Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

[Preacher_X]

A peice of Zionist Propaganda Explained:

I witnessed the Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian territories. In wording, it is a difference between two prepositions, in and from. For example, the Jews say, "We have pulled out from Area A." or, "We have pulled out in Area A." These two prepositions make a lot of difference. When you pull out from an area, it means you are no longer there, but when you pull out in an area, it merely means repositioning tanks and troops. This is what the Israelis do. They merely change the position of their troops and tanks a few inches so it will be so easy for them to drive themselves right back and so they can claim they withdrew their forces.

 

[Preacher_X]

How exactly does the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan have anything to do with making a bucketload of cash?

And if Western domination of the Middle East is to blame for the region's current problems, does that mean the Inquistion should be blamed on the Moorish occupation of Spain?

natural resources such as oil and gas. its stratageic location. also for the spread of the communist domino theory, all contributing to Afghanistans occupation byu soviet forces.

 

[Preacher_X]

thanks for the replies guys. othedheap, fuck off you zionist bastard, no one likes Israel except for a few million jews.

anyway, more zionist propaganda:

ANOTHER ZIONIST PROPAGANDA REVEALED:

I witnessed the Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian territories. In wording, it is a difference between two prepositions, in and from. For example, the Jews say, "We have pulled out from Area A." or, "We have pulled out in Area A." These two prepositions make a lot of difference. When you pull out from an area, it means you are no longer there, but when you pull out in an area, it merely means repositioning tanks and troops. This is what the Israelis do. They merely change the position of their troops and tanks a few inches so it will be so easy for them to drive themselves right back and so they can claim they withdrew their forces.

 

[Tiassa]

Smoked . . . .

Godwin's Law?
Sharon cabinet minister - Gaza images remind of Holocaust

On TV I saw an old woman rummaging through the ruins of her house looking for her medication, and it reminded me of my grandmother who was thrown out of her house during the Shoah . . . We look like monsters in the eyes of the world . . . This makes me sick. (Deputy Prime Minister Yosef Lapid)

Source: Washington Post

Harsh criticism of the latest Israeli incursions into Gaza call down notions of the Holocaust. Strangely, almost breathtakingly, the remarks come from the Deputy Prime Minister Yosef Lapid, who also holds the Justice ministry.

Although Lapid denied any comparison between Israeli soldiers and Nazis, his remarks have sparked denunciations by other cabinet members. Sharon responded that Lapid's remarks were "like oil for the Arab propaganda machine."

And perhaps they are. Lapid went so far as to say that the destruction of Palestinian homes should stop because it is inhuman and un-Jewish. "In the end we'll be kicked out of the U.N., we'll be put on trial in The Hague, and no one will want to have anything to do with us," he said.

The former talk-show host helped raise the young Shinui party to a strong finish in last year's parliamentary elections, and is the second-largest party in the Sharon government.

A strong supporter of Sharon's plan to withdraw troops and settlers from Gaza, Lapid has apparently grown impatient with delays. Political analysts note that Sharon is between a rock and a hard place as he works to push his withdrawal plan through. A weakened version might lose Shinui support; a hard version might further agitate the ranks of his own party.

Comment:

Perhaps a talk-show host is playing politics; that's the first thing that comes to mind according to old-fashioned American cynicism. And it's true--such remarks do feed the Arab propaganda machine. But that's the problem with making such a feeding any sort of criterion: sometimes it might be true, and it might need saying. So it seems Lapid has decided.

As the human-rights clamor grows, and with UN Special Rapporteur John Dugard expressing his "horror" at the situation and calling on Israel to cease and desist the demolition of homes in Gaza, it might be that Lapid is not merely playing politics, and may be speaking an important voice that needs to be heard. Quite simply, the cycle of violence doesn't seem to be solving anything for anyone, and has the natural effect of agitating itself.

And some--we must be careful to note that these are not necessarily Israelis, and certainly are not in my examples--have invoked the name "Amalek" (see 1, 2.) The thing is that in Exodus, God declares that He will "totally obliterate Amalek from under the heavens." God even goes so far as to repent that He had made Saul king and remove that very kingship because Saul did not obediently complete the genocide of the Amelekites.

It may be that the Amalek comparisons, also, are fair. The situation is grave, and Israeli rhetoric frames the situation as a threat to Israel itself and all Jews. And there is some foundation for that argument. But in the end, will it come down to a UN-sponsored displacement of people leading to the blotting-out, the total obliteration of the Palestinian identity?

And it would seem that Lapid, for one, would prefer it not be so. He seems acutely aware that Israel can win as many battles as they please and still lose the war.
____________________

Works Cited

• Frankel, Glenn. "Gaza Incursions Reminds Sharon Ally of Holocaust." Washington Post, May 23, 2004. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49787-2004May23.html
• Press Release. "Special Rapporteur on Occupied Territories 'Horrified' at Israeli Action in Gaza." United Nations, May 19, 2004. See http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/hr4760.doc.htm
• Navigating the Bible II. "Exodus, Chapter 17." See http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P1992#P1992

See Also

• Christians for Action in Israel. "Elections in Israel - a Godly end-time event." November 30, 2000. See http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/endtime.html
• West, Charlotte. "Reflections on Amalek." February 28, 2002. See http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/amalek.html
• The Holy BIble (RSV). "1 Samuel." See http://wyllie.lib.virginia.edu:8086...odeng/parsed&tag=public&part=15&division=div1

 

[otheadp]

othedheap, fuck off you zionist bastard, no one likes Israel except for a few million jews.
you hate statistics, don't you...
i love your response though. makes complete sense too

tiassa,
appeal to emotion is not an argument.

We look like monsters in the eyes of the world . . . This makes me sick.
do dead bus riders not make you sick, Mr. Lapid?
i am glad to see you are humane and feel sorry for bystanders. i do however hope that as a deputy PM you consider what's best for those you are responsible for. if you can't handle the pressure maybe you should step down.

call me inhumane but i prefer several hundred homeless 'palestinians' than several dozen killed Israelis

as a recently banned member of this forum used to say: if you sow the wind be prepared to rip the whirlwind. (Arafat, maybe you should write that down)

 

[otheadp]

will it come down to a UN-sponsored displacement of people leading to the blotting-out, the total obliteration of the Palestinian identity?

God, i sure hope so!
it's a recent invention anyway. arab nationalism itself is fairly new too. 'palestinians' started having their own national identity sometime in the 70's when it was clear that they will get no help what so ever in rebuilding their lives by the arab governments who destroyed those same lives.

and what's so wrong in UN-sponsored displacement of people? (ok, i know... UN is a fucked up organization that can't do anything right) it worked for India and Pakistan, didn't it? there was a painful population transfer and Pakistan was born.
i'm thinking this solution can be applied in Sudan too.
let the North and the South split into 2 countries with 2 homogenous populations, and there's an end to religious civil war.

what needs to happen in Israel is for Jordan to stop pretending it is "Jordan". Jordan is Palestine, and it is the home of the 'palestinians'. 'palestinians', GO HOME!

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Read & Weep:

WWW.Informationclearinghouse.info/article4652.htm

By: Whirlwind....

Thank you for the interesting link:


Ariel Sharon: The Jewish Hitler

Ariel Sharon: Profile Of An
Unrepentant War Criminal

By Jeffrey Steinberg
Executive Intelligence Review (EIR)
http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/site_packages/2002/sharon/020430sharon_crime_hist.html

Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel, is currently facing possible war crime prosecutions for two massacres that occurred 20-years apart: the September 1982 massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, and the April 2002 Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank.

Sharon is, without doubt, guilty of these crimes against humanity, and others. He is also unrepentant. For him, these mass killings are merely necessary steps on the path toward his objective of a “Final Solution” to the “Palestinian problem,” through the mass expulsion and/or extermination of the more than 3 million Palestinians and Arabs now living in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Under various labels, Sharon and a rogues gallery of collaborators inside Israel, Britain, and the United States, are now moving toward the final phase of their “mass transfer” plans for the Palestinians and Arabs.
[Added note: “transfer” is the traditional Zionist euphemism for “ethnic cleansing”, accomplished through Israeli state terrorism, mass-murder and torture of Palestinian people.]

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/zionazis/SatanicSharon.html

 

[spidergoat]

Not even the most radical Jews advocate the extermination of Palestinians. Even expulsion is an unpopular view in Israel. Who would be left to do all the construction work? The rise to power of the right-wing Likud party is the direct result of Palestinian terrorism. Extremists create extremists.

 

[crazy151drinker]

"study what the UN says and the many resoluation it has made against Israel because of this."

You mean the UN that the Zionest US created? The same UN that has Lybia as the head of its Human Rights Commission? Get a clue, the UN is a JOKE. The UN is nothing more than a Diplomatic way for countries to SCREW each other. Maybe you should back off on your Anti-US crap being A) We founded the UN and B) We are the only ones keeping it afloat. I dont see any Arab countries footing the bill for it.

These areas Belong to Egypt and Jordan? Since when? Before or after they attacked Isreal and got their asses kicked? If they belong to Egypt and Jordon why dont they take them back? Face the facts! They LOST in a WAR. To the Victor goes the Spoils. TOO F-in Bad. Maybe they shouldnt have attacked Isreal?

If you Arabs love the Palastinians so much why dont you let them into your countries? Why dont you start a little housing project for them? Face it, the palastinians are nothing but a little TOOL that you use to get back at Isreal. The Arab world doesnt have the balls to get into a direct confrontation with Isreal because they know that they will get their asses handed to them on a platter- AGAIN.

"study what the UN says" About what? Pollution? Iraq? The Palastinians? Terrorism? If you honestly think the UN has any power then its YOU who needs to get an education.

"3/4 of Palastinans live on under $2 a day and tens of thousands homes have been knocked down."

Well if they stopped blowing up buses then their homes wouldnt be getting knocked down now would they? Maybe if you stopped acting like a bunch of stupid little shits the rest of the world would give you financial Aid and investments. But NOOOOOOO you have to go around blowing shit up. The sad thing is that Hamas and all these other little wannabees WANT the palastinians to live like shit. If they didnt they wouldnt have any POWER base! Who needs terrorists if your doing good? The palastinians are screwing themselves. And the whole time all you do is blame Isreal.
Where is Egypt? Where is Jordan? Where are the other Arab Countries? Why arnt they rebuilding your houses? Why arnt they provided financial aid? Where are your 'friends'? They are NO WHERE. You are being USED.

 

[otheadp]

Maybe if you stopped acting like a bunch of stupid little shits the rest of the world would give you financial Aid and investments.
the world gives the Palestinian Authority the largest amount of per-capita financial aid in the history of financial aid.
despite them acting like stupid little shits, and despite the money going to weapons instead of economy, infrustructure, and education.

 

[Tiassa]

appeal to emotion is not an argument.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Which appeal to emotion do you disagree with? A Holocaust survivor and cabinet minister's feeling of revulsion or a Sciforums poster's reflection that a situation invoking ideas like Amalek and the Holocaust might just be out of hand? Or is it something else?

Israel may be in, or may be approaching a no-win situation. Does it really matter how many battles Israel wins if it loses the war?

 

[spidergoat]

Israel is not in a no-win situation. They just need to make some painful comprimises, which may only be possible under a new administration. A two-state solution coupled with financial compensation for Palestinians who lost land, and the halt of settlement in Palestinian areas would be a start.

 

[otheadp]

spidergoat are you joking? what painful compromises?
the last painful compromises brought on this Oslo War (excuse me, "intifada")
the Hamas came up with its own 'peace plan' a the other day: a 10-year truce... that is, if Israel made some more painful compromises

Rabin, 1993:

"Stop being afraid. There is no danger that these guns will be used against us. The purpose of this ammunition for the Palestinian police is to be used in their vigilant fight against the Hamas. They won't dream of using it against us, since they know very well that if they use these guns against us once, at that moment the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will return to all the places that have been given to them. The Oslo Accord, despite what the opposition claims, is not irrevocable."

10 years ago when he was assassinated, i was brainwashed as a child to believe that Rabin was a "soldier of peace". he was a general but he made concessions for peace.
look where these concessions brought us!
thanks a lot Rabin!

anyone else wants to make concessions with this guy in charge?

Which appeal to emotion do you disagree with?
Tommy Lapid's for being a goddamn hypocrite... and yours for taking his words so seriously.
as i said, it is encouraging that he feels disgust because we are not like them. we have feelings and we feel sadness about what we must do. they don't care. they train their kids to commit suicide.. what does that show you?
and don't get all righteous on me about "us and they". you know who "they" are.
anyway, as i said before, some things need to be done to save Jewish lives. if it means some 'palestinians' will be homeless, so be it! and it is unfortunate, as Lapid said (and as you repeated) and it may remind him the Holocaust or Rwanda or whatever else will come to his mind. there is a difference, and there is a necesity here. if you can't understand that (i know you do) that is one thing.
if he can't understand it, he should get the f*ck out of the Knesset

 

[otheadp]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/431683.html

'palestinians' and CNN:
"gujillion bazillion homes razed, 13,000 homeless" during Operation Rainbow

'Human rights' groups: 180 destroyd buildings, 3000 homeless, during Operation Rainbow

UNWRA: "45 buildings razed, 575 homeless" during Operation Rainbow

if you consider UNWRA's bias, the number decreases even further.

the total for the month is supposedly 155 buildings. (UNWRA figures)
i wonder if that number includes the houses blown up by rival gangs and "work accidents"

 

[Kunax]

, as i said before, some things need to be done to save Jewish lives. if it means some 'palestinians' will be homeless, so be it! and it is unfortunate, as Lapid said (and as you repeated) and it may remind him the Holocaust or Rwanda or whatever else will come to his mind. there is a difference, and there is a necesity here. if you can't understand that (i know you do) that is one thing.

i bet hitler thought it was necesary to put all those jew, gypsies and what not in concentrasion camps

 

[spidergoat]

These bombings are not helping the Pals. cause, and they are wrong. They should not be done; they only increase the cycle of violence. I understand why some would feel like that, the Pals. need a defense. Their best weapon is international opinion, not bombs. Innocent Israeli's die as a result and they allow Sharon's to take power. Peaceful resistance, and a vocal one will take a long time to show results but it will work. Israel feeds off violence, I don't know why Pals. are giving Israel what it wants. Hamas, and Al Asqa should be disbanded, and a united front against Israeli aggression should be created. Whose purpose is to peacefully protest Israel’s actions, and only use force when attacked.

Undecided, this is the most rational thing you have said, I agree. The militaristic of the Palestinians are doing their people a disservice in the name of revenge. Revenge never solves strategic problems, only makes you feel better. The bombings create support for the right-wing parties in Israel, which support strong actions against militants, and you can't act strongly against militants without endangering innocent people as well. The Jews of Israel may be biased against Arabs, but they are not inherently cruel. Palestinian extremists are created by biased propaganda against Jews, and the Jewish state, which is taught from an early age through blatantly distorted and racist textbooks imported from Jordan and other places. The Palestinians need no defense against Israel, they need political power to unite their dream of a Palestinian state, and combat the injustice they face among some segments of Israeli jews. They all more or less got along before 1948, they can do it again. The Palestinians will never get much of their remembered homeland back, their villages are long gone, but they should recieve some compensation. Just as outsiders are permitted in Muslim countries as long as they remain the submissive minority, so too must Israel remain under Jewish rule. Palestinians might as well start over where they are, in fact many have. They don't like to admit that there are wealthy Arabs, too, in the West Bank, with large homes most Israelis would be envious of.

 

[Tiassa]

10 years ago when he was assassinated, i was brainwashed as a child to believe that Rabin was a "soldier of peace". he was a general but he made concessions for peace.
look where these concessions brought us!
thanks a lot Rabin!

Okay, so if I have you correctly, it is the concessions made by Rabin, and not the actions of subsequent Israeli governments which motivate the Palestinian movement?

Tommy Lapid's for being a goddamn hypocrite... and yours for taking his words so seriously.

A man with a conscience is a goddamn hypocrite?

Additionally, look at the noise made when Colin Powell merely appears as if he might possibly be considering the option of maybe disagreeing with the president.

If one of President Bush's cabinet members were to invoke our darkest hour as a nation and place us squarely on the other side of that moral line, we can certainly expect that many Americans would rush to the aid of their president and call decent the indecent, sanctify the profane, and justify that which is without excuse. And there would be that wing that seizes on the political opportunity. And they would get the headlines. And then the non-cosmopolitan, all-encompassing "middle America" would check in. And the whole nation would be, for the most part, giving the idea more thought than you're willing to give someone who, like you, abhors human suffering, but unlike you, sees all people--and not just some--as human.

Hypocrite?

as i said, it is encouraging that he feels disgust because we are not like them . we have feelings and we feel sadness about what we must do. they don't care. they train their kids to commit suicide.. what does that show you?
and don't get all righteous on me about "us and they". you know who "they" are.

And so do you, so I think you should stop painting the detail with a spray can.

Don't get all righteous? Yeah, it's the women and children who are "they." It's the displaced, not-yet fighters that you just have to lock into the system by stealing homes, stealing families, wrecking lives, who are "they."

Your exclusion of Palestinians from humanity is most disturbing.

anyway, as i said before, some things need to be done to save Jewish lives. if it means some 'palestinians' will be homeless, so be it!

Why don't you explain for us how leaving thousands of Palestinians homeless will save Jewish lives.

there is a difference, and there is a necesity here

And then, after you've explained how leaving thousands of Palestinians homeless will save Jewish lives, perhaps you can explain the necessity of committing crimes against the human rights that even Israel claims to be party to.

if you can't understand that (i know you do) that is one thing.
if he can't understand it, he should get the f*ck out of the Knesset

Something about fallacious appeals?

I do understand that you're downright bloodthirsty.

I do understand that you are a poor ethical and moral representation of the Jews.

I do understand that you are an acute representation of Israeli racism.

I do understand that you exclude the Palestinians from humanity.

I do understand that I find your arguments repugnant in the face of humanity.

I do understand that you invest your identity in politics and not humanity.

And I do understand that you wish to fallaciously include all Jews in the argument. Please consider carefully how you represent them. I have more respect for Jewish life than you tend to show.

 

[Undecided]

spidergoat I am also impressed by your rather cognitive reply, well thought out. I agree, that Pals. are not going to get all of the Levant back, that dream might as well die, but Israel cannot exist for much longer either. IMO the only way to stop the incessant cycle of violence is if the moderates on both sides finally speak out and rally their populations against the megalomaniacs in power (in Israel, and Palestine). Now if you agree with me in that argument then the natural conclusion must be a one state solution, that state would be recognized by all Arab states, Jews and Muslims Christians are guaranteed equal rights, property or otherwise. Settlers can stay on their land, and Arabs can reclaim land that was forcibly taken from them. Most importantly political parties must be formed that have an acultural leaning, and represents the interests of a state, rather then a people. If people in Israel really want to live in peace, they have to reconcile with Arabs, and visa versa. It's time to stop pointing blame and too move on,because the alternative is not pretty...

 

[spidergoat]

I mostly agree, Undecided, except for the single state idea. Where in the middle east is there a precedent for this? Arabs and Israeli Jews are interested in maintaining a kind of cultural separation, and why not, they seem to think it is important. Can you really envision a parliament or congress type situation with Arabs on one side and Jews on the other? I don't think this is possible. Democrats and Republicans often cannot agree, and yet they share much of the same ideology.

 

[Undecided]

Where in the middle east is there a precedent for this?

The entire Middle East, Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. Have you ever looked at the ethno-cultural maps of these countries? All those states are as fake as Palestine/Israel is, so really it does exist today. I think Lebanon is the best example of what I am talking about, today there is relative peace in the country today.

Arabs and Israeli Jews are interested in maintaining a kind of cultural separation, and why not, they seem to think it is important.

Who said that they have to merge cultures? Separate by equal, they can maintain their religious/cultural affairs without any interference from the gov't, and if anyone or group starts trouble the will of the population will stop them.

Can you really envision a parliament or congress type situation with Arabs on one side and Jews on the other?

No, because like I said in my other post: Most importantly political parties must be formed that have an acultural leaning, and represents the interests of a state, rather then a people. You wouldn't have Jews on one side and Muslims on the other, there would be parties that would represent the will of the general population, like the Liberals here in Canada, you know how many Quebecois PM's we have had in this predominantly English country? It is achievable, it will take a VERY LONG and painful process but eventually the end result would be realtive peace.

Democrats and Republicans often cannot agree, and yet they share much of the same ideology.

That's the whole point of democracy is not to agree, but the Democrats, and Republicans are both nationalists not culturalists, that the great divide.