Islam and human rights

I don't know if you actually looking for a real answer based on how your questions are phrased, so I won't bother trying to respond completely but just take the last one.



Up until about the 15th century the Muslim world was much more tolerant the Christian world. Both tolerant of other religions as well as of secular (or pagan) knowledge. How tolerant were the Christians then with Galileo or Bruno? Or with the Jews lived in Christian territories? Or with Muslims?

So if you're really concerned with intolerance in parts of the Islamic world today you should look at the historical and social conditions that have lead some Muslims to act intolerant or violently.

I don't really care about the socio bullshit that liberals are all to ready to throw up in defense of murderers.

What I am interested in is the theology that these murderers use to defend themselves. What parts of the Koran are they reading that tell them it's ok to kill people? Are they reading the same koran Sam is? I'm genuinely curious.

This is a religious question, in the religious forum. I don't care about any speculation on what sort of squalor these savages dwell in, or that they don't know how to appreciate a global economy. If I did care about that shit, I wouldn't be posting in the RELIGION forum!!!!!!!
 
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Someone should tell the Muslims then, because historically it is the so-called followers of Jesus who apparently feel the need to liberate everyone at great cost to the liberated.

Untrue the followers of muhamed had an almost uninterrupted string of conquest and liberation for 800 years, they even sacked rome ;)
 
Well, it looks like you know everything already. Not much anyone can tell you, let alone a subhuman beast.

How is it okay for you to drop biased ad homs about the USA and it's somehow logical and poignant, but when a person DARES do something even remotely similar to your culture/religion, it's immediately attacked from your holier-than-thou position?

Fine, the USA has earned a lot of your ire, but then you can't deny the fact that the Islamic world has as well. Or are Muslims off limits, but America is perfectly legitimate?

~String
 
How is it okay for you to drop biased ad homs about the USA and it's somehow logical and poignant, but when a person DARES do something even remotely similar to your culture/religion, it's immediately attacked from your holier-than-thou position?

Fine, the USA has earned a lot of your ire, but then you can't deny the fact that the Islamic world has as well. Or are Muslims off limits, but America is perfectly legitimate?

~String

Neither, I just know Roman better than you do. ;)
 
The relevance is that it is false to make an absolute statement about a religion when the practice of that religion changes from period to period and place to place. That was my original point. And what Sock puppet path said actually helps make that point. I probably shouldn't have even made a claim about the Islam vs. Christianity in general even during the middle ages. Suffice it to say that some Islamic regimes were more tolerant than some Christian regimes. It's still however false to draw a general conclusion about either religion based on that.


I did not see Roman ask "why has islam forever been violent"; he asked "why IS it". If I remember correctly that denotes the present tense.
 
I did not see Roman ask "why has islam forever been violent"; he asked "why IS it". If I remember correctly that denotes the present tense.

OK the answer is not that different. Some Muslims are violent & some are not. Some Muslims are intolerant and some are not. If you accept that it has not always been violent or intolerant then you should also accept that there is nothing inherent in the religion to make it so. When diversity of interpretations of the bible you see people who all kinds of crazy junk, why should it be any different for people interpreting the Koran?
 
OK the answer is not that different. Some Muslims are violent & some are not. Some Muslims are intolerant and some are not. If you accept that it has not always been violent or intolerant then you should also accept that there is nothing inherent in the religion to make it so. When diversity of interpretations of the bible you see people who all kinds of crazy junk, why should it be any different for people interpreting the Koran?

I generally agree with this statement; it's just that I think the strains of intolerance on some issues run deeper in the present islamic community than for Christianity or even Judaism. There's little in the Bible that equals "strike the heads off the unbelievers" or "attack the unbelievers wherever you find them" or "invite them to islam and, if they refuse, slay them or oppress them and force them to pay the tax [jizya]" or "make them to feel themselves oppressed". This is the message of Sura 9 (and Sura 2, and 5 to some degree; Sura 4 is pretty bad in some respects too). There are passages in the Bible that are also intolerant, but the Christians at least hold a trump: the New Testament has a Jesus that refutes the punitive side of religion, who condemns stoning, and persecution in the name of religion, and preaches only goodwill to his fellow man, although he still says that his coming will probably cause discord. (Idiots will cite Luke 18 here as "proof!!!11!" that he was supposed to have also advocated violence; such idiots should probably be catapulted into the Red Sea.) The Old Testament is a bit more sanguine, obviously, but weren't all the nonhumanitarian aspects of the OT thrown into disrepute by that conference in the 1800s? And where are the Jews running around murdering people for changing their religion?

In neither of those cases is the state apparatus religious in nature (although there are certainly religious advocates and lobbyists). This is the issue about islam - it's always been directly tied to politics, so that apostacy is punishable by death. Never has such a modern state apparatus been tied to a religious intolerance so strong. This is the issue, and the problem.
 
I generally agree with this statement; it's just that I think the strains of intolerance on some issues run deeper in the present islamic community than for Christianity or even Judaism. There's little in the Bible that equals "strike the heads off the unbelievers" or "attack the unbelievers wherever you find them" or "invite them to islam and, if they refuse, slay them or oppress them and force them to pay the tax [jizya]" or "make them to feel themselves oppressed". This is the message of Sura 9 (and Sura 2, and 5 to some degree; Sura 4 is pretty bad in some respects too). There are passages in the Bible that are also intolerant, but the Christians at least hold a trump: the New Testament has a Jesus that refutes the punitive side of religion, who condemns stoning, and persecution in the name of religion, and preaches only goodwill to his fellow man, although he still says that his coming will probably cause discord. (Idiots will cite Luke 18 here as "proof!!!11!" that he was supposed to have also advocated violence; such idiots should probably be catapulted into the Red Sea.) The Old Testament is a bit more sanguine, obviously, but weren't all the nonhumanitarian aspects of the OT thrown into disrepute by that conference in the 1800s? And where are the Jews running around murdering people for changing their religion?

Well I only have a cursory knowledge of the Koran, although from what I have read it does say that Jews and Christians are to be given protection by the law and allowed to practice their religion (as they are considered people of the book), so I'm curious whether unbelievers in the instances you cite refers to any non-muslim or simply not worshippers of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God.

I do know, however, that even though there may be nothing in the New Testament to condone acts of violence against unbelievers that hasn't stopped Christians (at various times) from acting as if there is. As for the Old Testament, there may be no injunctions to kill unbelievers but it certainly seems that God encourages violence towards the enemies of Israel. As for Jews murdering people for changing their religion, the Bible says the penalty for having another god before Jehovah is stoning. Now it may be that current interpretation suggests that's the wrong response but its in there in case anyone wants to resurrect it.

So I would still say that you need to consider who is interpreting the text (in this case the Koran) and what social, political, etc. factors are affecting that interpretation. To look at any text without also considering the reader is a mistake if you wish to understand how that text is affecting that person.
 
I did not see Roman ask "why has islam forever been violent"; he asked "why IS it". If I remember correctly that denotes the present tense.

Close.
I'm asking what parts of the Koran are interpreted to mean "infidels die now".

For instance, Sam tells me that the story of Lot is a story of how we should be nice to strangers. The majority of Christians would agree, but add the caveat that only if the strangers aren't faggots.

See how shit can be interpreted?

It's amazing! I ask a religious question about religion in the religion section, and no one can give me an answer! Just a bunch of hemming and hawing about how some people are violent and how some people like to kill other people! Fuck, I knew that already. And if I didn't, I don't think I'd be fucking around in the religion subforum looking for an answer.


So, does anyone know what verses of the Koran Muslims use to justify their violence? Anyone?
 
Well I only have a cursory knowledge of the Koran, although from what I have read it does say that Jews and Christians are to be given protection by the law and allowed to practice their religion (as they are considered people of the book), so I'm curious whether unbelievers in the instances you cite refers to any non-muslim or simply not worshippers of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God.

They're allowed to practice their religion so long as they're "made to feel themselves oppressed" (Q 9: 29). This is a point long ignored. The "protection" extended to them lasts, according to a literal reading, only so long as they remain oppressed and suppressed - and there are plenty of both islamic jurists and conservative practitioners ready to take this up exactly at face value. Riots against religious minorities in Pakistan (as well as the ethnic cleansing of non-muslims there), Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Turkey and Iran probably stem from this inherent assumption of supremacy and its liturgical basis; I would suspect this is also the reason that prosetylization of non-muslim religions in dar-al-islam is illegal. I recall some Turks being arrested for it a month or so back; there are abundant other cases, of course.

I do know, however, that even though there may be nothing in the New Testament to condone acts of violence against unbelievers that hasn't stopped Christians (at various times) from acting as if there is.

True. They have no scriptural support for intolerance or violence, however, which in the interest of fairness is something. It can honestly be said that violence by Christians is not condoned by their religious texts.

As for the Old Testament, there may be no injunctions to kill unbelievers but it certainly seems that God encourages violence towards the enemies of Israel. As for Jews murdering people for changing their religion, the Bible says the penalty for having another god before Jehovah is stoning. Now it may be that current interpretation suggests that's the wrong response but its in there in case anyone wants to resurrect it.

True, yet they would have to change recent Jewish religious law to kill anyone who left Judaism; the incidence of samesuch is quite low. Compare this to all four islamic legal schools (Hanafi included) that have, do, and probably will continue to mandate death for apostates (those leaving islam); Hanafi does allow a woman a couple of weeks to change her mind, I think. That or Hanbali. Can't remember. Oddly, this aspect of islamic religious law is normally met with either vigorous defense, tu quoque or avoidance in debate.

So I would still say that you need to consider who is interpreting the text (in this case the Koran) and what social, political, etc. factors are affecting that interpretation. To look at any text without also considering the reader is a mistake if you wish to understand how that text is affecting that person.

This is generally true; yet apostacy, for instance, is illegal the length and breadth of dar-al-islam, and most viciously so in Saudi Arabia, which is also the most affluent state therein. I think that it is also a mistake to assume that social and political factors alone determine religious attitudes. Catholics, for instance, are almost uniformly against abortion, irrespective of their social and economic backgrounds.

So, does anyone know what verses of the Koran Muslims use to justify their violence? Anyone?

Sura 9. Especially Q 9: 5 and 9: 29. Pretty much gives the whole picture, and explains extant socioreligious tolerances (or, rather, their absence) in dar-al-islam, with the exception possibly of Lebanon.
 
As in the Bible, all non believers were exiled, which is far worse than "being opressed"

Point is, extremists of ANY Abrhamic religion would probably want a strict, "harsh" government.
 
Close.
I'm asking what parts of the Koran are interpreted to mean "infidels die now".

For instance, Sam tells me that the story of Lot is a story of how we should be nice to strangers. The majority of Christians would agree, but add the caveat that only if the strangers aren't faggots.

See how shit can be interpreted?

It's amazing! I ask a religious question about religion in the religion section, and no one can give me an answer! Just a bunch of hemming and hawing about how some people are violent and how some people like to kill other people! Fuck, I knew that already. And if I didn't, I don't think I'd be fucking around in the religion subforum looking for an answer.


So, does anyone know what verses of the Koran Muslims use to justify their violence? Anyone?

Anyone can take the Bible, the Torah, or the Qu'ran and justify any action. You just need to "bend the words".


There's nothing to justify what the terrorists do. But, Osama bin Laden is smart (although still evil), he knows how to brainwash his followers into thinking they are fighting for Religion, rather than Politics

Dont' get Religion and Politics mixed up.
 
As in the Bible, all non believers were exiled, which is far worse than "being opressed"

Point is, extremists of ANY Abrhamic religion would probably want a strict, "harsh" government.

Possibly so; yet there are more presently in islam than anywhere else, a situation unchanged for millenia. Further, actual Christian doctrine is nonviolence. These were my points.
 
So, does anyone know what verses of the Koran Muslims use to justify their violence? Anyone?

There was a thread that was locked that had a list of quotes from the Koran, which all basically stated believe or burn. Many of them also detail the demise of unbelievers.

However, that list did not contain any directing Islamic followers to murder unbelievers themselves.

Dont' get Religion and Politics mixed up.

Religion is a political movement. Christianity in particular was invented to control a population.
 
There was a thread that was locked that had a list of quotes from the Koran, which all basically stated believe or burn. Many of them also detail the demise of unbelievers.

However, that list did not contain any directing Islamic followers to murder unbelievers themselves.

Read Sura 9. And 2. Also Q 4: 89-90. Parts of Sura 5. And scattered around, here and there.
 
Try reading the whole Quran sometime. With tafsir. Spend a year in a Muslim community.

And if the tafsir back up the Quran? Can you point out a phrase to me that abrogates Sura 9?

Better yet, try living as a religious minority in Baghdad. Or Egypt. Pakistan. Afghanistan. Go to the street corner and announce your personal apostacy, loudly.

You want to live your religion? Great. Make sure it's not being taken out on anyone else then, please.
 
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