lives than see the attackers, their affiliates, and those who want our destruction, being homeless. we pay for our absolute conscience in blood, my friend.

You will continue to reap what you sew.

Such is the problem with your religious and nationalist fanaticism.

Fanaticism? you might ask.

• .... terrorists, real terrorists, lose their status as humans. just as convicted killers and pedophiles go to jail and some are executed.

• i refuse to call terrorists humans and to treat them as i treat non-terrorists.

I am a terrorist.
(AFP/BBC)

We are terrorists.
(Panos/BBC)

I am a terrorist.
(Electronic Intifada)
​

These are the faces, Otheadp. These people, you say, are not human. You are upset because a cabinet member would prefer to not see these people, so "obviously dangerous" to Israel, homeless. These are the events, Otheadp, that make the people suffering wish for the destruction of their tormentors.

Fanaticism? you might ask. Yes, your religious and nationalist fanaticism has led you to start disqualifying people from the human species.

They're humans! "Jewish" and "Palestinian" are identity politics as stupid as any other, be it national or ethnic or religious.

Look at them, Otheadp. Look at the faces of the people you say aren't human!

You group them together with "terrorists" so that you don't have to think of them as human. So you can think of them as being somehow worth less than Jewish lives.

And you're upset because a guy who lived through the Holocaust and maybe--just maybe--has seen such horrors before doesn't share your lust for inflicting undue suffering on people?

you spray over the facts that they have killed

Ri-ight. Take a look at those smarmy, terrorist mugs up there.

I'd call it tunnel-vision, but it's more like scope-vision. I've got it! Instead of making the Muslims sew badges on their clothes, you could just make them draw crosshairs on their foreheads to make it easier for the IDF.

if you think about reality and facts on the ground here instead of indulging in brotherly love fantasies, you might just consider the possibility that by conducting this operation the IDF (i hope so) prevented the importation of the most lethal long-range ground-to-air and ground-to-ground weapons yet in Hamas's arsenal.

If you think about the reality and the facts on the ground instead of indulging in your own silly hopes or hatred of Arafat, you might have noticed that no amount of genocidal rage on Israel's part has yet tamed the Palestinian beast so greatly fears and also needs.

Look at those faces up there. The young ones--the ones who aren't terrorists except that you need them to be.

Knock down their homes again, and they'll more than likely oblige you.

so in fact, Operation Rainbow has saved Jewish and yes, 'palestinian' lives.

So, in fact, Israeli nationalists claim that Operation Rainbow has saved both Jewish and Palestinian lives. I ... I couldn't have guessed that was coming.

it is the terrorists who hijack these women and children who are "they".

A dreidl joke would be too easy here. How about Wheel of Fortune? Step right up and spin the wheel again, because that was a nice spin.

By your argument, it would seem that 9/11 was justified. I disagree with that notion. But terrorists in the White House and Congress have hijacked the American people, and the people paid for it. And now you're sitting here telling me that it's fair? Or, at least, analogously so?

your continuous absurd claim to this is most amusing

Absurd how? Dude, you come right out and say it!

Your denial is actually kind of worrisome. See, back in the days before 9/11, anti-Semitism in the U.S. was a bizarre latent thing, and much effort was spent convincing a generation of youth (e.g. Generation X) that no, Jews aren't actually people who think and advocate as you do. My, how things have changed.

However, I don't necessarily make the firm connection that Judaism is somehow responsible for your idiocy. No, my friend--such blatant denial and split-tongued rhetoric, such a cloven-hooved march to war--sometimes a person's idiocy transcends their identity politic. Such is the case of your latest performance.

 

[crazy151drinker]

Hey T,

Why didnt you post the picture of the 16 year old kid with the Bomb Vest?
Why dont you post some pictures of some bombed isreali buses.

"Ri-ight. Take a look at those smarmy, terrorist mugs up there."
If you like I could post some pics of some Isreali children or American kids. How about some kids who lost therir parents in 9-11?

No matter how much you try, there is no way you can justify palastinan suicide bombers blowing up busloads of civilians.

 

[Kunax]

hehe like water on a goose, thise thread is mildly funny

 

[Tiassa]

Why didnt you post the picture of the 16 year old kid with the Bomb Vest?
Why dont you post some pictures of some bombed isreali buses.

You seem to miss the point. Otheadp includes those folks in the pictures with the kid in the bomb vest with the people who send that kid out.

As Otheadp posted above:

• . . . but i am upset that he would rather sacrifice Jewish lives than see the attackers, their affiliates, and those who want our destruction, being homeless.

• terrorists, real terrorists, lose their status as humans

• i refuse to call terrorists humans and to treat them as i treat non-terrorists

To be honest, I'm actually waiting for Otheadp to explain why he keeps deflecting the issue from the innocent to the guilty. He appears to be including the innocent with the guilty. Of course, he insists that Israel is about all Jews, too, so perhaps it's fair inasmuch as we might disregard the utility or logic of such beliefs.

Please understand, Crazy151drinker, I'm one of those who attempts to refuse all violence, but if I apply Otheadp's apparent logic, 9/11 suddenly becomes justified. That's the problem when you give license to take it out on the innocent.

Or, we could limit ourselves to say that Israel--and therefore, per Otheadp's apparent logic, Jews in general--somehow claims a right that others are refused by convention, but that would only highlight the racism and nationalism of his position. And then we have to make another adjustment to account for Otheadp's exclusion of those Jews who disagree with them; the response to Lapin's remarks is one of the most coherent rebukes of a Jew who disagrees with him that he's put up. Which may or may not imply something about the severity of considerations invoked by such a man as Lapin speaking out in such a manner, although that consideration has already been denounced as an appeal to emotion, or some-such.

I just don't understand why folks wish to put so much effort into ignoring the toll on the innocent. Otheadp's route from A to B to Death is, actually, what many of my generation were taught to not believe about Jews; his attitude and expressed beliefs are the stuff Neo-Nazi wet dreams are made of. It's almost as if he's actually an anti-Semite acting as an agent provocateur, but I've found that so complex a ruse is actually quite rare around Sciforums--if it has ever occurred at all--and further investigation and discussion consistently shows the seeming provocative points to be merely ill-conceived.

But the point is that people other than the bombers and their masters are being hurt. Why do you, Crazy151drinker, choose to disregard that point?

Such as the rest of your post:

If you like I could post some pics of some Isreali children or American kids. How about some kids who lost therir parents in 9-11?

Fine with me. In fact, I don't actually see your point in asking me that question. I'm the one who thinks it's all horsesh@t. It's Otheadp's logic I'm questioning with those mugs up there. Because by his apparent logic, those kids who lost their parents on 9/11 are terrorists.

No matter how much you try, there is no way you can justify palastinan suicide bombers blowing up busloads of civilians.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Where does justification of the Palestinian suicide bombers enter the discussion? Aside from the windmill you're tilting?

 

[Tiassa]

Otheadp

I thought a couple of your other points needed some address:

i am no representative, and you are not qualified to judge me buddy

I agree with the first and the second is irrelevant. If you don't like the assessment, please consider the data you put out: you're a bloodthirsty, racist, nationalist, religious fanatic.

see point above

Backatcha.

i believe i've covered this one already

Yes. By running from the issue and justifying terrorism.

it's humanity vs. otheadp! does that mean you exclude little ol' me from humanity

Nope. That battle would be your own choice.

*gasp*... what would John Lennon say?

That's a matter of record. "Serve Yourself"

only your exclusion of Jews (ok, fine, Israelis) from humanity is disturbing

I would ask you to demonstrate my exclusion of Jews from humanity. Because I'm damn sure you can't do it. On the other hand, I have documented in this thread the device of your exclusion of Palestinians from humanity. And remember, you are the one who wants this to be about all Jews. Which brings us to your next absurdity:

you're just upset at me posting articles, images, and videos, from popular media in the arab world that specifically say "Jews"... not "Zionists". you know, i'm just the messenger... i don't make this stuff up.

Did you forget that I asked you if it was about all the Jews, and you said yes it was?

I've reminded you of that once already. Please either renounce that statement and stop saying "We" when you're not part of the collective at question, or else quit making excuses for yourself.

earth to tiassa: come back to reality. take the arabs and 'palestinians' off the pedistal. they are not better than the rest of us. their shit does stink, too. they are responsible for their actions and their consequences. if they aren't, then they should, just like the rest of us.

Right. A five year-old child is responsible for the actions of a sixteen year-old under the sway of an adult cleric with murder on his mind?

I'll borrow a phrase: Come back to reality.

Your ugly fanaticism does not compensate for the lack of any proper foundation upon which to build your presumption of moral supremacy.

I mean, look at you. You won't even respond to Lapin's comments on the level of Lapin's comments. Lapin spoke of innocent people suffering. You expressed your disappointment that he didn't hold them all guilty:

• i am glad he has a conscience, but i am upset that he would rather sacrifice Jewish lives than see the attackers, their affiliates, and those who want our destruction, being homeless.

At no point have you established that he would sacrifice "Jewish lives" in order to protect the homes of criminal attackers.

That's your own issue to explain. Come back to reality and deal with it, Otheadp. You're starting to show your anti-Semitic stripes.

 

[otheadp]

tiassa,
you know, it's amazing. you just completely ignored what i wrote.
are you blind or did you do that on purpose?
i'm just going to quote you some stuff from my previous post

it is indecent, and it is profane, but it is justifiable, and has perfect "excuse". excuse is a poor word. more like "moral reasoning".
...
terrorists, real terrorists, lose their status as humans. just as convicted killers and pedophiles go to jail and some are executed.

you asked me to explain how this operation was moral and how it would save lives, i did:

not reacting would be immoral. not defending your citizenry's lives would be incompetent. not bringing the murderers to justice would be irresponsible and will cost more lives and destruction in the longer run.
...
by conducting this operation the IDF (i hope so) prevented the importation of the most lethal long-range ground-to-air and ground-to-ground weapons yet in Hamas's arsenal. weapons that no doubt would have been used, and no doubt would have got a retaliation in the scale of Operation Defensive Shield. this potential big operation would've left many more 'palestinian' dead, and many more houses demolished.

so in fact, Operation Rainbow has saved Jewish and yes, 'palestinian' lives.

then you seem to approve this: (tell me i'm wrong! go ahead!)

it is ok for terrorists to strike Israeli population centers but it is not ok for IDF to strike terrorist nests - yes, unfortunately at the heart of the 'palestinian' population centers.

It's Otheadp's logic I'm questioning with those mugs up there.

the innocent always get caught in the middle. who is more responsible... those who thrusted them into that position, who hide behind them, or those are trying to protect their own through reaction?

i guess you ignored the part where i wrote "innocent" (which goes against your ridiculous assertion that i put those kids and mothers and not-yet bombers in the same group as terrorists)

you're starting to run in circles like another member of the forums which i won't name..
your arguments aren't really arguments. they're emotional and irrational and keep ignoring one fundamental fact: Israel has to protect its citizens!

please provide me with an alternative to Operation Rainbow - go ahead, try!
give me some quick answers - what is the action that the Israeli government should take at this moment when terrorists are actively trying as we speak to infiltrate into Israel and explode busses?
eagerly waiting for your recommendations!

I would ask you to demonstrate my exclusion of Jews from humanity. Because I'm damn sure you can't do it.

Her death could've been prevented
[source]​

His too
[source]​

If only the terrorists were disarmed in time these brother and sister would still be alive
[source]​

You will continue to reap what you sew.

gosh, does "you" mean otheadp? or IDF and Israeli citizens and children and mothers and not-yet arab-haters? does that include those kids in the pics above?

should Israeli kids like them not be protected? do they not deserve to be protected? (and remember - there is no such thing as acceptable level of suicide bombings)

i hope you're not wishing for all Israeli kids the same fate as of those mugs above
you know, it's slowly showing that you actually do

 

[otheadp]

I'm absolutely salivating at the thought of getting objective information from a proclaimed Zionist organization.

they don't have to invent anything or give a skewed opinion or analysis of the situation.
all they do is show Arafat's statements
do you think ZOA brainwashed Arafat into saying what he's saying?

man, you are one paranoid hippy (they say weed makes people paranoid)

 

[Tiassa]

Her death could've been prevented
His too
If only the terrorists were disarmed in time these brother and sister would still be alive

What a pathetic straw-man argument, Otheadp.

This is your response to my request that you demonstrate my exclusion of the Jews from humanity?

In the end, your response only highlights your own hatred:

• Lapin, a holocaust survivor, laments the victimization of innocent persons among the Palestinians.
• Otheadp interprets that as somehow preferring to "sacrifice Jewish lives" in order to prevent the homelessness of terrorists. This connection has never been supported in the discussion. In fact, it is the near the crux of Otheadp's denial.
• Tiassa shows pictures of innocent people, such as those Lapin laments the suffering and victimizaiton of, and Otheadp takes that to mean Jews are not part of humanity?

How does that last one work?

You, Otheadp, are the one who excludes the Palestinians from humanity. You are the one who makes this about all Jews. You are the one who insists the discussion be as messy as possible.

you asked me to explain how this operation was moral and how it would save lives, i did:

And not very well. You discussed morality and patriotism, and failed to explain how victimizing the innocent in order to punish the guilty saves Israeli lives.

then you seem to approve this: (tell me i'm wrong! go ahead!)

How do I seem to approve of it?

I'm talking about victimizing innocent people whom you refuse to acknowledge in this discussion. What the hell is your problem, Otheadp?

As to your logic that I'm questioning, Otheadp, that is explained above. I question any logic that justifies terrorism, such as yours does.

i guess you ignored the part where i wrote "innocent" (which goes against your ridiculous assertion that i put those kids and mothers and not-yet bombers in the same group as terrorists)

No, it doesn't. Because you seem to think those innocent folks are not human, either. Lapin lamented the innocent, you responded by pointing at the guilty. Where are you really accounting for the innocent except to further your complaints?

you're starting to run in circles like another member of the forums which i won't name..
your arguments aren't really arguments. they're emotional and irrational and keep ignoring one fundamental fact: Israel has to protect its citizens!

Hardly. If I seem to be going in circles, it's because that's all you want in this discussion. Apparently if I don't dehumanize the Palestinians and accept the victimization of innocent people as a right of all Jews everywhere, I'm denying Israel its right to protect its citizens.

You're a religious, nationalist, hateful fanatic.

You have yet to explain how victimizing innocent people protects Israeli citizens.

please provide me with an alternative to Operation Rainbow - go ahead, try!
give me some quick answers - what is the action that the Israeli government should take at this moment when terrorists are actively trying as we speak to infiltrate into Israel and explode busses?
eagerly waiting for your recommendations!

That's your problem: you're lazy. What makes you think anything about this situation has a quick solution?

gosh, does "you" mean otheadp? or IDF and Israeli citizens and children and mothers and not-yet arab-haters? does that include those kids in the pics above?

It's a general statement of life. As long as you, Israel, or anyone else is upset at the idea that victimizing the innocent is a bad thing, Israel will continue to face a violent backlash.

Beyond that, what part of "Such is the problem with your religious and nationalist fanaticism," is unclear?

Thankfully for the Israelis and the Jews alike, I don't extrapolate your hatred and assign it to the rest of them.

i hope you're not wishing for all Israeli kids the same fate as of those mugs above
you know, it's slowly showing that you actually do

Nope. But I do recognize the result of holding that all is fair in love and war.

If you sew appleseeds, don't get pissed off at the trees if they don't grow oranges.

I mean, I don't even see how you come to the above point; it's straight out of left field.

What this is about, Otheadp, is your refusal to acknowledge the wrongness of victimizing innocent people if those innocent people are Palestinian.

What this is about is your advocacy of terrorism.

What this is about is the depths of your religious and nationalist fanaticism.

We, who are not Jewish or Israeli, can only go by what we see. And it's a bit easier to assess murderous thugs who claim to be fighting a holy cause for what they are than it is to assess murderous thugs who claim that victimizing innocent people saves lives.

Otheadp, you need to learn the art of reading, writing, and presentation. I would say it's slowly showing that you lack such a faculty, but there's nothing slow about it.

Let's start with a simple question:

• Is it wrong to hurt innocent people, or is it just wrong to hurt Jews?

Clear up exactly how you feel about that one, Otheadp, and we'll work from there.

 

[otheadp]

It's "Lapid", not "Lapin"

What a pathetic straw-man argument, Otheadp.
oh it is no strawman buddy. these dead kids are the whole reason why the IDF is in the Yesha you idiot
and even if it is a strawman, how is it different from yours?

(otheadp: )i guess you ignored the part where i wrote "innocent"
---
(tiassa: )Because you seem to think those innocent folks are not human


You have yet to explain how victimizing innocent people protects Israeli citizens.
i've explained it, reworded it, and then quoted myself.
i don't think you don't get it... i think you do because you're a smart guy. you just refuse to accept it because in your opinion 'palestinian' innocent people are worth more than Jewish innocent people
IDF is not out to get those innocent 'palestinians'.

(otheadp: )please provide me with an alternative to Operation Rainbow - go ahead, try!
give me some quick answers - what is the action that the Israeli government should take at this moment when terrorists are actively trying as we speak to infiltrate into Israel and explode busses?
eagerly waiting for your recommendations!
----
(tiassa: ) That's your problem: you're lazy. What makes you think anything about this situation has a quick solution?

is this the best that Israeli children and their families deserve? tiassa says YES... with a sarcastic smiley no less... *sigh*
there are people that will try to kill Israeli kids tonite. the solution is pretty simple... go after them and stop them!
what would you do if Emma was in imminent danger?

You will continue to reap what you sew.
those kids will reap what they sew?
man you are disgusting

It's a general statement of life.
bullshit. why don't you admit that you get a hardon when you get to say that to a Israeli
... if it is a general statement of life, it should also apply to the 'palestinians' (that is if you took them off the pedestal)

As long as you, Israel, or anyone else is upset at the idea that victimizing the innocent is a bad thing, Israel will continue to face a violent backlash.
but not the 'palestinians'! G-d forbid! they're high up there on that golden pedistal! their shit don't stink so they can just go right ahead and keep killing Jewish kids with impunity and not expect someone to go after them!
because as long as bloody hypocrites like you say Jewish kids don't deserve protection they have a green signal.

I do recognize the result of holding that all is fair in love and war.
but in your opinion this fact of life only applies to 'palestinians'. Israelis are held to a completely different standard by your highness

And it's a bit easier to assess ...
assess?! how long did it take you to think that word up? that ugly euphamism for "understand" and "accept"?
your colours are showing buddy. watch out now heina, before you go and say it right out: "killing Israeli kids is ok"

 

[otheadp]

btw, Shalhevet Pass (the girl on the 1st pic i posted) sort of looks like Emma

 

[otheadp]

tiassa, tiassa...
all i had to say was "what if it was your daughter"...
well, that was easy

 

[otheadp]

'Palestinian' terrorists using UN ambulances for cover? Never!

http://www.un.org/unrwa/news/releases/pr-2004/hqg15-04.pdf

Peter Hansen, Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) has today demanded an apology and retraction from the Israeli Government and Military for the damaging and baseless allegations they have made against UNRWA’s ambulance drivers in the Gaza Strip.

On 14 May 2004, Shaul Mofaz, the Israeli Minister of Defence alleged that a UN ambulance had transported body parts of Israeli soldiers. In a letter dated 16 May (but only faxed to UNRWA on 24 May), Major General Yossef Mishlev, Israel’s Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), claimed that a video tape showed Palestinian use on 11 May “ …of ambulances belonging to UNRWA, apparently for the purpose of transporting body parts ….”

In letters to the Israeli Minister of Defence and to General Mishlev, Mr Hansen states that despite repeated requests from UNRWA, no evidence of UNRWA ambulance drivers transporting the body parts of Israeli soldiers has been presented by the Government of Israel. Accordingly, he has no reason to believe that there is any truth at all to the extremely unfortunate accusation being made against UNRWA.

Major General Mishlev’s letter also claimed that UNRWA had been “concealing” the video tape of an UNRWA ambulance in Zeitun in Gaza City from 11 May. In fact UNRWA only received a copy of the video tape footage on 24 May, after having receiving General Mishlev’s letter.

Moreover, the video tape shows absolutely no evidence of the transportation of soldiers’ body parts and in no way undermines the statement issued by UNRWA on 13 May requesting that the neutrality of its ambulance be respected. The statement was released in response to an incident in which an ambulance driver’s life was threatened by armed men who demanded that he transport them, along with their wounded comrade, to hospital. UNRWA forbids the transportation of armed fighters in its vehicles, but does not demand that its unarmed staff put their lives at risk.

Mr Hansen writes in his letter to General Mishlev: “You have urged me “to do all that can be done to publicize the truth regarding this sad episode”. I cannot help but note that UNRWA made a public announcement of the truth of the matter in its press release of 13 May 2004, before various Israeli authorities began making their false allegations. UNRWA’s press release did not contain a discussion of UNRWA ambulances transporting body parts of Israeli soldiers because there was no evidence that such an event had occurred. In contrast, by making the baseless charge regarding body parts, your letter and the reported comments of the Minister of Defence have shown no such concern for evidentiary support. I urge you, the Minister of Defence and all others who have repeated this unsupported canard regarding body parts, to issue an immediate retraction and apology for making such a wholly unsupported accusation.”

here is the video in question.

you don't see any body parts being transported but you see gunmen board a UN ambulance and the ambulance drive away.

the UN statement says that there is no proof of body parts being transported.
what proof do you need? does Israel have to provide a video of every single claim it makes? what evidence would be satisfactory?

the statement further says that the UN driver was "threatened" by these gunmen and that he is "not required to put his life in danger"
so that's supposed to explain why the driver let the gunmen in with their alleged injured "comrade" in and drove away

but 2 questions come to mind:
1) how often does this (forced or planned) collaboration between gunmen and UN ambulances takes place? and
2) how far does it go?

if this misuse of UN ambulances is rampant, which the IDF has every reason (and now proof) to believe, UN ambulances should not be immune from scrutiny and searches.

in fact, Red Crescent ('palestinian') ambulances have been used in the past (and this is well documented. all the proof you need can be easily found on google with pictures and names and places and everything) to transport terrorists, gunmen, weapons, explosive belts (which were later successfully used on evil bus-riders), etc.

in fact, the terrorists quickly caught the idea that ambulances are supposed to be protected under some strange laws that the West invented and seems to follow, and will not be scrutinized, and therefore they build fake ambulances and use them as "taxi service" for terrorists (link, link), corrupt "government" officials or anyone who wants to evade searches at checkpoints (link).

google: link

blowing up or even searching an ambulance would not look too good in the eye of a bleeding heart liberal, would it? when you have CNN working on the case, the ambulance scheme is flawless.

innocent 'palestinian' civilians misuse ambulances... and it's very clear why. i'd probalby do as them if i were in their shoes. but terrorists use these ambulances too, which is why the ambulances should be searched.

anyways, next time you read about the IDF searching 'palestinian' ambulances (or maybe even UN ambulances), don't be whining.
ambulances being delayed at road blocks should definitely make you upset, as they make me upset, but the blame should fall on those who hijacked these Protected objects under the 4th Geneva Convention, thereby ruining it for those who really need ambulance service.

i'll finish this with a quote:

protected persons may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations. (Article 28, 4th Geneva Convention)

the parties to the conflict may take such measures of control and security in regard to protected persons as may be necessary as a result of the war. (Article 27, 4th Geneva Convention)

 

[Tiassa]

I think that's a positive development in your outlook. Admittedly, I think it's a day late and a dollar short, but hey, you couldn't possibly be pulling the Geneva Conventions out of your pocket just because you can, for once, complain about Palestinians according to them. Right?

After all, that accords the Palestinians more respect than you've shown them for a while.

In the meantime, your topic post appears to be right on target with Israeli issues. Since Israel believes that the world hates it, and since being directly dishonest hasn't helped their cause, they're trying indirect honesty. Talking about the gunmen is most likely the end desire for Israel, so you should be proud to play the part.

But, to take a note from your arguments over time, neither one of us has driven a UN ambulance so ....

In the meantime, the ambulances are something of an issue. Can anyone show that the "collaboration" extends beyond the scene of the battle? Because I'm wondering what an ambulance crew is expected to do under those circumstances. Maybe we should arm them? (Yes, that last is at least a little sarcastic.)

 

[Colmar]

IMRA - Sunday, May 23, 2004 Official IDF Source Confirms: Have Photos of Palestinians Killing 2 Palestinian Children

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=20934

Then they try to blame Victim Innocent Israel???
http://www.inhonor.net

 

[Colmar]

They use so criminally their own kids as cover too

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/HumanShields">Human Shields</a>

The Arab-'palestinians' are No "victims"!

 

[otheadp]

I think that's a positive development in your outlook
tiassa, i haven't changed my opinions or outlooks, just stated the obvious
i thought it went without saying but i was being called names so i thought a clarification was needed

Can anyone show that the "collaboration" extends beyond the scene of the battle?
what would qualify as proof?
the IDF should assume that there is, considering the nature of the UN and that video.
it would be irresponsible not to.
collaboration or not, it isn't even relevant. thing is, those UN ambulances keep getting hijacked (let's give the UN the benefit of the doubt here for a second) and the UN ambulances give a better cover and make it harder for the IDF troops to search for explosive belts and AK's
those UN ambulances have no place in Yesha.

I'm wondering what an ambulance crew is expected to do under those circumstances
there's nothing much they can do.
i provided links in the 1st post to where the drivers (from the Red Crescent) themselves were the terrorists so they should be searched as well and not get special privilages - they abused the protected status of the Ambulance, and now for bus-explosion-prevention reasons those ambulances should all lose their special status when traveling from checkpoint to checkpoing.

as for the innocent drivers from the Red Crescent or the UN, they can't do much... even with a gun. they won't shoot at 5 Hamas members armed with AK-47's.

and the UN ambulance has no business to be in Yesha anyway

==============
why hasn't anyone else responded to this thread? accepting the operational reality of checkpoints and searching ambulances upsets you people?
G-d forbid the Israelis will do something successful to protect their children huh?

 

[otheadp]

I think that's a positive development in your outlook
tiassa, i haven't changed my opinions or outlooks, just stated the obvious
i thought it went without saying but i was being called names so i thought a clarification was needed

Can anyone show that the "collaboration" extends beyond the scene of the battle?
what would qualify as proof?
the IDF should assume that there is, considering the nature of the UN and that video.
it would be irresponsible not to.
collaboration or not, it isn't even relevant. thing is, those UN ambulances keep getting hijacked (let's give the UN the benefit of the doubt here for a second) and the UN ambulances give a better cover and make it harder for the IDF troops to search for explosive belts and AK's
those UN ambulances have no place in Yesha.

I'm wondering what an ambulance crew is expected to do under those circumstances
there's nothing much they can do.
i provided links in the 1st post to where the drivers (from the Red Crescent) themselves were the terrorists so they should be searched as well and not get special privilages - they abused the protected status of the Ambulance, and now for bus-explosion-prevention reasons those ambulances should all lose their special status when traveling from checkpoint to checkpoing.

as for the innocent drivers from the Red Crescent or the UN, they can't do much... even with a gun. they won't shoot at 5 Hamas members armed with AK-47's.

and the UN ambulance has no business to be in Yesha anyway

==============
why hasn't anyone else responded to this thread? accepting the operational reality of checkpoints and searching ambulances upsets you people?
G-d forbid the Israelis will do something successful to protect their children huh?

 

[Kiwi123]

How palestinian Butchers 'recruit'...

Worth mentioning the real events pre that massacre of families at the Arab-Israeli restaurant in Hefia... via the woman that was caught having an affair and was given a choice... either die as a "martyr"-MURDERER, or as an unfaithful wife... so she sat down "nicely" and ate her ugly body up... [Did somebody say the word "desperate"?] then she went slowly and deliberately to the "perfect" spot where most toddlers were...and BOOM BLOODY Alaakbar!

 

[alain]

wheres your source on this, a claim is useless unless it can be backed up
who said it?