Islam and human rights

[S.A.M.]

And if the tafsir back up the Quran? Can you point out a phrase to me that abrogates Sura 9?

Better yet, try living as a religious minority in Baghdad. Or Egypt. Pakistan. Afghanistan. Go to the street corner and announce your personal apostacy, loudly.

You want to live your religion? Great. Make sure it's not being taken out on anyone else then, please.

Did you find out what is different about Sura 9 ?

And here is the MOST EXTREME tafsir (the Salafi one); which I have linked for you AT LEAST once before, and many more times on this board.

Ask any Jew/Coptic where he would have preferred to live when Islam was at its height. As i said before, the Holocaust did not happen in a Muslim country; and it did not happen all that long ago either, there are still survivors present.

 

[GeoffP]

Did you find out what is different about Sura 9 ?

And here is the tafsir; which I have linked for you AT LEAST once before, and many more times on this board.

Yep, looked at it before. Here's an amusing phrase:

" broke the backbone of the order of ignorance"

and this

"The clans of Hawazin Thaqif, Naur, Jushm and others gathered their entire forces in the battle field in order to crush the reformative Revolution, but they utterly failed in their evil designs. "

"necessitated by the provocative activities of the Christians living within or near the boundaries of the Roman Empire"

Because we know this from independent sources. Right. I thought you weren't a literalist?

If we keep in view the preceding background, we can easily find out the problems that were confronting the Community at that time. They were:

to make the whole of Arabia a perfect Dar-ul-Islam,

to extend the influence of Islam to the adjoining countries,

to crush the mischiefs of the hypocrites, and

to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non- Muslim world.

Don't they mean "minor, regrettable jihad"?

Wow. Really repentant about that whole warring thing. And so neutral. Great tafsir. Not really helping your claims.

The object of Jihad was not to coerce them [the Christians] to accept Islam they were free to accept or not to accept it-but to prevent them from thrusting forcibly their deviations upon others and the coming generations. The Muslims were enjoined to tolerate their misguidance only to the extent that they might have the freedom to remain misguided, if they chose to be so, provided that they paid Jizyah (v. 29) as a sign of their subjugation to the Islamic State.

Oh? And here I'd been told it was just an ordinary tax, nothing special about it, not a mark of oppression in any way. A shocker.

The third important problem was to crush the mischiefs of the hypocrites, who had hitherto been tolerated in spite of their flagrant crimes. Now that there was practically no pressure upon them from outside, the Muslims were enjoined to treat them openly as disbelievers (v. 73).

Which crime? Religious freedom as supposedly espoused in Q 2: 256? You remember that ayah - the one where it says "there is no compulsion in religion".

Moreover, a clear declaration was made that in future the sole criterion of a Muslim's faith shall be the exertions he makes for the uplift of the Word of Allah and the role he plays in the conflict between Islam and kufr. Therefore, if anyone will show any hesitation in sacrificing his life, money, time and energies, his faith shall not be regarded as genuine. (vv. 81-96).

Yeah, that was kind of my point.

In this portion the Muslims have been urged to fight in the Way of Allah with the mushrik Arabs, the Jews and the Christians, who were duly warned of the consequences of their mischievous and inimical behaviour. 13 - 37

Wow. That's tolerance. So, to sum up: supremacist, bigoted garbage. The tafsir, and the whole sura, frankly.

Great job.

Ask any Jew/Coptic where he would have preferred to live when Islam was at its height. As i said before, the Holocaust did not happen in a Muslim country

It did almost happen three times in Israel. Does that not count? Ask a Coptic where he or especially she would prefer to live today.

 

[S.A.M.]

More selective pickings, I'm guessing you skipped the bits that did not agree with your bile. And THIS was the most extreme source

The Sunni tafsirs are more refined (And 90% of Muslims are Sunnis) but having seen how you "read" this one, I'm sure you will exhibit your usual objectivity.

 

[GeoffP]

Did you find out what is different about Sura 9 ?

And here is the MOST EXTREME tafsir (the Salafi one); which I have linked for you AT LEAST once before, and many more times on this board.

Oh dear. A little backpedaling now that I've critiqued the tafsir, I see. First it was:

And here is the tafsir; which I have linked for you AT LEAST once before, and many more times on this board.

Now however it's:

And here is the MOST EXTREME tafsir (the Salafi one); which I have linked for you AT LEAST once before, and many more times on this board.

I bolded the changed words for comparison. Anything you'd like to say at this point?

More selective pickings, I'm guessing you skipped the bits that did not agree with your bile.

Hmm. Well, let's think about that one.

I read the point of the tafsir as being this:

This portion deals with the sanctity of treaties and lays down principles, rules and regulations which must be kept in view before breaking them, in case the other party does not observe them sincerely. 1 - 12

In this portion the Muslims have been urged to fight in the Way of Allah with the mushrik Arabs, the Jews and the Christians, who were duly warned of the consequences of their mischievous and inimical behaviour. 13 - 37

Which, the article indicates, is this:

In order to enable the Muslims to extend the influence of Islam outside Arabia, they were enjoined to crush with sword the non- Muslim powers and to force them to accept the sovereignty of the Islamic State. As the great Roman and Iranian Empires were the biggest hindrances in the way, a conflict with them was inevitable. The object of Jihad was not to coerce them to accept Islam they were free to accept or not to accept it-but to prevent them from thrusting forcibly their deviations upon others and the coming generations. The Muslims were enjoined to tolerate their misguidance only to the extent that they might have the freedom to remain misguided, if they chose to be so, provided that they paid Jizyah (v. 29) as a sign of their subjugation to the Islamic State.

Silly bilious me! I just didn't understand. I should spend a year in a madrassa. That would help me; and some brainwashing, apparently.

In this discourse, the Muslims have been told clearly and explicitly that they will inherit the rewards promised by Allah only if they take active part in the conflict with kufr, for that is the criterion which distinguishes true Muslims from hypocrites. Therefore true Muslims should take active part in Jihad, without minding dangers, obstacles, difficulties, temptations and the like. 38 - 72

This portion deals with the problems of hypocrites and lays down rules and regulations governing the treatment that should be meted out to them and points out their distinctive marks from true Muslims. 73 - 90

The rest is all fine and dandy, but still relates back to the point of this Sura: a mandate and a manual for war.

And THIS was the most extreme source

A bit too late for that excuse: see above.

The Sunni tafsirs are more refined (And 90% of Muslims are Sunnis) but having seen how you "read" this one, I'm sure you will exhibit your usual objectivity.

Strange...I thought MSA was Sunni with a sprinkling of Saudi. Anyway, whatever. Handwaving.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, I forgot it was the Salafi tafsir. I can have memory lapses too, especially when I'm fasting .

But you can check it out, knowing your extreme objectivity, I'm sure you'll be happy to tell me if its otherwise.

 

[GeoffP]

And how is it you first post the tafsir, then denounce it ("most x-treme!"), then accuse me of only sludging through the bile of it to find what I wanted?

You run that little show, and then accuse me of cherry-picking? Seriously; grow the hell up. I don't care if you're cranky, and it's not my fault.

 

[S.A.M.]

And how is it you first post the tafsir, then denounce it ("most x-treme!"), then accuse me of only sludging through the bile of it to find what I wanted?

You run that little show, and then accuse me of cherry-picking? Seriously; grow the hell up. I don't care if you're cranky, and it's not my fault.

Ah more posturing. Not that I would expect otherwise. Like I said, if its not a Salafi tafsir, you can tell me otherwise.

 

[GeoffP]

Yeah, I forgot it was the Salafi tafsir. I can have memory lapses too, especially when I'm fasting .

But you can check it out, knowing your extreme objectivity, I'm sure you'll be happy to tell me if its otherwise.

No no no no no. No "you're evil, Geoff" and then "oopsie me back off now". You told me you had linked it for poor ignorant me:

which I have linked for you AT LEAST once before, and many more times on this board

So were you fasting all the other times too?

Here's a thought: read your fucking sources before you use them, or else lay off the religion long enough to pause, consider things like Sura 9 and try to imagine what they mean for other fucking people, Sam.

 

[S.A.M.]

No no no no no. No "you're evil, Geoff" and then "oopsie me back off now". You told me you had linked it for poor ignorant me:



So were you fasting all the other times too?

Here's a thought: read your fucking sources before you use them, or else lay off the religion long enough to pause, consider things like Sura 9 and try to imagine what they mean for other fucking people, Sam.

You're still evil Geoff, you cherry picked the Salafi tafseer too.:bugeye:

 

[GeoffP]

You're still evil Geoff, you cherry picked the Salafi tafseer too.:bugeye:

Right right: I linked to it. I followed your link just like you asked, and it's my fault. Right.

 

[S.A.M.]

Don't worry., you'll forget about it in a few minutes. :shrug:

 

[GeoffP]

Ah - you responded.

So what's the story here, Sam? Basically you've as much as admitted you're down with this tafsir, which you had posted "oodles of other times" for the likes of the dumb kufr on the site. But now that someone's broken it down it's not good any more? Ah - but I've still cherry-picked it. Rightie-o.

Yeah, move those goalposts. If they're too heavy, maybe the Holocaust denier can give you a hand? :shrugs:

 

[muhammad]

Some curiousnesses I have, that perhaps sam can answer (though I doubt I'll get anything but snide ad homs from her):

1. Islam treats women really poorly. At least, Islamic law does. Could someone point me to the verses that are interpreted to mean that women are subhuman beasts that should only be kept around for breeding purposes and brutally stoned when they misbehave? Discussion of how Arabs are a savage race of subhuman beasts that should only be kept around for breeding purposes and brutally stoned when they misbehave would also be acceptable. Err, I mean, discussion of the influence of Middle Eastern culture on Islam would be acceptable, as opposed to how illiterate these barbarians are that they cant even read their own goddamn holy book.

2. Why is Islam so violent? Rather, why are Muslims so violently violent towards everything, and where are the verses that support their violence? Or, if you're Samiam, which ones are being misinterpreted?

3. Why is Islam so intolerant? What's with the jihads, programs, and campaigns of terror in the name of God? Any scripture to back up their intolerance?

ummm...




as a muslim ..... and proud to be


i can assure you that islam ( which is the last valid religion came on the top of true religions ) islam gave women what they never got in any place in the world and gave them what they dream of.

i have so many evidences ( ofcourse im talking about the rule as usual not about the followers )
the rules in islam is : a woman is like a jewel ... her husband must look after her ... feed her .. pay money for her ... protect her .... must make his efforts to make her live in a good house ..... must talk to her gently ... never insult her .... a man must be jealous ... a man is not allowed to make relation with any stranger woman .... ... a man gives her wife very nice clothes to wear in her home she is allowed to wear anything she loves .. but in front of others she must be protected from their sneaky eyes because she is a special jewel not everyone is allowed to touch it....... sooooo many things i can tell you here

and i have evidence from Quraan the words of ALLAH that give women rights they never got in any other society ........ if you are interested to read those words ( for sure you will be surprised when you find how women are being honored in Quraan and islam ) ...
if you wanna read the words and understand them read on this link:


http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=eng&nSora=4&nAya=1&t=eng


Surah An-Nissa number 4

scroll the verses till the end and read carefully and you will be amazed .

by the way An-Nissa means women in Arabic

a big SURAH big part and very important in quraan is to talk about women and how they are honored in islam and how to treat them in the best way on earth.

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=eng&nSora=4&nAya=1&t=eng

 

[(Q)]

ummm...




as a muslim ..... and proud to be


i can assure you that islam ( which is the last valid religion came on the top of true religions ) islam gave women what they never got in any place in the world and gave them what they dream of.

Really? I never met one woman who ever dreamt of being treated like furniture or wished to be oppressed. Thanks, you've really enlightened me today.

i have so many evidences ( ofcourse im talking about the rule as usual not about the followers )
the rules in islam is : a woman is like a jewel ... her husband must look after her ... feed her .. pay money for her ... protect her .... must make his efforts to make her live in a good house ..... must talk to her gently ... never insult her .... a man must be jealous ... a man is not allowed to make relation with any stranger woman .... ... a man gives her wife very nice clothes to wear in her home she is allowed to wear anything she loves .. but in front of others she must be protected from their sneaky eyes because she is a special jewel not everyone is allowed to touch it....... sooooo many things i can tell you here

To be kept oppressed and treated like furniture pretty much sums up your "evidences."

and i have evidence from Quraan the words of ALLAH that give women rights they never got in any other society ........ if you are interested to read those words ( for sure you will be surprised when you find how women are being honored in Quraan and islam ) ...
if you wanna read the words and understand them read on this link:

http://middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/

 

[Michael]

i can assure you that islam ( which is the last valid religion came on the top of true religions ) islam gave women what they never got in any place in the world and gave them what they dream of.

No it doesn't. Women simply dream of one thing - equality.

 

[muhammad]

lets talk about the reality not about your thoughts guys !!


i am a muslim man and i am married and i got so many friends and i know their wives are very happy and not treated as furniture as you suppose


i got a big family and women in my family are treated like a jewel and like a princess


so please either take it or leave it .

 

[S.A.M.]

lets talk about the reality not about your thoughts guys !!


i am a muslim man and i am married and i got so many friends and i know their wives are very happy and not treated as furniture as you suppose


i got a big family and women in my family are treated like a jewel and like a princess


so please either take it or leave it .

You're wasting your time. None of these people with the "opinions" have lived among a Muslim community. Nor do they intend to. They merely feel free to project their opinions on others, regardless of what the reality is. You'll notice they brush aside the the conditions of women in the West; I've lived in both cultures and I have seen more unhappy women in the West. Just mouthing concepts appears to be more important than practising them. In fact, the Muslim men here (even the juveniles) take my opinions more seriously when they oppose theirs, than any of the non-Muslim men on this forum.

 

[GeoffP]

Yeah, the extending of legal protection to women in the West really sucks. Why can't they just let things be, so that men are responsible for their protection? No chance that would ever be exploited. And even if it were: so what? Uncles have to get laid too.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, the extending of legal protection to women in the West really sucks. Why can't they just let things be, so that men are responsible for their protection? No chance that would ever be exploited. And even if it were: so what? Uncles have to get laid too.

Yeah, everyone knows the advantages that women have in the West; that is why they are so fulfilled and secure in their opinions, with few of them getting pregnant or having abortions in school, puking over the toilet due to their ultra positive body image. Even the babe who gets sexually assaulted every two and a half minutes does not move.

 

[GeoffP]

But she can call the cops, and expect at least an attempt at justice. Too bad that's not possible in the East, no matter how many times a woman gets assaulted. I suppose she could get enough witnesses to her plight if all her uncles were there; one wonders what they'd all be doing there of course.