Is it wrong to kill an animal?

[Dudeyhed]

Originally posted by Xevious
LOL You did indeed!

What the hell are you talking about?
Were you trying to say that because I replied, you are right and I am wrong? You're not exactly coming across as highly intelligent, I'll just say that. And I'll emphasise the 'comming across' bit, because I don't know you and won't pretend I do.

In your post folling the apparently senseless 'KILL KILL KILL' post, you imply that because we are able to eat animals due to our anatomy, our canine teeth and the ability of our bodies to digest the meat, that it's ok.

Using your reasoning:
Naturally, I can crush your windpipe using my hands, ending your life. Naturally, I can rip your flesh off your body. Naturally, I can eat your flesh. Naturally, I can digest your flesh. Naturally, it's ok.

On top of that, our body is equipped to do a lot. We can kill babies. We can rape old women. Does that make it ok? Both those acts I described would be, by the majorities, considered despicable, in no way ok. I'm disgusted that I though it up myself. Yet, we are able to do that because of the way we've evolved. It is, without modern intervention, naturally possible. Just because it is possible, doesn't make it anymore acceptable.

 

[Dudeyhed]

Originally posted by Xevious
Hey, who are you to impose your morals on me without the imprical data to back up how it is good or bad for human society?

Mate, no ones been imposing their morals on anyone, except you and a few others who have been giving verbal (since graphic doesn't really apply here) descriptions of how you eat meat in posts that bear little relavence to the topic besides the fact that they represent the eating of animals.

The rest of the thread so far, has only had posts which actually contained 'arguments'. Perhaps you've not familiarised yourself with the concept. That would definietly explain your lack of them.

 

[Dudeyhed]

Re: yes

Originally posted by Jolly Rodger
if it is tring to kill you then it is alright, or you are killing it to eat it, it is alright unless it is a threat to extinction, then you must die, although face withthe situation i would kill the animal to live even if it was the last of its kind in the world.
so in short
if you need to kill it to live (to eat or so you dont get eaten) it is alright!

Fair enough that you have your view, but some supporting arguments would make it more meaningful. And the situation of one's own life being threatened by an animals has been addressed in this thread already. Why don't you go back a few pages, read those posts and then finish this off?

 

[Dudeyhed]

Originally posted by Xevious
I don't think you guys are being serious at all, and if you are I think you guys have some real issues if you don't value other members of your species too well. Psycology has a term for it. It is called psycopaths. By stating that other humans value less to you than other life forms do, you've made yourselves far less trustworthy to other members of society. One is also left wondering how far you would go against your fellow man. That too makes such people dangerous. We simply do not know what they are capable of.

Are you sure about that definition of a psychopath? I remember learning that a psychopath was actually someone who hid their actual personality and had a mask-personality to everyone. Could be wrong.

Why is it more important to value those members of your own species more than another? How does not valuing them make one less trustworthy? Maybe I love my father less than I love my mother. Does that make me untrustworthy for my father? No.

I think that the Dr was saying that the way human society is at the moment, there is no good in trying to make it grow. And rather than truely doing what is 'bad' for human society, s/he'd rather have this destructive system out (and I'm assuming that a more balanced system would be welcomed) than see it continue.

 

[Squashbuckler]

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
Agreed, there is this thing that I believe is called "human society"

And killing animals helps society or teh individual how?

 

[Squashbuckler]

Originally posted by Xevious
I don't think you guys are being serious at all, and if you are I think you guys have some real issues if you don't value other members of your species too well. Psycology has a term for it. It is called psycopaths. By stating that other humans value less to you than other life forms do, you've made yourselves far less trustworthy to other members of society. One is also left wondering how far you would go against your fellow man. That too makes such people dangerous. We simply do not know what they are capable of.

What the hell are you talking about? Im talking about compassion towards fellow humans and animals.
Everyone is is ripping apart my ideas on that.
If pain is "bad", and i think everyone agrees. Then why is it ok to mass murder cows, but killing one human is oh so wrong?
An animal feels pain the same way a human does.

 

[Xevious]

You ought to be reminded that loyalty and goodness to others is the cure for most of societies ills. It is the lack of respect and belief in other humans which causes a large majority of societies problems, like prejudices, genocide, stealing, ect. To witdraw from human society only makes you an enemy of it. If someone is severely hurt and you do nothing, you will be judged by your fellow humans. Nature has no such sense of justice. They call it manslaughter in court if you contribute in some way to a persons dearth and you are not directly responsible. However, we humans have the ability look upon other humans not with hatred, but with pity to poor souls who have had terrible life experiences. Nature I promise you, would never give you such a benefit of the doubt.

Oh, and there is one major paradox in your beliefs. You currently live in a free and open society, and only in such a society could you possibly advocate the destruction of that society without being penalized for it. In other words, human society is giving you permission to speak against it at the moment. Many regimes are far less kind. Don't push your luck buddy. Freedoms abused are taken away when leaders see opportunity to consolidate their power.

 

[Dudeyhed]

Originally posted by Squashbuckler
And killing animals helps society or teh individual how?

I think that you will find that Dr Lou Natic is generally against killing animals. The Dr was refering to Xevious' post first, not yours.

What the hell are you talking about? Im talking about compassion towards fellow humans and animals.
Everyone is is ripping apart my ideas on that.
If pain is "bad", and i think everyone agrees. Then why is it ok to mass murder cows, but killing one human is oh so wrong?
An animal feels pain the same way a human does.

I'm not trying to insult you, but Xevious was refering mostly to Dr Lou Natic's post. Also, your point has been raised previously in the thread. In fact, most of the arguments against killing animals has been based on this. Have you actually read the rest of the thread? If you haven't, then it would be best if you did, just so that you don't end up repeating what has already been said.

 

[Squashbuckler]

SOCIETY

Society will be fine if we show more compassion.
wanting to "break down society" will not work.
We all must collectively work together to make it a better place.
Ripping it all down then starting again is not a good idea.
Maybe giving your computer a clean windows install is a good idea, but sometimes there are things that are worthwhile to keep.

What we need is some serious ASHAMPOO!

 

[Xevious]

Let me clarify in summary, what I've been trying to say.

And killing animals helps society or teh individual how?

Simple. Killing an animal for food provides the nourishment to help you live. Killing to eat is part of nature.

Killing for sport was the original question of this post, and it was one I answered. If you kill a huge buck with this magnificent rack, I don't see what is wrong with that as long as you EAT the darned thing! Sure, go ahead and put that rack on the wall. Just be sure that the rest of it didn't go to waste.

I'll apoligize if I've come off as a hunting type... but I have known of people in College who were so zealous for nature that they would be willing to actively hurt or kill people to protect it. It is understandable, but it also makes such people untrustable. How do I know that if I do something that offends them, I won't be next?

 

[Dudeyhed]

Originally posted by Xevious
You ought to be reminded that loyalty and goodness to others is the cure for most of societies ills. It is the lack of respect and belief in other humans which causes a large majority of societies problems, like prejudices, genocide, stealing, ect. To witdraw from human society only makes you an enemy of it. If someone is severely hurt and you do nothing, you will be judged by your fellow humans. Nature has no such sense of justice. They call it manslaughter in court if you contribute in some way to a persons dearth and you are not directly responsible. However, we humans have the ability look upon other humans not with hatred, but with pity to poor souls who have had terrible life experiences. Nature I promise you, would never give you such a benefit of the doubt.

Oh, and there is one major paradox in your beliefs. You currently live in a free and open society, and only in such a society could you possibly advocate the destruction of that society without being penalized for it. In other words, human society is giving you permission to speak against it at the moment. Many regimes are far less kind. Don't push your luck buddy. Freedoms abused are taken away when leaders see opportunity to consolidate their power.

I never said that I hated everybody in our society and frequently wished them ill-will. No way. Of course, I want what is best for society. But at the same time, I want what is best for nature. This thread isn't really where this should be discussed but I'll tell you what my beef with society is.

Society is destroying itself. It is destructive, in so many ways. The world is overpopulated. Due to this, humans themselves are destroyed as well as habitat. Forests are cut down, plains are cleared, food sources are exploited, all as a result of this overpopulation. We can't doubt the importance of ecosystems. We depend on stable ecosystems to continue to survive. That is we, as in SOCIETY. Yet, the way society is at the moment, we destroy that which we need most. I don't mean to misrepresent Dr Lou Natic but I think that s/he meant that s/he does not see what is 'good' for human society as what it thinks is good.

I agree with Swashbuckler in that compassion would help society.

But lets leave this whole society thing here.

*Points to title of thread*

 

[Dudeyhed]

Originally posted by Xevious
Killing an animal for food provides the nourishment to help you live. Killing to eat is part of nature.

What did you have to say about the parallel I drew to me eating you? You'd provide me with nourishment to help me live. Nature allows it, but I don't think you would.

If you kill a huge buck with this magnificent rack, I don't see what is wrong with that as long as you EAT the darned thing! Sure, go ahead and put that rack on the wall. Just be sure that the rest of it didn't go to waste.

I see where you're coming from but I don't agree. Mainly because you haven't properly justified killing the animal in the first place.

I'll apoligize if I've come off as a hunting type... but I have known of people in College who were so zealous for nature that they would be willing to actively hurt or kill people to protect it. It is understandable, but it also makes such people untrustable. How do I know that if I do something that offends them, I won't be next?

Those people sound a bit on the tipsy side but it is understandable.

 

[Squashbuckler]

common knowledge

I think its common knowledge that grain is much more effective in feeding this planet than meat.

Grain- people

OR..


Grain- animals(waste products) - meat

Cows produce more waste than all of the U.S citizens!

why waste grain on cows, then eat the cow ?
Why not eliminate the middle man(or cow)

 

[Dudeyhed]

Re: common knowledge

Originally posted by Squashbuckler
I think its common knowledge that grain is much more effective in feeding this planet than meat.

Grain- people

OR..


Grain- animals(waste products) - meat

Cows produce more waste than all of the U.S citizens!

why waste grain on cows, then eat the cow ?
Why not eliminate the middle man(or cow)

This wasn't so common to some...
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17999&perpage=20&pagenumber=4
read the first post and the ones that followed down to Weiser_Dub's.

 

[Squashbuckler]

Re: Re: common knowledge

Originally posted by Dudeyhed
This wasn't so common to some

just like so many other things.

 

[mountainhare]

What did you have to say about the parallel I drew to me eating you? You'd provide me with nourishment to help me live. Nature allows it, but I don't think you would.

That was a poor comparison.
Why are humans so successful? Because they are civilized. Natural selection has little effect on us because we DON'T kill each other (well, not often, anyway). If we went around killing each other for food, civilization as we know it would collapse. Chaos would ensue. If everyone was murdering each other, do you think that humans would be such a successful species. Would anyone feel safe if they knew someone was out to eat them?
You know, I wouldn't mind having a taste of a human burger....

I see where you're coming from but I don't agree. Mainly because you haven't properly justified killing the animal in the first place.

Food. Sport.

If pain is "bad", and i think everyone agrees. Then why is it ok to mass murder cows, but killing one human is oh so wrong?

If I was a cow, I would see the murder of another cow as oh so wrong. But I'm not a cow. I'm a human. I side with my own species. A cow means nothing to me.
Why do you care so much about a cow? Everything that lives dies. We are merely making a cow's life (which is insignificant) slightly shorter. I find it ridiculous that you get upset when you hurt bugs. Sure, I don't kill bugs either. It serves no real purpose. But they have such a short life span, and are so primitive. How can you feel sorry for an insignificant speck?
The cow will die anyway. Its life means nothing. It will contribute nothing to the world. Also, I must admit, I am rather self-centered. I want what is best for ME. This may sound rather low, but is there really anything wrong with putting yourself first? I enjoy eating meat. So I do. I don't incur any negative consequences. And the animal is of no importance. It does not suffer.
I am against animal cruelty. But against animal death? Nope.

 

[Xevious]

mountainhare has this nailed pretty well, I think.

 

[Dudeyhed]

Originally posted by Xevious
mountainhare has this nailed pretty well, I think.

I don't.

Originally posted by mountainhare
That was a poor comparison.
Why are humans so successful? Because they are civilized. Natural selection has little effect on us because we DON'T kill each other (well, not often, anyway). If we went around killing each other for food, civilization as we know it would collapse. Chaos would ensue. If everyone was murdering each other, do you think that humans would be such a successful species. Would anyone feel safe if they knew someone was out to eat them?
You know, I wouldn't mind having a taste of a human burger....

If we went around killing each other for food, civilization as we know it would collapse. What a pity. Because civilization as we know, where some kids sleep on the streets because they have no money or house, where poor get poorer, where the rich get richer, is such a great thing. We wouldn't want anything to happen to it now would we? And you completely missed the point mountainhare. I was posting that in reference to what xevious said first, saying that we were naturally able to kill and digest animals and claiming that that was justification. I was just pointing out that the same logic was applicable to humans. I wasn't promoting a rampage of canibalism, just like you wouldn't promote a rampage of cow eating.

Humans a successful species? Humans do things worse than kill each other. We undermine each other, we exploit each other, we let little children starve while fat men each a meal for ten, we destroy education systems. And we do all this knowingly. Human are not all that you seem to think they are. Just look at Nazi Germany, a whole nation.

I don't feel safe knowing that some people are out to take all my money and would be happy to see me working my ass off to eat a loaf of bread for the day. Humans generally are not good.

Food. Sport.

Perhaps you need to look the meaning of "justify" up in a dictionary.

If I was a cow, I would see the murder of another cow as oh so wrong. But I'm not a cow. I'm a human. I side with my own species. A cow means nothing to me. Why do you care so much about a cow? Everything that lives dies. We are merely making a cow's life (which is insignificant) slightly shorter. I find it ridiculous that you get upset when you hurt bugs. Sure, I don't kill bugs either. It serves no real purpose. But they have such a short life span, and are so primitive. How can you feel sorry for an insignificant speck? The cow will die anyway. Its life means nothing. It will contribute nothing to the world. Also, I must admit, I am rather self-centered. I want what is best for ME. This may sound rather low, but is there really anything wrong with putting yourself first? I enjoy eating meat. So I do. I don't incur any negative consequences. And the animal is of no importance. It does not suffer.
I am against animal cruelty. But against animal death? Nope.

Everything that lives dies: that includes you.
Merely making a cows life shorter? I could make your life shorter mate.
And you see cows and bugs as insignificant? You only show that you are uninformed. Can you explain to me how any organism is insignificant? Have you heard of the term ecosystem? In involves the interaction and interdependant systems of biotic and abiotic elements operating together. No organism lives outside an ecosystem. Tell me how a cow or a bug are insignificant.
Animal does not suffer? Did it tell you? CALL ALL THE SCIENCE MAGINZINES IN THE WORLD! IT'S A BREAKTHROUGH! Wow, for all we new all this time, animals had emotions too! Damn, how ignorant we were to think that.
Nice to know that you're against animal crulety.

 

[mountainhare]

If we went around killing each other for food, civilization as we know it would collapse. What a pity.

Do I detect some sarcasm?

where some kids sleep on the streets because they have no money or house,

Most of these kids are adopted or placed in foster homes. But even in the best civilization, we can't find homes for every kid.

where poor get poorer, where the rich get richer,

What a load of bs. If you work hard, you become rich. Bill Gates started off poor.
In our fine civilization, everyone has the chance to go to school, get a job, and achieve their goals. Only lazy, gullible, pathetic idiots get 'poorer'. Sure, our civilization ain't perfect. We aren't 'gods'. But we live in a democracy, where you have a right to free speech, and the right to have access to basic essentials. Such as food, water, and medicine.

Humans a successful species? Humans do things worse than kill each other. We undermine each other, we exploit each other, we let little children starve while fat men each a meal for ten, we destroy education systems. And we do all this knowingly. Human are not all that you seem to think they are. Just look at Nazi Germany, a whole nation.

Humans are a successful species. We occupy almost every location on the Earth. We have invented machines, landed on the moon, and have discovered how the world works. We can comprehend our past on future. No other animal can do that.
We have tamed every animal on the Earth. We are even winning the war against disease. And one day we will conquer death. We are a successful species. Humans aren't perfect, but they are successful. It is treasonous for you to hate your own species so much.

I don't feel safe knowing that some people are out to take all my money and would be happy to see me working my ass off to eat a loaf of bread for the day.

Let me guess. You live in Afghanistan?

Can you explain to me how any organism is insignificant?

It does nothing to affect my life, or the lives of my fellow species members.

Have you heard of the term ecosystem? In involves the interaction and interdependant systems of biotic and abiotic elements operating together. No organism lives outside an ecosystem. Tell me how a cow or a bug are insignificant.

Insignificant if they can be removed from the ecosystem and this does not cause the breakdown or degeneration of that ecosystem. Tell me, how does removing a cow from a HUMAN MADE ecosystem affect it? Come on. Humans made the ecosystem with which we farm cows. We can remove cows from the ecosystem to no effect. They are insignificant.

Wow, for all we new all this time, animals had emotions too!

So? What's your point? Just because I have emotions means I'm not allowed to die?

 

[fractal_choice]

Hello vegetarians,

If I was a herbivore, I would not eat meat. You do not eat meat, you are a herbivore. I eat meat therefore I am not.

I am an animal, and just like many other animals, I eat meat.

Humans have always eaten meat. You can try and pretend this didn't happen (well there may be some exceptions such some regions in India where the people have never eaten meat), but the fact is, meat has been an essential part of a human's diet throughout the ages.

I am disturbed at people who try to liken animals to humans because it lowers a human's value. And I know the response will be "but eating meat lowers the value of an animals life" Damn straight it does - logically they do not have the same value as us. (insert rebuttal here)

A challenge to all serious vegetarians: Do you like George Bush?

If yes:
Does a cow have more value than a human American soldier or a human Iraqi civilian?

Or else if you don't like Bushy:

Did you know that it has been scientifically verified by many studies that when a vegetable is killed, the electromagnetic field surrounding that plant actually changes? Is this not cruel?

All vegetarians who are vegetarian upon the premise of loving animals should consider becoming fruitarians. That is, eating only the fruit that falls off trees or parts of plants that can be replaced easily.