Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

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It would have been suicide to let them stay in Europe, at least in Israel they have a social and military advantage.

Many Jews stayed in Euro and lived in relative peace afterwards. The recent Anti-Jewish attacks in Europe are a direct result of Israel's actions, and Israel get's stronger for it. Jews are suffering for Zionist deeds, also why should Arabs who were minding their own business suffer for the sins of Germans? I would have support a Jewish state in Germany or Poland in a second, that's were modern Israel should be.
 
1967: In deed. This is why I am so sure that if war is officially allowed, history will repeat itself.

I should have been more specific about "refuse to share". It is true that Israel also refuses to share but not all of the land. They still agree to share some of the land. Meanwhile, Palestine refuses to share any piece of land. There is a difference here which can show that Israel is more reasonable than Palestine; maybe not much but how about a little?
 
Meanwhile, Palestine refuses to share any piece of land.

You know what you are saying cannot be substantiated by facts, the Pals. have accepted the right of Israel's existence. Israel on the other hand is colonizing what is legally Pal. land. The one who refuses to share, the one who is powerful enough to refuse is Israel.

There is a difference here which can show that Israel is more reasonable than Palestine;

What exactly would that be?
 
The Jews are not allowed to have a homeland according to the old testament

some passages could be interpreted as such... sure

however, there is such a concept in the Talmud called Pikuakh Nefesh
it says that saving your life is the #1 religious duty, above all others
that is why it is permissible to violate Sabbath, diatery religious obligations and others, if it is in the process of saving your (or others') life

therefore, considering the ancient, not so ancient, and recent history, creating a homeland for Jews, from the perspective of Jewish law, is kosher.

i've spoken about this to khasids, and they agree. they don't particularly like Zionism, but they like the idea of Israel, even in its current, mostly secular state.
their goal is to first bring the Jews home, and at the same time, altho of a somewhat secondary nature, direct them towards the path of religion

regarding the recent letter from former US diplomats that blames US support of Israel for losing US its "friends",
pacifying fanatics is a slippery slope
there's also a very popular liberal rant about US befriending dictators... this is exactly what "regaining friends in the ME" would be.
"let's abandon Israel... then they'll be happy and we'll get to have cheap oil"... what's next?

those diplomats need to realize that Israel is not for sale
also, US has more to lose if they abandon Israel
for US to sign a deal with the devil and abandon a friendly liberal democracy that has been historically a very useful friend in many fields (from defense, to technology, to science, to medicine, to economy, to other things) would mean that US will have to abandon its principles, along with future gains

if that ever happens (US military and economic aid, loans, and loan guarantees have already been decreasing annually), US will not only have shot itself in the foot, it would've blown it right off
 
however, there is such a concept in the Talmud called Pikuakh Nefesh
it says that saving your life is the #1 religious duty, above all others
that is why it is permissible to violate Sabbath, diatery religious obligations and others, if it is in the process of saving your (or others') life


No such threat exists today outside Israel; frankly a Jew living in Israel would be contradicting that theorem. Consider that they would have a great chance dying in Israel then anywhere else on Earth, so it seems almost comical to use this line of argumentation. Try again, although I commend you for trying...
 
No such threat exists today outside Israel
with all due respect i have for you, nico, that's not for you to assess or decide

a Jew living in Israel would be contradicting that theorem
that's an opinion
and every opinion has a counter opinion

besides, you can respond differently to someone trying to murder you
you can comply with the agressor, or you can fight him

Jews have been pacifists historically, but it hasn't worked that well for us, y'know?
 
with all due respect i have for you, nico, that's not for you to assess or decide


With all due respect pothead, you have no right to tell me what to decide or asses.

that's an opinion
and every opinion has a counter opinion


So then present it....

besides, you can respond differently to someone trying to murder you
...you can fight him

This in the end has the same for the both of you, guilty and most likely dead. An eye for an eye does indeed make the world go blind. Don't expect Pals to allow you to do whatever the hell you want, and then have the audacity to complain when they defend themselves.

Jews have been pacifists historically, but it hasn't worked that well for us, y'know?

For Jews, yes sadly we xtians have treated Jews very badly. But why should Muslims and Arabs who have historically been Jewry's friend have to pay for the ills of my “people”? See I don't object to Jewish immigration to the Levant, what I object to is the imposition of the Israeli Zionist state, which should have been done in Germany. Jews should not be targeted, and they should not be killed. But the funny thing is that the very state that was supposed to stop that is making it worse for Jewry.
 
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you have no right to tell me what to decide or asses
but you do decide and assess regardless

just don't think you can decide or assess this for Jews

btw, i'm interested about the diplomats' letter... what do u think about that?
 
but you do decide and assess regardless


Yes because I live in a free and open society, I’d really like to avoid this:

stalin.jpg


As much as possible thank you, stifling debate is not my forte. Maybe in Mother Russia oth but not here.

just don't think you can decide or assess for Jews

Ask Jews themselves many would agree, and this is not an argument it's merely an attempt at deflection. Have anything else to say? Or do I expect an ad hom and flame?
 
Undecided said:
Israel is based on a lie; anything based on a lie will fail. Israel is in the eyes of many a religious affirmation of their beliefs, how little they know. Israel is based on the political philosophy of Zionism which is a reaction to anti-Semitism, as a result: Israel is the world's largest refugee camp, and as refugees they have to discomfort and eventually kick out the Arabs who were on that land for thousands of years. I personally don't object to Jewish immigration to the region, what I object to is the imposition of state of Israel, and Palestine. Both are not real, both are fallacious, both are causing more pain then they are worth. The only viable solution is a one state solution, or all out war. You choose...
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All these Jews think, that they can do anything they want, beacause of what Nazis did.
This Irrational Jew-loving mentality is really pissing me of. Arabs are made to look like total monsters, while greatest Jew-lovers, Americans torture Iraq prisoners.
Id like to see, when the time comes for USA to let Israel collapse. It will happen, sooner or later.
People are blind to see all the suffering, that rotten alliance of Jews and Americans are causing to this world. Great thoughts you have there "Undecided"!
 
laughing weasel said:
I am a Christian and I support Israel because Israel does not send children out to kill people. It is really that simple and I also believe that I can trust Israel to keep their agreements. I do not trust the Palestinians they appear to be ruled by savages and complain that they are treated like such. Appearance is a large part of life and they do not even attempt to win the respect or friendship of the larger countries. They just try to destroy them. No wonder their are so many dead Palestinians they are not acting smart so they get chopped down this is a sad reality that will not change
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Nope, Israel dont send kids out to kill themselves, the fucking Israelis do that. And being a child in Palestine isn't very "childlike" either.

for starters 75% of the population get by on less the $2 daily, next thing becasue of the walls built inside the occupied areas (and not even Isreal :mad: ) the schools, hospitals, etc are much much more far away. previously the used to be 3km away and are now 18km.

the kids have nowhere to play and are obviously poor and malnourished.

you never now when an Israeli helicopter or tanks gonna pop up either.

also in the city of hebron there are 100,000 Palatinianss and 700 jewish "settlers" who all "settled" in 1967. becasue of these 700 jews, 100,000 palastians have to have curfews and go through border checks.

and as for tursting Israel... your smarter then that aren't you. after breaking over 100 UN resolution (Iraq broke 17) and doing things that are ILLEGAL even by THEIR OWN law and US law such as the construction of the wall, assainating people without trials, killing 100,000 suvillans and maiming 500,000. illegal settlemants in gaza and westbank, the nuclear program it denies and admits to at the same time... etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,

and i though you learnt you lesson after thw USS liberty
 
Arafat the liar

Arafat the liar


to the west: "we will act against anyone, on either side, who tries to violate the peace"

to the 'palestinians': "from the river to the sea!"

http://www.zoa.org/videos/TheTrojanHorse-DSL.asf
it's a 20+ minute stream detailing Arafat's double speak, his deceptions, and lies.

it shows:
* how he and his ministers admit the intifada was planned from even before thee Oslo accords
* how a treaty with an enemy is just a means to your own end
* "peace talk" to the west, while "war talk" with his own people
* it's a religious duty to 'liberate palestine'
* his agreements with Hamas officials,

and many more things

probably the best document i've seen to date about Arafat and "the struggle"

you cannot trust the man to even tell you the time... and he is expected to be a "peace partner"?

for the bleeding hearts who cry for the 'palestinians', i suggest you watch this movie
... some will refuse because they don't want to watch "zionist propaganda"... but maybe they're just afraid to see it? can't hurt ya

and what should Israel do with this f*cker, who controls everything...
from his own corrupt ministers, to the international donations...

this man is the one that holds the key to any "peace talks".
one man
and it is Arafat

you want the conflict to end? killing him and getting the key from him is the 1st step
 
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eh...killing him would just piss a LOT of people off. What needs to be done if he really is as evil as you say (I don't like asf files so I didn't watch it :p ) is to completely discredit him to his people. Killing him outright just martyrs him, and we all know what that brings about. Instead Israel, US, et al, need to do things that make him unpopular with his people...perhaps enough to get his own people to kill him/deal with him themselves. Quick and easy solutions are rarely the best ones for complicated situations...
 
Good idea, in theory, Cazov. However, unlike Israel and the US, the West Bank (and the surrounding Arab countries for that matter) are not democracies. They are oppresive theocracies or monarchies, or tyrranies that hide under the guise of democracy. It is much easier to discredit a tyrant to his own people. Just read anything by Orwell... This is a very sensitive issue that needs more debate and detail than this. An Israel thread should be started.... Anyone interested?
 
Good idea, in theory, Cazov. However, unlike Israel and the US, the West Bank (and the surrounding Arab countries for that matter) are not democracies. They are oppresive theocracies or monarchies, or tyrranies that hide under the guise of democracy. It is much easier to discredit a tyrant to his own people. Just read anything by Orwell...
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Of course it's a good idea ;)

But, I don't understand where're you're coming from by saying "in theory"...that is, usually "in theory" implies that the suggestion is not practical yet you seem to be offering support...so I'm more confused about this portion than anything else...

This is a very sensitive issue that needs more debate and detail than this. An Israel thread should be started.... Anyone interested?
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Seems to me that we're discussing Arafat's lies, and what to do with him...I'd think this is an appropriate thread for that...
 
guys, you might actually wanna check the ASF
you'll be shocked!

this isn't even an opinion or analysis of Israelis
this is straight from the horse's mouth!

you've got Arafat (and his "government") saying one thing to the world, and then you've got him saying the complete opposite to his peeps!

it's got other things in there but this is the main point of the documentary

they don't write THAT in NYT, do they...

about propaganda and discrediting him in his people's eys, it's pretty damn hard to compete with PLO's propaganda. just watch the ASF and you'll see

It is much easier to discredit a tyrant to his own people. Just read anything by Orwell
i've read Orwell... and it is precisely for the reason tyrants are tyrants that it is very hard to discredit them... especially a worm like Arafat

killing him will probably make him "the greatest martyr in modern Muslim history"... but so what? it's not like they will all of a sudden going to change all their political views once he's gone. they will simply be free from his grip.
even if a permanent political solution will be reached, 'palestinians' will still hate Israel for being what they see as thiefs

Arafat (or rather his death) is the key to peace in the middle east
......

you see, most liberals think he is fighting a noble cause against an "oppressor" and that he is a "man of peace" because of his Nobel peace prize

mainstream media doesn't show stuff like the ASF... which is why i recommend you check it out
 
killing him will probably make him "the greatest martyr in modern Muslim history"... but so what? it's not like they will all of a sudden going to change all their political views once he's gone. they will simply be free from his grip.
even if a permanent political solution will be reached, 'palestinians' will still hate Israel for being what they see as thiefs
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Its a "quick and dirty solution"...while it'll probably work eventually, I do think there would be less strife, violence, and waste if things were gone about in a different manner. Offering the olive branch to the people time and again in situations where it makes their leaders look bad is probably a better way to go about deposing Arafat. His people see him (and Hamas and etc) as the only ones fighting for them, who care about them. They're naturally going to rally behind these groups, especially when they get killed in attacks that target the militants....I think methods need to be used that make the people want the militants gone...

But then again, just killing him outright is probably easier, plus it'll provide more money for defense contractors and more opportunity for Israel to secure more land in the heavy fighting that would ensue...
 
Sorry guys, I meant to write that is much HARDER to discredit a tyrant to his own people. My fault. (I reread my post this morning and almost slapped myself hehe).
 
An Israel thread should be started.... Anyone interested?
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There have been plenty of threads about Israel in the past, and one thing has been made clear by the pro-Israeli faction: If we undertake an examination of the practicality or integrity of Israeli actions without first declaring open hatred for Muslims, then we are racists against all Jews everywhere.

At present there's a pause in these kinds of posts about Israel; nobody wants to have a pointless discussion like that. When the pro-Israelis are ready to cope with reality, they'll let us know.
 
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