Islam Must Rule the World

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Sam, yes, I know that. But I'm sure there is some work out there?

This brings up two points:
1) If one is to suggest that the Caliphate or "Islamic" World initiated the European Renaissance (which is itself delineated by the numerous works of the human form in paint and marble) we'd have to expect to see something.
2) Why isn't there much? During the time of the Greeks some of the best art in marble came from Asia Minor. The Greeks learned and improved this craft from the Egyptians. So what happened?
3) IN regards to #2, if what happened was "Islam" I find it silly to think that an Islamic World, as the President in Iran supposedly seriously suggests, would be a better world. A world were people are not free to express themselves is a world destined to fail. Of cours the Iranian Presindent is really just pandering to small minded imbecile sheeple to get the votes and stay in power. And while stupid, it rings a cord, I think someone on here agreed with those exact sentiments?

Anyway, I'd like to see the human form because its more related to the topic and my hypothesis. If you would like to start a thread in the arts section I'd love to see some sculpture. I remember see a tile work that demonstrated an advanced mathematical spacial concept on a Persian Mosque (another BBC special I think?)

Michael
 
Norsefire said:
Although I agree that it's not Moslims golden age, the reason its said is because these happened at a time when Islam was at the peak of power in the world and the ME the most important world location.

I consider it more of an Arab golden age though
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Well I'd still like to see some representative work.

Also, why not Persian? Most of the scientists were Persian and the Arab Empire was built on the foundations of the Persian Empire.

Further, what do you mean "Arab" it's a funny term. Did Egyptians consider themselves "Arabs"? They do now, but I mean back then? There was a Syrian Roman Emperor who was called the Arab Emperor, so I suppose Syrians must have been considered Arabs but what about people in Asia Minor or present day Lebanon? One would have thought that they'd have thought they were Greeks with all the Byzantine city states around there.

Michael
 
Michael said:
Well I'd still like to see some representative work.

Also, why not Persian? Most of the scientists were Persian and the Arab Empire was built on the foundations of the Persian Empire.

Further, what do you mean "Arab" it's a funny term. Did Egyptians consider themselves "Arabs"? They do now, but I mean back then? There was a Syrian Roman Emperor who was called the Arab Emperor, so I suppose Syrians must have been considered Arabs but what about people in Asia Minor or present day Lebanon? One would have thought that they'd have thought they were Greeks with all the Byzantine city states around there.

Michael
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What do the Arabs, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Mongols, the Seljuk Turks and the Pashtuns have in common? If you eliminate Islam, that is?
 
Michael said:
Sam, yes, I know that. But I'm sure there is some work out there?

This brings up two points:
1) If one is to suggest that the Caliphate or "Islamic" World initiated the European Renaissance (which is itself delineated by the numerous works of the human form in paint and marble) we'd have to expect to see something.
2) Why isn't there much? During the time of the Greeks some of the best art in marble came from Asia Minor. The Greeks learned and improved this craft from the Egyptians. So what happened?
3) IN regards to #2, if what happened was "Islam" I find it silly to think that an Islamic World, as the President in Iran supposedly seriously suggests, would be a better world. A world were people are not free to express themselves is a world destined to fail. Of cours the Iranian Presindent is really just pandering to small minded imbecile sheeple to get the votes and stay in power. And while stupid, it rings a cord, I think someone on here agreed with those exact sentiments?

Anyway, I'd like to see the human form because its more related to the topic and my hypothesis. If you would like to start a thread in the arts section I'd love to see some sculpture. I remember see a tile work that demonstrated an advanced mathematical spacial concept on a Persian Mosque (another BBC special I think?)

Michael
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Actually the suggestion is that since the 300 years of war in Europe led to the elimination of all that was good in their society in a deliberate and indiscriminate manner, then without the Islamic Rennaissance, there would have been no Europe.

One thing to consider is that the Muslims preserved everything they came across, and did not consider it unworthy or less valid but treated it as knowledge and information. The West on the other hand systematically destroyed every society it touched and did not export or share its success beyond its borders. Muslim systems of trade made everyone rich, western systems of trade have made everyone but the West poor, so that only societies that kept their markets restricted and protected internal trade (like India) are able to compete today.

Most of the countries that were occupied by the colonialists (except America and Australia, which were open land) came to the attention of the West because of the riches they accumulated.
 
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Michael said:
Well I'd still like to see some representative work.

Also, why not Persian? Most of the scientists were Persian and the Arab Empire was built on the foundations of the Persian Empire.

Further, what do you mean "Arab" it's a funny term. Did Egyptians consider themselves "Arabs"? They do now, but I mean back then? There was a Syrian Roman Emperor who was called the Arab Emperor, so I suppose Syrians must have been considered Arabs but what about people in Asia Minor or present day Lebanon? One would have thought that they'd have thought they were Greeks with all the Byzantine city states around there.

Michael
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I use the term Arabs not by race but by state, as in the Egyptians were Arabs and Persians were Arabs, etc, because they were under Arab rule.

Michael: From your previous post "A world ruled by Islam would fail due to the fact that you cannot express yourself/no freedom" , basically what you said.

You have numerous faults there:

1. After Islam, insert the world "extremists", to make that statement correct.
2. During the Golden Age, to be creative and an entrepeauner (however its spelled) was rewarded.
3. There is no where that it says a Moslim should not be free. It says you must submit yourself to God (As well as it says in the Torah and Bible) but obviously such things do not happen in the modern world only where there are extremist idealists
 
S.A.M. said:
Human art forms were not common but you could instead look at the tile work of the mosques.

Besides, what does Greek art have to do with Islamic art? Are you saying the presence of art in Greece or Europe makes the art, science or advances of the Muslim era redundant? Or should it be diminished or not considered a place of pride in their history? After all, it is their Golden Age. Why not compare to other times in their own society and see at what point all of them were united under one ideology, in a manner calculated to bring out the best among all of them at the same time?

Are you of the opinion that the presence of Western values makes the Islamic values inferior even though it is the Western lifestyle which requires the blood of innocents to support itself?

Frankly, what makes Western civilisation so superior when it is based only on mouthing civilities and yet all its progress is dependent on stripping resources from less powerful countries while at the same time pretending to be humanist and purveyors of human liberty? While they support trade practices that ensure the demolition of self sustaining society (and call it healthy competition) but invade and occupy countries because they wish to trade their own oil in euros (not so healthy competition)?
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I think that the Western sense of Democracy and secular State are much better than that of a Theocracy and I think History bears this out. Which is the point in this thread.

Civilization in general is based on stripping resources - not just Western, all civilization. Which is why I think we have too many people. Humans of any level that could be called civilization strips resources from nature and kills animals and plants to live. Pick any point in time and that will be the case - I don't care if it's atheists or scientologists or Muslims.
That's just a simple fact.
The West has such high levels of productivity because their system of government is much more efficient that the people living in the West, including Muslims, are able to do it much faster than other humans. But make no mistake, if other humans continue to progress they will continue to strip resources kill animals plants etc.. Japan is "East" and they strip a lot of stuff from the Earth. China is East and they do too. India's economy will over take Japan soon and I can guarantee India's economy is based on stripping stuff from the earth - just as they all are.



You seem to keep wanting to pull this thread, which is about a One World government under Islam into a debate on economic policies of the West and East - I'm assuming you are also considering China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, India, ect..... too?

I went to the site you posted and I will read it more as I have time. Hey I agree we should tear down barriers in agriculture so long as the food is safe and allow Western farmers to go out of business. But in Democracies that's a hard sell to farmers. Republics are not freedom to South Asian farmers, they are representative of the wills of the People therein.

That said, most Americans (just like most people) I know are good people and simply just don't know anything. It's why its so easy for the Iranian leader to pander to the stupid. There are a lot of them out there.

Michael
 
The Western system of democracy is a sham. It lives off years of colonial exploitation (they return anything they take? Any compensation for 200 years of starvation, exploitation and poverty) and TILL today the Western system of politics and government can only survive by directly destroying Third world economy below subsistence level (e.g. it would take only a nickel a day from everyone in the developed countries to save the 25,000 to 30,000 children that die of starvation everyday).

Lets see a society that is democratic, self-sustaining and able to trade in a fair manner before glorifying secularism as a cover for international exploitation.

As for pulling it one way or the other, I am more interested in the children dying daily due to plain indifference and negligence than the prospect of chasing bogeymen based on ignorance and bigotry.
 
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Norsefire said:
3. There is no where that it says a Moslim should not be free. It says you must submit yourself to God (As well as it says in the Torah and Bible) but obviously such things do not happen in the modern world only where there are extremist idealists
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Yes, but this is whY I am asking for the example of human form.

You seen freedom is a funny thing. Sometimes one can think they are free and really not be. Where are the human forms in art from the very people who developed that art form!?!? It's as if it suddenly left the consciousness of three entire civilizations??? Why? Cold it be that submitting oneself to an ideal the drive to find it is lost? Where the hell are the human sculptures??? The human form is by far the most inspirational things in nature - yet it's completely missing in the Islamic world of asthetics.

That doesn't bother you a little?


Well, I'll just ask, which do you think it a better form of government? One based on a theology or one based on secular institutions?
 
Michael said:
Yes, but this is whY I am asking for the example of human form.

You seen freedom is a funny thing. Sometimes one can think they are free and really not be. Where are the human forms in art from the very people who developed that art form!?!? It's as if it suddenly left the consciousness of three entire civilizations??? Why? Cold it be that submitting oneself to an ideal the drive to find it is lost? Where the hell are the human sculptures??? The human form is by far the most inspirational things in nature - yet it's completely missing in the Islamic world of asthetics.

That doesn't bother you a little?


Well, I'll just ask, which do you think it a better form of government? One based on a theology or one based on secular institutions?
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It's completely missing? Quite the opposite, but it's not exactly drilled into people's heads like other civilizations. You live your life free and like all, you deserve a shot at success and the good life. You are rewarded for advancements,etc. Artists are artists, they tell the story of Human emotion. That is not missing from Islam.

But the rise of modern day Tyrants and war and depression and chaos have ruined all that Islam stands for: Peace, Prosperity, and Faith

A theology is by far the worst type of government in my opinion.
 
S.A.M. said:
The Western system of democracy is a sham. It lives off years of colonial exploitation (they return anything they take? Any compensation for 200 years of starvation, exploitation and poverty) and TILL today the Western system of politics and government can only survive by directly destroying Third world economy below subsistence level (e.g. it would take only a nickel a day from everyone in the developed countries to save the 25,000 to 30,000 children that die of starvation everyday).

Lets see a society that is democratic, self-sustaining and able to trade in a fair manner before glorifying secularism as a cover for international exploitation.
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Sam, you will have to start a thread an outline this hypothesis that Republics need third world nations to survive. A Democracy is just a vote. That's it. Secular institutions are just secular. A secular democracy needn't be rich. It is because it's productive. But it doesn't have to be.

Do you consider Japan a successful democratic nation with a secular government? Do the Japanese kill people to maintain their life style? Is Sony responsible for killing Chinese (they do have a lot of plants over there).

As China's and India's economy heat up are they killing poor third world people?

Which I wonder has had more child death from starvation - modern history or ancient history? (percentage of course).

What about the MASSIVE number of Chinese that died of starvation during Mao's rule? The worse starvation in history - 30 million people I think? Is that the fault of the West?


Anyway, I still want to see some examples of human form in Islamic art from the "Arab" Golden Age.
 
I am talking about the Western ideal of secularism. Secularism in the East, except now in Japan has never been devoid of religion; I predict an areligious Japan will go the way of the West; I would prefer India to retain its own systems rather than follow the Western model.
 
One quick question before I take off:
Did and do Islamic nations discourage marble work of the human form? If so why and is that a good thing?
 
S.A.M. said:
I would prefer India to retain its own systems rather than follow the Western model.
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I'm all in favor of improvements. I think the internet could be of good use - and will day one day. Maybe. If people are better educated in the past.

OK, now I really have to go!
 
the two most crazy religions, islam and christianity. they should kill eachother off.
 
S.A.M. said:
Jihad yourself, idoit. :mad:
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i'm not a part of a religion that kills people based on religion or change other's religions or invade countries based on religion. It's no different than a terrorist organization.

I'm no idiot, just a bit abrupt which I need to work on.
 
peta9 said:
i'm not a part of a religion that kills people based on religion or change other's religions or invade countries based on religion. It's no different than a terrorist organization.

I'm no idiot, just a bit abrupt which I need to work on.
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youre acting as if christianity and judaism dont do that as well
 
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