Islam Must Rule the World
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You got that right. No facts there.
It's really hilarious when Muslims claim their god created and controls the universe, yet he manages to step aside from any blame when children (which he created) die (which he controls) and it's actually "fair trade" that's to blame.
Fucking hypocrites.
Fucking hypocrites.
not slaves though
Oh yea unlike the west
Some of the people in remote majaras do live as slaves.
But I think that is true for any place
http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/osdfs/factsheet.html
Of course, frequently such activities are carried out with the full knowledge of local authorities.
Full knowledge yes, but try and stop it. The U.S accepts more immigrants (illegal and legal) than all countries combined. Those are the ones effected, usually from Asia.
Good, then you agree you're hypocrites.
Oh we're back to this again? Full bloody circle. How that's turkey SAM? Yummy? Now, as this has degenerated again lets take a sit back and watch a dance.
SAM -
Is Slavery always evil - YES or NO?
Is the Institutionalization of Slavery always evil - YES or NO?
:bagpuss:
Hey that's cute but you're not answering the question with a YES or NO.
Much like the morality on display in that death sentence heartlessly dealt out to that poor singing girl it's time to play red-herring and hide the Prophet.
SAM - Was the order to have the weak little singing girl murdered moral? YES or NO?
:bagpuss:
Yup I see ... very cute..... now about the answer....
SAM -
Is Slavery always evil - YES or NO?
Is the Institutionalization of Slavery always evil - YES or NO?
:bagpuss:
Hey that's cute but you're not answering the question with a YES or NO.
Much like the morality on display in that death sentence heartlessly dealt out to that poor singing girl it's time to play red-herring and hide the Prophet.
SAM - Was the order to have the weak little singing girl murdered moral? YES or NO?
:bagpuss:
Yup I see ... very cute..... now about the answer....
Question: Was slavery ended in 1.4 millennia after the introduction of Islam in the ME?
Answer: No, Muslims were buying and selling slaves right up until this last generation.
Question: Does the Qur'an forbid owning humans?
Answer: No, Muslims were buying and selling slaves right up until this last generation.
Question: What example did The Prophet set?
Answer: He owned Slaves.
What was the result this precedent set:
Finally, over a millennia later and with full pressure from the West, in 1962, Saudi Arabia outlawed slavery, freeing about 10,000 slaves out of an estimated 15,000-30,000.[*] Slavery was ended by neighboring Qatar in 1952, the Yemen Arab Republic in 1962, the UAE in 1963, South Yemen in 1967, and Oman in 1970. Some of these states, such as Yemen, were British protectorates. The British left South Yemen without forcing it to give up slavery, but did pressure the UAE into giving it up. In 2005, Saudi Arabia was designated by the United States Department of State as a Tier 3 country with respect to trafficking in human beings. Tier 3 countries are "Countries whose governments do not fully comply with the minimum standards and are not making significant efforts to do so."
[*] “Freedom is a good thing but it means a dearth of slaves” — Twentieth Century Solutions to the Abolition of Slavery1 (pdf). Yale University: Gilder Lehrman Center for the Study of Slavery, Resistance, and Abolition. Retrieved on 2007-08-21.
Answer: No, Muslims were buying and selling slaves right up until this last generation.
Question: Does the Qur'an forbid owning humans?
Answer: No, Muslims were buying and selling slaves right up until this last generation.
Question: What example did The Prophet set?
Answer: He owned Slaves.
What was the result this precedent set:
Finally, over a millennia later and with full pressure from the West, in 1962, Saudi Arabia outlawed slavery, freeing about 10,000 slaves out of an estimated 15,000-30,000.[*] Slavery was ended by neighboring Qatar in 1952, the Yemen Arab Republic in 1962, the UAE in 1963, South Yemen in 1967, and Oman in 1970. Some of these states, such as Yemen, were British protectorates. The British left South Yemen without forcing it to give up slavery, but did pressure the UAE into giving it up. In 2005, Saudi Arabia was designated by the United States Department of State as a Tier 3 country with respect to trafficking in human beings. Tier 3 countries are "Countries whose governments do not fully comply with the minimum standards and are not making significant efforts to do so."
[*] “Freedom is a good thing but it means a dearth of slaves” — Twentieth Century Solutions to the Abolition of Slavery1 (pdf). Yale University: Gilder Lehrman Center for the Study of Slavery, Resistance, and Abolition. Retrieved on 2007-08-21.
You're like an old broken record.
Since you apparently only seek answers that you can agree with, I suggest you ask your buddies for the answers. As far as I remember, I've already answered all of these.
By the way, can you link me to a slave "owned" by the Prophet - as in bought and paid for? And remember, no pieces of bark.
Since you apparently only seek answers that you can agree with, I suggest you ask your buddies for the answers. As far as I remember, I've already answered all of these.
By the way, can you link me to a slave "owned" by the Prophet - as in bought and paid for? And remember, no pieces of bark.
Time for some facts:
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, as you know, is one of the greatest scholars and chroniclers of Islam. In his book, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (Part I, p. 160), he says, "Muhammad had many male and female slaves. He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased (more slaves) than he sold, especially after God empowered him by His message, as well as after his immigration from Mecca. He (once) sold one black slave for two. His name was Jacob al-Mudbir. His purchases of slaves were more (than he sold). He was used to renting out and hiring many slaves, but he hired more slaves than he rented out."
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya relies always on the prophet's biographies written by great ancient scholars. Therefore, he is regarded by Muslims as an authority, a primary source and a leader among the students of the Islamic religion. This scholar tells us in his book, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (part 1, pp. 114, 115, and 116), the following,
"These are the names of Muhammad's male slaves: Yakan Abu Sharh, Aflah, 'Ubayd, Dhakwan, Tahman, Mirwan, Hunayn, Sanad, Fadala Yamamin, Anjasha al-Hadi, Mad'am, Karkara, Abu Rafi', Thawban, Ab Kabsha, Salih, Rabah, Yara Nubyan, Fadila, Waqid, Mabur, Abu Waqid, Kasam, Abu 'Ayb, Abu Muwayhiba, Zayd Ibn Haritha, and also a black slave called Mahran, who was re-named (by Muhammad) Safina (`ship').
He himself relates his own story; Safina says in his own words:
"The apostle of God and his companions went on a trip. (When) their belongings became too heavy for them to carry, Muhammad told me, `Spread your garment.' They filled it with their belongings, then they put it on me. The apostle of God told me, `Carry (it), for you are a ship.' Even if I was carrying the load of six or seven donkeys while we were on a journey, anyone who felt weak would throw his clothes or his shield or his sword on me so I would carry that, a heavy load. The prophet told me, `You are a ship"' (refer to Ibn Qayyim, pp. 115-116; al-Hulya, Vol. 1, p. 369, quoted from Ahmad 5:222).
The story shows their ruthlessness and does not need explanation or clarification. The ill treatment Muhammad and his companions made of Mahran is very repulsive. Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya is not the only one who recorded this episode and the list of names of Muhammad's slaves. The Tabari also (in his Chronicles, Volume 2 p. 216, 217, 218) presents us with these accounts. No one among the contemporary Muslim leaders denies these matters, especially if he is faced with the Tabari's and Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya's records.
Still, in regard to Muhammad's slave Zayd Ibn Haritha, Muhammad set him free and adopted him, then he married him to his (Muhammad's) cousin Zaynab. Later Zayd divorced her after he realized that Muhammad was captivated by her.
(such this scandalous story - but then again if you think back to that cute little singing girl who was knifed to death its starting to make a little more sense? I doubt it.)
Maid Slaves: In this same Section (One, p. 116), Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya as well as other Muslim authors of chronicles recorded the list of names of Muhammad's maid-slaves. They are Salma Um Rafi', Maymuna daughter of Abu Asib, Maymuna daughter of Sa'd, Khadra, Radwa, Razina, Um Damira, Rayhana, Mary the Coptic, in addition to two other maid-slaves, one of them given to him as a present by his cousin, Zaynab, and the other one captured in a war.
Lastly, in case you missed: Ibn Timiyya says emphatically,
"Her child whom she bore from him would be the property of her master according to all the Imams (heads of the four Islamic schools of law) because the child follows the (status) of his mother in freedom or slavery. If the child is not of the race of Arabs, then he is definitely an owned slave according to the scholars, but the scholars disputed (his status) among themselves if he was from the Arabs - whether he must be enslaved or not because when A'isha (Muhammad's wife) had a maid-slave who was an Arab, Muhammad said to A'isha, `Set this maid free because she is from the children of Ishmael.'"
Remember these are the highest and most respected MUSLIM SCHOLARS quoted.
So what would happen if a Muslim woman was open-minded and did not discriminate between one man and another? Say she had fallen in love with her slave who also loved her and they intended, officially, to get married. What is the attitude of Islam in this case? If something like that took place in Islamic society, it would be a disaster! Let us see the reaction of Umar Ibn Khattab in these situations. In Vol. 8, Part 11, pp. 248, 249, Ibn Hazm remarks,
"A woman was wed to her male slave. Umar intended to stone her, but instead he made them separate and sent the slave to exile. He told the woman, `It is unlawful for you to get married to your owned slave!' Another woman got married to her slave. Umar scourged her with a whip and forbade any man to marry her. Another time, a freewoman came to Umar and told him, `I am not a pretty woman and I have a slave to whom I would like to get married.' Umar refused to do so. He whipped the slave and ordered him to be sold in a foreign country. He told the woman, `It is unlawful for you to get married to what your right hand owns. Only men have the right to get wed to what their right hand owns. Even if you set him free in order to marry him and he becomes a freeman, the manumission will be invalid and the marriage is not valid."'
Is there any comment on the ruthlessness of this second caliph who was Muhammad's father-in-law and one of the ten to whom Muhammad promised paradise? He is one of the two whom Muhammad requested the people to follow as a model when he declared, "Emulate Abu Bakr and Umar." Yet Umar was a tyrant, a ruthless man without a heart who attempted to stone a woman for no reason except she married a man who was her slave. He also scourged another woman, forbidding any other man to marry her, and beat and exiled a slave. And when a third woman wanted to free her slave in order to marry him and live happily together, especially after she lost hope in getting married to a freeman, Islam and Umar intervened and said, "No, this is not permissible." He scourged the slave and sold him into a foreign country. By that, he became an example of relentlessness, a hard heart, and detestable oppression.
Ibn Timiyya states:
"The one who owns the mother also owns her children. Being the master of the mother makes him the owner of her children whether they were born to a husband or they were illegitimate children. Therefore, the master has the right to have sexual intercourse with the daughters of his maid-slave because they are his property, provided he does not sleep with the mother at the same time" (Vol. 35, p. 54).
These are Muslim historians, Imams and The “Prophet”. Islam’s greatest minds at work. Islam’s greatest leaders setting the example. Islam’s path was secured long ago and I think we can agree to whence it led.
Question: Was slavery ended in 1.4 millennia after the introduction of Islam in the ME?
Again: No, Muslims were buying and selling slaves right up until this last generation.
That is the truth. There is no way to get around it. Much like the loss of an entire art - that of the human form, the only thing left is to ask why?
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, as you know, is one of the greatest scholars and chroniclers of Islam. In his book, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (Part I, p. 160), he says, "Muhammad had many male and female slaves. He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased (more slaves) than he sold, especially after God empowered him by His message, as well as after his immigration from Mecca. He (once) sold one black slave for two. His name was Jacob al-Mudbir. His purchases of slaves were more (than he sold). He was used to renting out and hiring many slaves, but he hired more slaves than he rented out."
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya relies always on the prophet's biographies written by great ancient scholars. Therefore, he is regarded by Muslims as an authority, a primary source and a leader among the students of the Islamic religion. This scholar tells us in his book, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (part 1, pp. 114, 115, and 116), the following,
"These are the names of Muhammad's male slaves: Yakan Abu Sharh, Aflah, 'Ubayd, Dhakwan, Tahman, Mirwan, Hunayn, Sanad, Fadala Yamamin, Anjasha al-Hadi, Mad'am, Karkara, Abu Rafi', Thawban, Ab Kabsha, Salih, Rabah, Yara Nubyan, Fadila, Waqid, Mabur, Abu Waqid, Kasam, Abu 'Ayb, Abu Muwayhiba, Zayd Ibn Haritha, and also a black slave called Mahran, who was re-named (by Muhammad) Safina (`ship').
He himself relates his own story; Safina says in his own words:
"The apostle of God and his companions went on a trip. (When) their belongings became too heavy for them to carry, Muhammad told me, `Spread your garment.' They filled it with their belongings, then they put it on me. The apostle of God told me, `Carry (it), for you are a ship.' Even if I was carrying the load of six or seven donkeys while we were on a journey, anyone who felt weak would throw his clothes or his shield or his sword on me so I would carry that, a heavy load. The prophet told me, `You are a ship"' (refer to Ibn Qayyim, pp. 115-116; al-Hulya, Vol. 1, p. 369, quoted from Ahmad 5:222).
The story shows their ruthlessness and does not need explanation or clarification. The ill treatment Muhammad and his companions made of Mahran is very repulsive. Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya is not the only one who recorded this episode and the list of names of Muhammad's slaves. The Tabari also (in his Chronicles, Volume 2 p. 216, 217, 218) presents us with these accounts. No one among the contemporary Muslim leaders denies these matters, especially if he is faced with the Tabari's and Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya's records.
Still, in regard to Muhammad's slave Zayd Ibn Haritha, Muhammad set him free and adopted him, then he married him to his (Muhammad's) cousin Zaynab. Later Zayd divorced her after he realized that Muhammad was captivated by her.
(such this scandalous story - but then again if you think back to that cute little singing girl who was knifed to death its starting to make a little more sense? I doubt it.)
Maid Slaves: In this same Section (One, p. 116), Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya as well as other Muslim authors of chronicles recorded the list of names of Muhammad's maid-slaves. They are Salma Um Rafi', Maymuna daughter of Abu Asib, Maymuna daughter of Sa'd, Khadra, Radwa, Razina, Um Damira, Rayhana, Mary the Coptic, in addition to two other maid-slaves, one of them given to him as a present by his cousin, Zaynab, and the other one captured in a war.
Lastly, in case you missed: Ibn Timiyya says emphatically,
"Her child whom she bore from him would be the property of her master according to all the Imams (heads of the four Islamic schools of law) because the child follows the (status) of his mother in freedom or slavery. If the child is not of the race of Arabs, then he is definitely an owned slave according to the scholars, but the scholars disputed (his status) among themselves if he was from the Arabs - whether he must be enslaved or not because when A'isha (Muhammad's wife) had a maid-slave who was an Arab, Muhammad said to A'isha, `Set this maid free because she is from the children of Ishmael.'"
Remember these are the highest and most respected MUSLIM SCHOLARS quoted.
So what would happen if a Muslim woman was open-minded and did not discriminate between one man and another? Say she had fallen in love with her slave who also loved her and they intended, officially, to get married. What is the attitude of Islam in this case? If something like that took place in Islamic society, it would be a disaster! Let us see the reaction of Umar Ibn Khattab in these situations. In Vol. 8, Part 11, pp. 248, 249, Ibn Hazm remarks,
"A woman was wed to her male slave. Umar intended to stone her, but instead he made them separate and sent the slave to exile. He told the woman, `It is unlawful for you to get married to your owned slave!' Another woman got married to her slave. Umar scourged her with a whip and forbade any man to marry her. Another time, a freewoman came to Umar and told him, `I am not a pretty woman and I have a slave to whom I would like to get married.' Umar refused to do so. He whipped the slave and ordered him to be sold in a foreign country. He told the woman, `It is unlawful for you to get married to what your right hand owns. Only men have the right to get wed to what their right hand owns. Even if you set him free in order to marry him and he becomes a freeman, the manumission will be invalid and the marriage is not valid."'
Is there any comment on the ruthlessness of this second caliph who was Muhammad's father-in-law and one of the ten to whom Muhammad promised paradise? He is one of the two whom Muhammad requested the people to follow as a model when he declared, "Emulate Abu Bakr and Umar." Yet Umar was a tyrant, a ruthless man without a heart who attempted to stone a woman for no reason except she married a man who was her slave. He also scourged another woman, forbidding any other man to marry her, and beat and exiled a slave. And when a third woman wanted to free her slave in order to marry him and live happily together, especially after she lost hope in getting married to a freeman, Islam and Umar intervened and said, "No, this is not permissible." He scourged the slave and sold him into a foreign country. By that, he became an example of relentlessness, a hard heart, and detestable oppression.
Ibn Timiyya states:
"The one who owns the mother also owns her children. Being the master of the mother makes him the owner of her children whether they were born to a husband or they were illegitimate children. Therefore, the master has the right to have sexual intercourse with the daughters of his maid-slave because they are his property, provided he does not sleep with the mother at the same time" (Vol. 35, p. 54).
These are Muslim historians, Imams and The “Prophet”. Islam’s greatest minds at work. Islam’s greatest leaders setting the example. Islam’s path was secured long ago and I think we can agree to whence it led.
Question: Was slavery ended in 1.4 millennia after the introduction of Islam in the ME?
Again: No, Muslims were buying and selling slaves right up until this last generation.
That is the truth. There is no way to get around it. Much like the loss of an entire art - that of the human form, the only thing left is to ask why?
SAM ....?
SAM ....??
:bagpuss:
OH avoiding questions again and sending up a red-herring. Phew, I though you were going to answer a question of something so maybe the thread could move forward.
The Qur'an - yeah, so? People still read it and it has shaped history and the 1500 years of Slavery that was finally bannad a couple decades ago certainly isn't peaces of bark. Tell that to the freed Slaves - many are still alive.
I'm asking for ONE single piece of evidence. Lets see it.
The Quran is a qira, it was not collected. Please educate yourself and also ask yourself why the Hadiths were collected with citations. And how the system of citations was developed and indexed and what it means.
Typical debate with SAM
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya relies always on the prophet's biographies written by great ancient scholars. Therefore, he is regarded by Muslims as an authority, a primary source and a leader among the students of the Islamic religion. This scholar tells us in his book, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (part 1, pp. 114, 115, and 116), the following,
"These are the names of Muhammad's male slaves: Yakan Abu Sharh, Aflah, 'Ubayd, Dhakwan, Tahman, Mirwan, Hunayn, Sanad, Fadala Yamamin, Anjasha al-Hadi, Mad'am, Karkara, Abu Rafi', Thawban, Ab Kabsha, Salih, Rabah, Yara Nubyan, Fadila, Waqid, Mabur, Abu Waqid, Kasam, Abu 'Ayb, Abu Muwayhiba, Zayd Ibn Haritha, and also a black slave called Mahran, who was re-named (by Muhammad) Safina (`ship').
Could it be possible that the Qur'an is completely or partially fabricated? YES or NO
Now return back to the top with an avoidance of the question per usual.
Michael
first put you down as part of the Red-Herring.
follow this with a faulty memory and excuse for not answering the questions.
See below:
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya relies always on the prophet's biographies written by great ancient scholars. Therefore, he is regarded by Muslims as an authority, a primary source and a leader among the students of the Islamic religion. This scholar tells us in his book, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (part 1, pp. 114, 115, and 116), the following,
"These are the names of Muhammad's male slaves: Yakan Abu Sharh, Aflah, 'Ubayd, Dhakwan, Tahman, Mirwan, Hunayn, Sanad, Fadala Yamamin, Anjasha al-Hadi, Mad'am, Karkara, Abu Rafi', Thawban, Ab Kabsha, Salih, Rabah, Yara Nubyan, Fadila, Waqid, Mabur, Abu Waqid, Kasam, Abu 'Ayb, Abu Muwayhiba, Zayd Ibn Haritha, and also a black slave called Mahran, who was re-named (by Muhammad) Safina (`ship').
Speaking of peaces of bark, as you have no idea whom wrote which peaces when or where nor when the Qur'an was even completed into a cannon - that is on what day in which year it was finalized why don't you answer this question:
Could it be possible that the Qur'an is completely or partially fabricated? YES or NO
Now return back to the top with an avoidance of the question per usual.
Michael
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