Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[Baron Max]

So Baron, you are proud of being a secular Christian detached from religion?

Yes, I am, as a matter of fact.

Didn't Jesus teach you to have trust in the will of God as well?

Never met the man.

Does this mean Muslims are better Christians than Christians today?

I think it means that religion plays such a major part of Muslim life that they can't adequately deal with secular issues of the 21st century on a worldwide scale involving various other people, religious or otherwise.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

No.

So are you saying or implying that it's due to being so far behind the times in the 21st century? That Arab or Indian Christians are sorta' like the Christians of old, like the Crusaders or such in the "whatever-tuckin'-century-it-was"?

When are other people of the world gonna' enter the 21st century?

Baron Max

I think its a difference in religious involvement. Western religion is all about appearances and convention is disregarded when it interferes with social intercourse. This is true for everyone from the Reform Jew to the Ijtehadi Muslim.

In the east that has never been true, religion is the basis of society, no matter how secular it gets.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Propagating false things about your cult is what you seem to do best, so you should also expect me and others here to say something about it. It's not only delusional on your part to provide the propaganda that you do, but it's also delusional for you to believe anyone is going to accept it.

I guess it is also 'delusional' of me to expect any honesty in a debate with you. "Delusional" of me to think that you had not completely sold your humanity for an atheistic cult.

I really don't care to propagate my views, as you do, because it does not affect me. The only thing I dislike is for someone to spread false claims about my religion, and when I provide proof of their lies, to claim that I am 'delusional,' hence freeing them of the obligation to provide proof to counter my assertion, as you regularly do.

Basically, this is a one-sided discussion, because you will always demonize Muslims and you will not see that deceptive posts and lying is counter to truth.

What more can I expect, there is no morality in Atheism. You can do whatever you want, lie as much as you want, kill as much as you want, because there is no God to judge you.

Atheism is much more dangerous than any religion can ever be. All the mass-murderers in the world have been atheists, i.e. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Why believe in God if it is half-hearted? Why even entertain the idea if it doesn't effect your communal lives, and only your personal lives to a minor degree?

Also, please answer my question: Would God be pleased with his self-professed servants ignoring his commandments in regards to government, society, and social morality?

It doesn't make any sense to me. Either believe in God completely, or don't. Be true to yourself.

 

[(Q)]

I guess it is also 'delusional' of me to expect any honesty in a debate with you.

You never engage in debate, only propaganda.

"Delusional" of me to think that you had not completely sold your humanity for an atheistic cult.

Absolutely.

I really don't care to propagate my views, as you do, because it does not affect me. The only thing I dislike is for someone to spread false claims about my religion

Spouting endless propaganda about your cult affects you as it only serves to demonstrate that you're irrelevant and vacuous.

Basically, this is a one-sided discussion, because you will always demonize Muslims and you will not see that deceptive posts and lying is counter to truth.

More lies. I don't demonize Muslims. I criticize Islam. You yourself are a liar, and if you want lie as a Muslim, then you can shouldn't react if others call you on it as a Muslim.

What more can I expect, there is no morality in Atheism. You can do whatever you want, lie as much as you want, kill as much as you want, because there is no God to judge you.

Apparently, there are hundreds of gods to judge me and you, too. I just believe in one less god to judge me, than you do.

Atheism is much more dangerous than any religion can ever be. All the mass-murderers in the world have been atheists, i.e. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.

Ah yes, when everything else fails, fall back onto lies and deceptions. You really are thinly-veiled, DH.

 

[(Q)]

It doesn't make any sense to me. Either believe in God completely, or don't. Be true to yourself.

If one were really true to themselves, they wouldn't believe in any gods. That would only demonstrate they are lying to themselves to be true to a delusion.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Calling all Muslims as liars and hypocrites is demonization. There isn't any other way around it. Furthermore, you spend much of your time criticizing Muslims over other religious people. This means you are obviously a racist against Muslims, but then again you are a Zionist also. I don't think this is a coincidence. Supporting an occupying power which murdered 1,000 Palestinian civilians to only losing 2 civilians of its own in recent Gaza invasion. You can't be reasonable and support such a regime.

Note that you still have not provided ANY proof that I am a liar. None whatsoever.

You talk big, but you never support any of your accusations with evidence. Hence, it is no use talking to you.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you because you will never provide any proof I'm a liar, because you can't. You keep yelling that I'm a liar, but you never give any proof.

From what I have read, making accusations without evidence is not allowed in this forum, and liable to get you banned.

 

[S.A.M.]

From what I have read, making accusations without evidence is not allowed in this forum, and liable to get you banned.

Not if you're an atheist. Even if (Q) never provides a single piece of evidence to back up his constant claims of calling people dishonest or liars, it will make no difference. You however would be banned if you went around doing it.

 

[(Q)]

Calling all Muslims as liars and hypocrites is demonization.

There you go with the lies again.

There isn't any other way around it. Furthermore, you spend much of your time criticizing Muslims over other religious people. This means you are obviously a racist against Muslims

Muslims are not a race.

but then again you are a Zionist also.

And, now that you've fabricated that which you will no doubt believe, you can justify yourself as being a poor, victimized Muslim. Well done.

I don't think this is a coincidence. Supporting an occupying power which murdered 1,000 Palestinian civilians to only losing 2 civilians of its own in recent Gaza invasion. You can't be reasonable and support such a regime.

What I don't support are your propaganda and fabrications, which have very little to do with the reality of Gaza.

 

[(Q)]

Not if you're an atheist. Even if (Q) never provides a single piece of evidence to back up his constant claims of calling people dishonest or liars, it will make no difference. You however would be banned if you went around doing it.

The fact that you and DH fabricate/copy/paste a great deal of Islamic propaganda does not preclude the fact most everyone indoctrinated into a cult would do the same.

DH is just another form of (insert favorite cult) evangelist. Quran thumping is no different from bible thumping.

 

[Arsalan]

Q:
No, but all theists must follow the tenets of their religion or they're just hypocrites.In other words, the religion demands people to be "robots."

Let’s see: I’m a Muslim. The Six Main Articles of Faith are:

To believe in the Oneness of Allah.
To believe in all His Angels.
To believe in all His Books.
To believe in all His Prophets.
To believe in the Day of Resurrection.
To believe in the Decree of Allah

The Five Pillars are:

Shahadah
Prayer
Zakat
Fasting
Hajj

This is what Islam is about. Now that’s 11 things. Believing in One God? Ye, that’s real robot material. Believing in Angels? Real robot material. Believing in Holy Books? Yep, I’m a real robot now. Etc. Etc. Now let’s see what every person has to believe in and follow in their daily lives in the UK and the US and some other countries:

A person in contemplation of death may execute his own will, without need of lawyer’s assistance and the other formalities of a testament provided it is entirely written, dated and signed by the hand of the testator himself [Art. 810]. Under the Civil Code of the Philippines (R. A. 386 - approved: 18 June 1949), this is known as ‘holographic will’. It is subject to no other form, may be made in or out of the Philippines, and need not be witnessed.

Illegitimate children, as a general rule, shall use the surname and shall be under the parental authority of their mother. But pursuant to the ”Act Allowing Illegitimate Children to Use the Surname of their Father” (R. A. 9255 - approved: 24 February 2004), which amended Article 176 of the Family Code, illegitimate children may however use the surname of their father if their filiation has been expressly recognized by the father through the record of birth appearing in the civil register, or when an admission in a public document or private handwritten instrument is made by the father. The father however has the right to institute an action before the regular courts to prove non-filiation during his lifetime.

THAT business entities or enterprises registered as ”Barangay Micro Business Enterprise”, or BMBE, under the “Barangay Micro Business Enterprises Act of 2002” (R. A. 9178 - approved: 13 November 2002) are entitled to the following incentives: (a) tax exempt from income arising from operations [Sec. 7]; (b) exemption from the payment of minimum wage [Sec. 8]; and (c) special credit window from some government financial institutions [Sec. 9].
To qualify as BMBE, the company must be engaged in the production, processing or manufacturing of products or commodities, including agro-processing, trading and services, and its total asset, including those arising from loans but exclusive of the land on which the particular business entity’s office, plant and equipment are situated, is not be more than Three Million Pesos (P3,000,000.00) [Sec. 3 (a)].

Food outlets, restaurants, and stores are required by the “An Act for Salt Iodization Nationwde (ASIN) Law” (R. A. 8172 - approved: 20 December 1995) to make available to customers only iodized salt in their establishment [Sec. 5 (c)]. A violation is punishable by a fine of not less than P1,000 nor more than P100,000, including a possible revocation of business permits and/or ban of its product from the market [Sec. 9].

Common law marriage is permitted in a minority of states. To be defined as a common law marriage within the states listed below, the two parties must: agree that they are married, live together, and hold themselves out as husband and wife. Common-law marriage is generally a non-ceremonial relationship that requires "a positive mutual agreement, permanent and exclusive of all others, to enter into a marriage relationship, cohabitation sufficient to warrant a fulfillment of necessary relationship of man and wife, and an assumption of marital duties and obligations." Black's Law Dictionary 277 (6th ed. 1990).

Want some more? Sure thing:

Sale of Goods Act 1979

Misrepresentation

Fraudulent Misrepresentation

Negligent Misrepresentation

Liability

Negligence

Privity

Strict liability

Guarantee

Fitness for purpose

Conditional Sale

Credit Sale

Statutory Implied Terms

Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1999

Consumer Protection Act 1987

Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971

Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000

Remedies

Human Rights Act

Liability of Sureties

Consumer Credit Act 1974

Unfair Terms

Arbitration

Price Marking Order 1979

Food safety Act 1990

The Weights and Measures Act 1987

Consumer Safety Act 1979

Powers of Criminal Court act 1973

Unfair Trading Act 1973

Enterprise Act 2002

Occupiers' Liability Act 1957 s.2

Limitation Act 1980 s.11(1)

Prevention of Harassment Act

Defamation Act

Married Women's Status Act 1957

Guardianship of Infants Act 1964

Succession Act 1965

Marriages Act 1972

Maintenance Orders Act 1974

Family Law (Maintenance of Spouses and Children) Act 1976

Family Home Protection Act 1976

Courts Act 1981

Family Law Act 1981

Family Law (Protection of Spouses and Children) Act 1981

Domicile and Recognition of Foreign Divorces Act 1986

Status of Children Act 1987

Family Law Act 1988

Children Act 1989

Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act 1989

Child Care Act 1991

Child Abduction and Enforcement of Custody Orders Act 1991

Maintenance Act 1994

Family Law Act 1995

Domestic Violence Act 1996

Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996

Children Act 1997

Family Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1997

European Council Regulation 1347/2000

Children Act 2001

Domestic Violence (Amendment) Act 2002

Appropriation Act 2008 c.3

Banking (Special Provisions) Act 2008 c.2

Channel Tunnel Rail Link (Supplementary Provisions) Act 2008 c.5

Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 c.6 1

Children and Young Persons Act 2008 c.23

Climate Change Act 2008 c.27

Consolidated Fund Act 2008 c.33

Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 c.28

Criminal Evidence (Witness Anonymity) Act 2008 c.15

Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 c.4

Crossrail Act 2008 c.18

Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008 c.31

Education and Skills Act 2008 c.25 2

Employment Act 2008 c.24

Energy Act 2008 c.32

European Communities (Finance) Act 2008 c.1

European Union (Amendment) Act 2008 c.7

Finance Act 2008 c.9

Health and Safety (Offences) Act 2008 c.20

Health and Social Care Act 2008 c.14

Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 c.17

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008 c.22

Local Transport Act 2008 c.26

National Insurance Contributions Act 2008 c.16

Pensions Act 2008 c.30

Planning Act 2008 c.29

Planning and Energy Act 2008 c.21

Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008 c.13

Sale of Student Loans Act 2008 c.10

Special Educational Needs (Information) Act 2008 c.11

Statute Law (Repeals) Act 2008 c.12

Appropriation Act 2007 c.1

Appropriation (No. 2) Act 2007 c.10

Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Societies (Transfers) Act 2007 c.26

Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007 c.13

Consolidated Fund Act 2007 c.31

Consumers, Estate Agents and Redress Act 2007 c.17

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 c.19

Digital Switchover (Disclosure of Information) Act 2007 c.8

Finance Act 2007 c.11

Forced Marriage (Civil Protection) Act 2007 c.20

Further Education and Training Act 2007 c.25

Greater London Authority Act 2007 c.24

Income Tax Act 2007 c.3

International Tribunals (Sierra Leone) Act 2007 c.7

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 c.6

Legal Services Act 2007 c.29

Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 c.28

Mental Health Act 2007 c.12 1

Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act 2007 c.4

Offender Management Act 2007 c.21

Parliament (Joint Departments) Act 2007 c.16

Pensions Act 2007 c.22

Rating (Empty Properties) Act 2007 c.9

Serious Crime Act 2007 c.27

Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 c.18

Sustainable Communities Act 2007 c.23

Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 c.15 2

UK Borders Act 2007 c.30

Vehicle Registration Marks Act 2007 c.14

Welfare Reform Act 2007 c.5 3

Etc
etc

So what makes me more of a robot? Those six main articles of my faith? Those 5 pillars of my faith? Or the literally 100s and 1000s of Acts, statutes and caselaw I have to live by every single day? Or the horizontal programming on tv? Or the tube? Or is it the conditioning we receive at school according to the theories of Marx? Or is it that we are forced to recycle? Or is it that we are frced to not smoke in certain buildings? Exactly what is it that makes one a robot? If you have ever paid any attention to anything law related, you would see that your entire argument, that if people follow their religions and live by their religion they immediately become robots and incapable of anything else, is nothing but a big, steaming pile of BS.

Iceaura:
They have a common enemy - Western cultural imperialism, founded on such Western intellectual impositions as Darwinian theory, feminism, disresepect of deities, and so forth

The arrogance never stops. Let alone the incorrect description of what the East sees as Western Imperialism, (Hint: US bases and military expeditions, covert and non-covert, in their countries) half of those intellectual impositions cannot be ascribed to the West.

The bizarre transition from noting that creationism among the educated is a mark of irrational and dangerous religious fanaticism, to being taken as advocating "forcing people to believe" in this or that, is a very common experience in discussions with normal Muslims, fundie Christians, orthodoix Jews, practicing Mormons, etc.

If arguments and criticisms are, by some, consistently taken as attempts at coercion, it eventually occurs to the observer that maybe that's what they are, to those people - including their own.

Not really. It’s the product of years of hearing the same arguments from Atheists about various religious subjects. Take Creationism in the US for example. Every time I’ve witnessed an argument between a Theist and an Atheist with the subject matter being creationism, every single argument the Theist presented was labelled as “forcing his backwards beliefs on people” even though that was not the intention. Having spent considerable time in such an environment, I have picked up the habits. Want to debate whether Creationism is good or bad? Fine. I don’t really care about that. But it usually ends up with someone advocating one or the other be banned or forced. Hence my post.

 

[DiamondHearts]

There you go with the lies again.

Calling entire groups of people liars and deceivers is demonization. Of the worse kind. Like that committed by your atheist cousins, the Nazis, against the Jews in Germany. Demonization serves that agenda, hence the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq on lies and using demonization of Muslims.

Muslims are not a race.

They sure are being demonized like one. According to you, Muslims, as if all of us are the same, are all liars and hypocrites. When you have foreign armies in Muslim lands, naturally it will all come down to politics and of people like you justifying invasion of others' lands by demonization.

And, now that you've fabricated that which you will no doubt believe, you can justify yourself as being a poor, victimized Muslim. Well done.

The sad reality is that Muslims are demonized and oppressed. That's no 'delusion.' 100,000 dead Iraqi and Afghani bodies is not a delusion. I'm sure you are fully aware of the death and destruction your demonization of Muslims causes. You are trying to portray Muslims as sub-human by calling us all liars and hypocrites, I cannot think of any other motive.

What I don't support are your propaganda and fabrications, which have very little to do with the reality of Gaza.

Dead bodies don't tell lies. There are 1,000 dead bodies of Muslim men, women, and children lying under the rubble of what is Gaza, and all this supported by the demonization of Muslims. The same demonization which you have stated is your duty on this forum.

As far as I am concerned, anyone supporting such a brutal Zionist regime which butchers little children, can never be taken seriously. Obviously you have an agenda, and whether you know it or not, your assertions that Muslims are all liars and hypocrites will further demonize Muslims to make it easier for Western populace and its troops to kill Muslims without remorse. Hence, there lies the sad reality of your seemingly innocent tirades, the dead bodies of Muslims littering the fields of Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Somalia, and Afghanistan.

 

[(Q)]

Let’s see: I’m a Muslim. The Six Main Articles of Faith are:

To believe in the Oneness of Allah.
To believe in all His Angels.
To believe in all His Books.
To believe in all His Prophets.
To believe in the Day of Resurrection.
To believe in the Decree of Allah

The Five Pillars are:

Shahadah
Prayer
Zakat
Fasting
Hajj

This is what Islam is about.

It appears you agree with me wholeheartedly, and even provided the necessary "programming" as evidence. Thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[(Q)]

The sad reality is that Muslims are demonized and oppressed.

Obviously you have an agenda, and whether you know it or not, your assertions that Muslims are all liars and hypocrites will further demonize Muslims[/quote]


Yes, you will continue to fabricate more lies to further the facade of victimization.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Arsalan,

This is what Q is talking about:

Modern laws usually follows the same logic as science, laws are made, people question them constantly, appeal, petition or vote for to change them, in some cases everyone agrees the law was a failure (such as prohibition) and reverses it. As such modern law is not something people have faith, it is changeable, changing, dynamic, although without the kind of speed and unbiasness of science and technology mind you.

 

[Arsalan]

It appears you agree with me wholeheartedly, and even provided the necessary "programming" as evidence. Thanks! :thumbsup:

Your Welcome Ill be waiting for your counterargument to the rest of my post

 

[Arsalan]

Arsalan,

This is what Q is talking about:

Modern laws usually follows the same logic as science, laws are made, people question them constantly, appeal, petition or vote for to change them, in some cases everyone agrees the law was a failure (such as prohibition) and reverses it. As such modern law is not something people have faith, it is changeable, changing, dynamic, although without the kind of speed and unbiasness of science and technology mind you.

Religious law is not set in stone despite what some people may believe. At various times, various reinterpretations of religious law can be presented if people dont agree with certain laws and indeed this has been done, a lot. It is the same process we see in non-religious law. Take for example homosexuality in the US. The law is based on the Constitution and various other old papers. Yet, not so long ago homosexuality wasnt allowed. However, based on a reinterpretation of the same old Constituion it is no longer banned.

That graph is another piece of BS because it takes the mindset of a small minority in a certain group and then portrays that as the whole religion. Thats the major fallacy in that argument.

 

[(Q)]

Ill be waiting for your counterargument to the rest of my post

Why? The rest are strawmen.

 

[Arsalan]

Why? The rest are strawmen.

Ofcourse they are

 

[(Q)]

Religious law is not set in stone despite what some people may believe. At various times, various reinterpretations of religious law can be presented if people dont agree with certain laws and indeed this has been done, a lot.

Ah, the hypocrisy of religion, it's stench is overwhelming. Funny how ONLY those who follow those cults are allowed to "reinterpret" them as they see fit. So much for the word of their god when they decide they "don't agree with certain laws."