Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

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Sorry to interject...

When a nation is forced to defend itself against an aggressor, by international law, any land they acquire during that defense becomes the property of the defender.

Then do you mind explaining to me why Israel still occupies land it stole from the Arab states in 1967? Hypocritical isn't it? Israel has 60 UN resolutions on these issues, everything from Right of return to Pal. land, all of which have been ignored. I mean don't even bring up International law when it concerns Israel...

Israel (I think it was Barak -- am I spelling this right?), at Camp David, offered to return most of the Palestinian land and Arafat refused a very generous offer -- preferring an all or nothing stance. Blame Arafat.


Firstly have you ever seen the "very generous" map? Or did you hear it on TV and said "stupid Arafat"? "return most of the Palestinian land" does that even pretend to come off as logical? Some of their land? They should get it all, it's their land.

Blame Arafat.


I blame ignorance...
 
Axes wasn't the only one doing it, Undecided. This was 50% you, 50% him. And if it wastes your time, why do it and waste your own time, and then have me waste mine deleting them? Really, over all it's a very bad choice to flame back even if you didn't start it.
 
No, its not all their land, any more than Texas belongs to Mexico.

Answer my questions, not the one who made up in your mind please.
 
No. I'm saying that you shouldn't go around accusing people of making irrelevant posts, flaming the member, and then accusing him/her of ad hom attacks. And then run around saying "I really don’t like getting into flame wars with others," when you're sitting there and doing it. It's like saying that you can't stand murder, but you go out and pull an OJ Simpson over the weekend.

I don't like having to clean up someone’s mess and then them saying that they didn't make it when it's obvious that they did. Own up to your mistakes, it's your responsibility.
 
It's quite easy to speak from that perch of yours coffee, but here on the ground things aren't always so cut and dry. Those posts were irrelevant, and many times I deleted my own posts. I do own up to my ad homs, I even stated that I was engaging in a ad hom. At least I don't hide behind a facade when I do an ad hom. In retrospect what I did wasn't right, but I was on the defensive here on this instance. But anyways enough of this let the thread go on.
 
Perch? I'm on a perch? Last time I recall I could still be flamed by certain members around here, and they get away with it. I do notice one or two deleted posts by you every now and then. And I hold the opinion that if it was posted, it would have been deleted. For which I’m gracious that you did delete them (Although why you posted them in the first place escapes me).

Being on the defensive has nothing to do with it; you still engaged in flaming. You've flamed in the past on your own before, too. I'm saying that you need to make better judgment calls.

And yes, do let this thread go on.
 
This is not to say all the land which is now occupied by Israel belongs to the Palastinians.

I never asserted that the entire Levant was in contention. I was talking about territories that belonged to the Arabs prior to the 1967 invasions. Even you admitted that defender keeps that land. So why do you only question the Arabs? Israel is the greatest offender on this charge.

By international law, Israel has a right to exist.

I never asserted differently.

By laws of conquest, Israel has a right to exist. By laws of occupation, Israel has a right to exist.


Blah, blah...I am discussing land Israel illegally occupies, and colonizes. Answer those questions. Again all you are doing is answering what you think was asked, and you wanted me to say. Answer what I wrote please.

I'm not sure how anyone thinks the Palastinians ever owned this land.

Pals. is merely a machination of Arab nationalism, Arabs owned that land prior to 1917, and the Brits in 1939 gave the Levant to the Arabs. They lived on that land for thousands of years, Jews haven't they left. They have no claim to that land (Jews) other then a religious one, and that forbids them from going back. So really your argument has little to stand on.

We have to get over this idea that the Palastinians own all the land between Jordan and the sea.

They have land claims to that land; they lived there for thousands of years (again). They did exist as a political entity under the Ottomans as a province of the empire. Prior to the Jewish empire Egypt owned the land, so really again the land should be Egyptian more then anyone else’s. The modern reality is that Palestine is being robbed of it's legally given right to exist. If Israel wants peace it has to recognize this.

This war has been waged for much of the last 4000 years

No it hasn't this war only started back in 1917 when the Zionist's got a claim to that land, and when in 1939 that claim was rescinded. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in peace prior to the artificial intrusion of European Jewry, and Zionism.

Maybe there is some way the Palastinians might actually own some of the land.

It's their right; it should be given to them without delay. Of course I do not support a Pal. State, nor a Israeli one.
 
Brian Foley said:
Zionism is central to Jewish thought it is the promised land and the Messiah .


With so may Zionists being athiests, I would presume the devil is in there somewhat...err, err, I mean somewhere, with his Zionist trespasser brethern, da? :D

If, you listen to the decent Jews at: WWW.JewsNotZionists.org, one would say you're all wet. :eek:

Whirlwind....
 
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! :mad:

No one loses the right to their country because they have been invaded by a bunch of SHELL SHOCKED Holocaust surviving "armed to the gills" Zionist cut throats! :(

Like most "fat & Sassy" American's you sit on your fat arse and make comments about situations that you "have no business" even commenting on.

Of course, if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be screaming BLOODY MURDER the loudest.

Charity begins at home, remember? So why don't you bring a few Zionist trespassers off the West Bank and Gaza to live in "your" world (in couple of years, or less, you'd be sitting on the outside looking in and wondering "Whaaa happened, where is "my" house!).

I sometimes wonder how we American's got so sick in a mere 225 years....

WTC was a rude awakening for America that you can't go around murdering, maiming, displacing and pushing and (((bombing))) people all over the planet just because "they" aren't willing to let a gluttonous society of obeseites come along and rape them of their natural resources.

Saddam Hussien was an Arab nationalist that believed that the Arabs should have control of their oil and their destiny (its called nationalistic economics) - this is what made him Public Enemy #1 to America.

Oh, excuse me I mean Saddam "the terrorist" to whom Ronald Reagan and Don Rumsfeld sent the CHEMICAL WARFARE ingredients with which to attack the Iranian's and later the the Kurd's: NO MONEY DOWN and NO PAYMENTS DUE and the rest is history.

Note: 19 million gallons of toxins (Agent Orange) poured on the hapless Vietnamese people in the 1970's by the US in the worst Ecological/Environmental disaster in the history of the planet - now "THAT'S REAL TERRORISM!"

Oh, you forgot about that one, huh? :eek:

Whirlwind....
 
David F. said:
I'm not sure how anyone thinks the Palastinians ever owned this land.

A very typical comment coming from the "last guy that got there," a day late and a penny short. :p

Possession is 9/10ths of the law, world over, and the fact that the Palestinian's have lived on the land uninturrupted for centuries is better than a "Deed of Trust!"

Stupid Zionists, don't they know that they're supposed to outgrow their Momma's TORAH STORIES? (I think they just "play stupid" in hopes that the world will see things their way - retards! ).

It would be a hell of a world if eveyone was forced to return to their original borders of 2,000 years ago, huh?

Start packing, David!

Whirlwind....
 
outlandish,

let's asume that all the theories and analyses you've presented are in fact true.
even in that case, the Israeli gov't has the right to reject the "ROR" (by the way, it's not the right of return, it's the request of return. and it's not return but citizenship)
you know why?
because of international law, if you want to appeal to its authority, created Israel in the first place. and sovereign nations can set their own immigration and naturalization policy. capish?

then there's the issue of who is a 'palestinian', who was there in the last 150 years, who created the refugee problem(s), etc.

so no. the Request Of Citizenship is an arrogant unrealistic demand
the sooner Arafuck stops drilling "ROR" into the brains of the people he is responsible for and is supposedly representing, the sooner their lives will improve and the conflict will be over.

"right of return" my hairy ass :m:
 
Whirlwind said:
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! :mad:

No one loses the right to their country because they have been invaded by a bunch of SHELL SHOCKED Holocaust surviving "armed to the gills" Zionist cut throats! :(

Like most "fat & Sassy" American's you sit on your fat arse and make comments about situations that you "have no business" even commenting on...
I like your honesty mate you speak well i can see why the American posters want you banned from this forum the truth hurts .
 
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Sharon's plan gets rejected

Sharon's plan gets rejected


The plan that involved the pullout of Israeli settlers got vetoed by his Likud Party link .
Both Palestinians and Isrealis have condemned Sharon's plan. I'm starting to think that it may have some merit. It must be a good plan if both sides hate it. Right?

Also:
"Israeli mother, 4 daughters slain in Gaza Strip ambush"
.."Tali Hatuel, 34 — who was eight months pregnant — was on the way with her four children, Hila, 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, and Merav, 2, to campaign against the plan when two Palestinian gunmen, posing as vegetable vendors, opened fire on the car sending it skidding off the road."
.."TV footage showed rescue workers sifting through the white Citroen station wagon, a poster reading "A Jewish heart votes no," plastered across the car hood."...

That stupid bitch! .. Loading up her 4 kids in her car, then putting a target on it. I hope, for their children's sake, most settler moms have more sense than that. That stupid bitch! That just infuriates me.
 
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otheadp said:
outlandish,

let's asume that all the theories and analyses you've presented are in fact true.
even in that case, the Israeli gov't has the right to reject the "ROR" (by the way, it's not the right of return, it's the request of return. and it's not return but citizenship)
you know why?
because of international law, if you want to appeal to its authority, created Israel in the first place. and sovereign nations can set their own immigration and naturalization policy. capish?

then there's the issue of who is a 'palestinian', who was there in the last 150 years, who created the refugee problem(s), etc.

so no. the Request Of Citizenship is an arrogant unrealistic demand
the sooner Arafuck stops drilling "ROR" into the brains of the people he is responsible for and is supposedly representing, the sooner their lives will improve and the conflict will be over.

"right of return" my hairy ass :m:

let's asume that all the theories and analyses you've presented are in fact true.
They are. Furthermore I will take your failure to answer my previous hypothetical question as indication of your slow realisation of the fact, whether you wish to accept it is another matter entirely.

(by the way, it's not the right of return, it's the request of return. and it's not return but citizenship)
OMG! now your giving me half assed refutations of fact with bullshit semantics and half baked re-phrasing of terminology!!!

The present govt of israel can "re define" anything it wishes to. Thyeve got their foot in the door. The entire state was founded, conceived and set up on the basis of flawed intepretation of some vague biblical doctrine
Furthermore [/B]my previous post clearly and concisley showed how the doctrine of RIGHT of RETURN has been mis intepreted and deliberatley mis used by the zionists. I showed this in terms of:

i)flawed historical intepretations
ii) completely flawed and false antropological ideology
iii) complete denial of an entire peoples geneology and ancestry
iv) the deliberate ADOPTION of some false connection to a completely different peoples along the basis of false ideology
v) the brutalisation and oppression of a complete group of peoples who actiually poses the natural rights which now have been stolen and adopted as a direct result of i) to iv)

I was clear and concise then, and I will be now too.

Any subsequent "govt" of israel can define, re define any term it now wishes to. Who the hell cares now? The damage has been done, you've set up your base.
Don't take meaningless re-definitions of a fundamental doctrine by a govt of a state formed on completely false baseless principles as refutaions to those false principles.
right of return, request of return it doesn't matter now. The isr govt can call it what it wants, the original doctrine still stands as relevant, and the consequent false use by the zionists of said doctrine still stands as a relevant refutation to the formation of the zionist state


because of international law
international law???? OMG...you really want to talk international law jabotinsky?? OK my russian aetheist friend....bring it on LMAO (int law my ass). don't make a fool out of yourself.

if you want to appeal to its authority
I do, and I have.

and sovereign nations can set their own immigration and naturalization policy. capish?
sovereignty? whose sovereignty? how did israel get this sovereignty jabotisnky?
illeagal and immoral sovereignty attained by deception and completely false ideology and denial of the truth is no sovereignty. capiche?

then there's the issue of who is a 'palestinian', who was there in the last 150 years, who created the refugee problem(s), etc.

OH MY GOD.....your foolishness beggars belief. I'll give you 10/10 for persistance though jabby.

1) there is NO ISSUE of whose palestinian.
2) We all know who was there in the last 150 years and the last 150,000 years
3) the real issue is how eastern european and russian jews can claim blood lineage to the hebrew israelites
4) the real issue is how a faux jewish state can be founded by these said europeans who AREN't even jews, dont follow judaism, reject the TORAH and dont believe in God!!!!

those are the real issues.

ok Jabotinsky you couldn't answer my previous question, here's another one:

hypothetically if the ancient state of israel was in china, and the ancient hebrew isarelites were obviously indiginous to that region ie CHINESE, could it be possible for eastern europeans to claim lineage and blood connection to those ancient chinese peoples?
could it be possible for easten europeans to lay any legitimate claims to that land in china????????????????????????
 
Why do Palesitians bomb? 3 Reasons:

1. It was the most effective way they can have their revenge against a powerful enemy.

2. It was prescribed in Islam: "kill (the enemy) and be killed"

3. Islam promises them instant salvation and unlimited sex & wine in heaven.
 
DoctorNO,

1. I don't think it is the most effective way because the retalliations are usually more damaging to their own side.

2. To be more correct: "Kill (the enemy) and kill yourself".

3. This is only true for straight ones. What about gays? Will they be given 72 virgin boys?

OK, to be serious, I think they are just simply idiots because all I have seen so far is suicide bombing does not solve anything but only make matters worse on all including on their own people.
 
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DoctorNO said:
Why do Palesitians bomb? 3 Reasons:

1. It was the most effective way they can have their revenge against a powerful enemy.

2. It was prescribed in Islam: "kill (the enemy) and be killed"

3. Islam promises them instant salvation and unlimited sex & wine in heaven.

2) show me the relevant sura/aya from the quran and relative authentic hadeeth.

you completely fail to grasp any context whatsoever regarding fighting for the cause of Islam you moron. 1400 years ago muslims faced death at the hands of the meccans for their faith, comletely different situation which you fail to grasp in your state of idiocy.

the isr/pal conflict is NOT one of islam. The issues are brutality + oppresson of a peoples, the stripping of any rights basic or otherwise of a peoples from their land.

Islam has nothing to do with it. The fact that said peoples happen to be Muslims is irrelevant to the core issues, and you fail to recognise the fact that Palestinian does not equate to islam/muslims as many palestinians are Mizrahi jews and many are christians.

dont embarass yourself on a subject you know nothing about.
 
outlandish said:
2) show me the relevant sura/aya from the quran and relative authentic hadeeth.
Quran 9:111. GOD has bought from the believers their lives and their money in exchange for Paradise. Thus, they fight in the cause of GOD, willing to kill and get killed. Such is His truthful pledge in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran--and who fulfills His pledge better than GOD? You shall rejoice in making such an exchange. This is the greatest triumph.

outlandish said:
you completely fail to grasp any context whatsoever regarding fighting for the cause of Islam you moron. 1400 years ago muslims faced death at the hands of the meccans for their faith, comletely different situation which you fail to grasp in your state of idiocy.
Faced death? Now its your turn to prove your claims.

And where does it say in the quran that that verse was only applicable in the 7th century?


outlandish said:
the isr/pal conflict is NOT one of islam. The issues are brutality + oppresson of a peoples, the stripping of any rights basic or otherwise of a peoples from their land.
But Islam is used to justify suicide bombings. Like it or not. ;)

outlandish said:
The fact that said peoples happen to be Muslims is irrelevant to the core issues, and you fail to recognise the fact that Palestinian does not equate to islam/muslims as many palestinians are Mizrahi jews and many are christians.
Then name one palestinian suicide bomber who was a christian or a jew. good luck.

outlandish said:
dont embarass yourself on a subject you know nothing about.
My knowledge would surprise you. I aint DoctorNO for nothing. ;)
 
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