Is it right to put people first?

I googled it and the most common use of the term "intrinsic value" is in a thing's value to humans. James's "equal consideration" denies such consideration to humans.

It is necessary for humans to eat foods that come from animals or so close that it makes no difference. Those who say otherwise haven't demonstrated scientific competence or good manners, and their bad manners are their usual weapon against dissenters. They are also prone to violence.
 
MetaKron:

I don't have to accept the definition that you wrote, and your definition isn't what most people use as the definition.

It's essentially the same as the definition most moral philosophers use, including the ones at Stanford who wrote your link.

The intrinsic value of stock, precious metals, or commodities is commonly defined as the worth that people can get from those things.

Moral philosophers use the term in a completely different way - the way I defined it. And this thread is a thread on moral philosophy.

You went with some interpretation of this idea that certain philosophers have worked out over the centuries:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/value-intrinsic-extrinsic/

Correct. And you did not.

In relation to the rights of animals you place "intrinsic worth" in the realm of things that only special people can see, like the people who could see that the emperor was in fact wearing a fine new set of clothes.

Well, only people who have a moral sense, perhaps.

In other words, just because an animal has intrinsic value does not mean that I should not eat it.

Correct. But you should not eat it unless you can show that eating it is morally necessary or at least permissible. Which you have not.


Baron Max:

Having humans define their own "value" is sorta' like asking convicted criminals to set their jail sentences! :D

Who else is going to do it?

A human has "value" only if he is productive for his society (usually referring to his "immediate" and personally-social group).

This is one possible view, but it denies [enc]intrinsic value[/enc]. What you are talking about is extrinsic value - the value somebody has as a means to an end, in this case of "his society". Intrinsic value, on the other hand, refers to the value he has as an end in himself.
 
(Baron Max): "A human has "value" only if he is productive for his society (usually referring to his "immediate" and personally-social group)."

This is one possible view, but it denies intrinsic value. ...

The statement itself does not "deny" intrinsic value ...it simply doesn't mention it in one way or the other.

Intrinsic value, on the other hand, refers to the value he has as an end in himself.

Just like so many such philosophical ideals ...just saying it doesn't make it true! That's one thing that's always bothered me about psycho-babble ...those people make statements, then people automatically begin to believe it ...and post in on Internet websites as if it's some absolute truth! It ain't ...it's just someone's idiotic ideals about the violent, greedy, hateful, prejudiced, biased, ....., humans!

Baron Max
 
James, this "moral sense" is too often like the emperor's new clothes or the invisible pink hamster orbiting Uranus.

I showed you the Stanford link explicitly because that is the one that I found that supported your definition. If you google "intrinsic value" most of the definitions that come up are what I said, the value of an item to human beings, generally cash value. "Philosophers" take the same term and use it to mean exactly the opposite of the usual use of that term, which is hardly surprising. People don't understand philosophy when they are not fluent in gibberish.

At least 90 percent of the world accepts the fact that it is morally permissible to eat animals and animal products. I can't even accept the idea that there are good reasons for the animal rights side because the animal rights side uses reason, morality, science, and the law in bad faith, thus it has already taken itself out of that game. They have caused their own problems to create disqualification after disqualification.

Eating meat fulfills legitimate human needs. Having alternatives does not make it less legitimate or less moral.
 
If you google "intrinsic value" most of the definitions that come up are what I said, the value of an item to human beings, generally cash value.

That's extrinsic value, as I explained.
 
That's extrinsic value, as I explained.

Yeah, and "intrinsic" value is when we stand up and beat our own chests and holler out to the world "I am the greatest!" Right? Right, James? :D

And what, James, ....if we do that enough times, then that makes it right? :)

Baron Max
 
Yeah, and "intrinsic" value is when we stand up and beat our own chests and holler out to the world "I am the greatest!" Right? Right, James? :D

And what, James, ....if we do that enough times, then that makes it right? :)

Baron Max

You make a very good point, Max. What about the intrinsic worth of a human being?
 
(Baron Max): A human has "value" only if he is productive for his society (usually referring to his "immediate" and personally-social group).

The statement itself does not "deny" intrinsic value ...it simply doesn't mention it in one way or the other.

By saying "A human has "value" only if ..." you are in fact excluding the possiblility of intrinsic value. "Only" makes the proposition exclusive, you don't have to mention it directly.

For example, "only members and their guests may enter" doesn't require you to say "non member uninvited eskimos are excluded" in order to know they aren't allowed in.
 
Since we are not the topic: Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Value
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/value-intrinsic-extrinsic/
(no its not wiki)

What Is Intrinsic Value?
The concept of intrinsic value has been characterized above in terms of the value that something has “in itself,” or “for its own sake,” or “as such,” or “in its own right.” The custom has been not to distinguish between the meanings of these terms, but we will see that there is reason to think that there may in fact be more than one concept at issue here. For the moment, though, let us ignore this complication and focus on what it means to say that something is valuable for its own sake as opposed to being valuable for the sake of something else to which it is related in some way.
...
Is There Such a Thing As Intrinsic Value At All?
...once questions about the concept itself were raised, doubts about its metaphysical implications, its moral significance, and even its very coherence began to appear.
...
How Is Intrinsic Value to Be Computed?
In our assessments of intrinsic value, we are often and understandably concerned not only with whether something is good or bad but with how good or bad it is. Arriving at an answer to the latter question is not straightforward. At least three problems threaten to undermine the computation of intrinsic value.
First, there is the possibility that the relation of intrinsic betterness is not transitive ... Second, there is the possibility that certain values are incommensurate ... There is a third, still more radical threat to the computation of intrinsic value. ... the intrinsic value of a whole must not be assumed to be the same as the sum of the intrinsic values of its parts.

What Is Extrinsic Value?
... intrinsic value had been characterized as nonderivative value of a certain, perhaps moral kind, extrinsic value was said more particularly to be derivative value of that same kind. That which is extrinsically good is good, not (insofar as its extrinsic value is concerned) for its own sake, but for the sake of something else to which it is related in some way.
Two questions arise. The first is whether so-called extrinsic value is really a type of value at all...Why talk of “extrinsic value” at all, then? The answer can only be that we just do say that certain things are good, and others bad, not for their own sake but for the sake of something else to which they are related in some way. To say that these things are good and bad only in a derivative sense, that their value is merely parasitic on or reflective of the value of something else, is one thing; to deny that they are good or bad in any respectable sense is quite another. The former claim is accurate; hence the latter would appear unwarranted.
...
If we accept that talk of “extrinsic value” can be appropriate, however, a second question then arises: what sort of relation must obtain between A and Z if A is to be said to be good “because of” Z? It is not clear just what the answer to this question is. Philosophers have tended to focus on just one particular causal relation, the means-end relation.
...
One final point. It is sometimes said that there can be no extrinsic value without intrinsic value. This thesis admits of several interpretations. First, it might mean that nothing can occur that is extrinsically good unless something else occurs that is intrinsically good, and that nothing can occur that is extrinsically bad unless something else occurs that is intrinsically bad. Second, it might mean that nothing can occur that is either extrinsically good or extrinsically bad unless something else occurs that is either intrinsically good or intrinsically bad. On both these interpretations, the thesis is dubious.
 
Personally I feel intrinsic values should be so fundimental that they are found by example in things which have no actual concept of value, so continued existence/freedom from damage, food/resperation/excretion and reproduction. Other than those I think its really hard to make the case for intrinsic value being anything other than personal preference for some things and personal dislike for others.

Also I see no way to put a quantitative or qualitative valuation on these "values" such that it would be reasonable to wonder if there is any possible means of considering them beyond the mere fact that they seem inherantly valued by all life.

Finally I should note that the above article doesn't consider that extrinsic value could be ungrounded. For example you might have value to the group even though the group itself has value only in its support of its members. While some might regard this as "circular," I consider this a dynamic feedback system.
 
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Let me paint you a picture:

We have vast expanses of ancient woodland and rainforests.
These places are a fantastic habitat for a diversity of wildlife and plants.
Large areas are cut down, the ecosystems within them collapse.
Even more trees are planted as we need more wood.
The ecosystem that was there before does not reappear magically.

An ecosystem that is two thousand years old is not even a second in grand scheme of life on this planet. Mankind has been around for a million years. Hell the dinosaurs died out MANY MILLIONS of year ago. a Mini ecosystem that is younger than written word, is in the long run completely unimportant to the global ecosystem as it will adapt and adjust in time.
 
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Actually homo has been around 2 million years. We homo sapiens have only been around about 100,000 years give or take a few tens of thousands. You could easily argue that humans recognizable as humans start with the discovery of art 70,000 years ago which is also when we domesticate the dog and are known to have stitched clothing.
 
Baron Max: I think that, sadly, this is beyond you.

Good argument, James! :D

But, as to intrinsic value of humans, tell me this; What is the intrinsic value of, say, Mother Theresa as compared to the world's most vicious murderer?

Perhaps in trying to assign "values" to those, or other such examples, you might come to realize that just saying something doesn't make it true or valid.

See? I'd assign virtually zero value to the vicious murderer. But notice that in doing so, I've also fucked up the whole principle of "intrinsic value" of humans in general.

Go ahead, James, try to find a way, method, to assign "intrinsic value" to those two examples. My curiosity is peaked.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max:

But, as to intrinsic value of humans, tell me this; What is the intrinsic value of, say, Mother Theresa as compared to the world's most vicious murderer?

Equal.

See? I'd assign virtually zero value to the vicious murderer. But notice that in doing so, I've also fucked up the whole principle of "intrinsic value" of humans in general.

You're still assigning extrinsic value, by assigning the value as you see it. In other words, you're just telling me what you value, and not what is valuable in itself.

As I said, I think this is beyond you.
 
Baron Max: "But, as to intrinsic value of humans, tell me this; What is the intrinsic value of, say, Mother Theresa as compared to the world's most vicious murderer?"

Equal.

Then, James, I just have to say that you're just plain insane. No one, except a dumb-assed psycho-babblist would even dare say something like that.

And I hope you realize, James, that giving everyone the same value, is exactly the same as giving them no value at all.

As I said, I think this is beyond you.

Your condescending attitude, James, practically proves my point. You seem to feel that my value is less than yours for some reason, yet you claim Mother Theresa and the vicious murderers are of the same value.

Baron Max
 
And I hope you realize, James, that giving everyone the same value, is exactly the same as giving them no value at all.

You're still stuck on the idea that you give value.

I'm talking about intrinsic value - the value that things have in and of themselves.

Get it yet?
 
You're still stuck on the idea that you give value.

I'm talking about intrinsic value - the value that things have in and of themselves.

Oh, sure, James. But with everyone having the same "intrinsic value" simply negates the entire idea of value. It's exactly the same as saying nothing!

See? Once again we're stuck with idea/principle of man simply tooting his own horn, then agreeing that it's a wonderful sound. Like a gorilla beating his chest and yelling at the moon to prove he's hot shit. Hmm?

Baron Max
 
Oh, sure, James. But with everyone having the same "intrinsic value" simply negates the entire idea of value. It's exactly the same as saying nothing!

See? Once again we're stuck with idea/principle of man simply tooting his own horn, then agreeing that it's a wonderful sound. Like a gorilla beating his chest and yelling at the moon to prove he's hot shit. Hmm?

Baron Max

That first paragraph proves that you are worth having around, Baron. You do give value.

The value of humans is that we can build more complex and importantly, more functional structures of anything, and keep them going for long periods of time. We have intrinsic worth. We have not only food that other animals value, we have love and safety and medical care.

Animals value their lives, their friends, their comfort, their food, and their health. Humans provide all this. It is a fair exchange to give them a better life in exchange for their meat. Never mind what if they were human, because they are not. What if they are exactly what they are?
 
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