Is it right to put people first?

[Baron Max]

No. I'm not adjusting the murderer's intrinsic value at all by pointing out or even punishing the evil he does.

A priori, a murderer has the same value as any other human being. ...

Odd, really odd. This reminds me of college. One professor states at the very start of his class that everyone will be getting A's, whether they come to class or not, whether they participate or not. So during the year, half the students don't even show up. At the end of the semester, all the students got A's. So, ...of what "value" is a class like that to anyone?

This is what bothers me about this "intrinsic value" ...by James R's definition and discussion, and by giving the same value to everyone, then it's essentially of no value to anyone!

No. Crimes have consequences. That in no way denies intrinsic value to criminals. On the other hand, torturing or mistreating them does.

Huh? First you claim that you don't/can't adjust "intrinsic value", but here you seem to be saying that being a torturer or sadist, he's "denied" that intrinsic value? From all you've said so far, I can't imagine that you typed that correctly, that it's simply a mistake, right?

But even so, I'm still stuck with the problem of ...of what value is this "intrinsic value" if everyone has the same value regardless of who they are or what they do.

Think of it this way; If everyone on Earth has exactly one billion dollars. If so, then of what value is that billion dollars to anyone?

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Baron Max:

This is what bothers me about this "intrinsic value" ...by James R's definition and discussion, and by giving the same value to everyone, then it's essentially of no value to anyone!

No. It means that every person is entitled to some basic rights. These include protections from things like arbitrary imprisonment, torture, being arbitrarily killed, having your property arbitrarily removed without compensation, having rights to natural justice when accused of a crime, etc.

Huh? First you claim that you don't/can't adjust "intrinsic value", but here you seem to be saying that being a torturer or sadist, he's "denied" that intrinsic value?

Yes. Persons have a right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, or to have pain inflicted on them by torture. Thus, torturing a person means you are denying his intrinsic value as a person.

 

[swarm]

Odd, really odd. This reminds me of college. One professor states at the very start of his class that everyone will be getting A's, whether they come to class or not, whether they participate or not. So during the year, half the students don't even show up. At the end of the semester, all the students got A's. So, ...of what "value" is a class like that to anyone?

Those of us who show up learn a lot better with those who just want the grade not wasting our time. Also it seems that we are free to pursue our direct interests. I'd say the value of the class is very high.

 

[swarm]

torturing a person means you are denying his intrinsic value as a person.

How can intrinsic value be denied?

 

[James R]

How can intrinsic value be denied?

Well, "ignored" may be a more appropriate word.

 

[Baron Max]

It means that every person is entitled to some basic rights. These include protections from things like arbitrary imprisonment, torture, being arbitrarily killed, having your property arbitrarily removed without compensation, having rights to natural justice when accused of a crime, etc.

And yet those very things happen daily all over the planet. So I just have to ask ....just who grants all these "rights", and who enforces them?

Or is this just one more of those "idealisms" that peope talk about, but do nothing about when they're violated? I.e., more hot air thrown about by elitist humans who are already so egocentric that it borders on insanity.

Yes. Persons have a right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, or to have pain inflicted on them by torture. Thus, torturing a person means you are denying his intrinsic value as a person.

That sounds weird! If a person's intrinsic value is ...well, intrinsic, then nothing can "deny" those values. From your earlier statements, even a person who's tortured half to death, still retains his intrinsic value ...ie., nothing but death can take that value away from him.

Nope, sorry, James. This is just one more of that long list of philosophical ideals that are just something to talk about, but mean little in the reality of the world.

Without the power to enforce the idealistic human rights, there are no human rights. And once again, it's the power of the gun that's important, not the hot air of the psycho-babblists.

Baron Max

 

[MetaKron]

Well, "ignored" may be a more appropriate word.

"Swindled" is an even better word.

 

[James R]

“
Max:

And yet those very things happen daily all over the planet. So I just have to ask ....just who grants all these "rights", and who enforces them?

Nobody said everybody acts morally all the time. Clearly, they do not.

The fact is, many millions of people are working for a moral moral society, all the time.

That sounds weird! If a person's intrinsic value is ...well, intrinsic, then nothing can "deny" those values. From your earlier statements, even a person who's tortured half to death, still retains his intrinsic value ...ie., nothing but death can take that value away from him.

Correct. See post #165, where I addressed this point.

Without the power to enforce the idealistic human rights, there are no human rights.

Are you unable to distinguish between having a right and having that right respected?

 

[Baron Max]

Are you unable to distinguish between having a right and having that right respected?

No, James, not at all. What I have a major problem with is ....where the fuck do "rights" come from?

I mean, it seems to me that all you have to do is to SAY that humans have some "rights", but ....is everything that you (or whoever says it) always correct? If I start spewing forth other "rights", does that make them real?

Another major problem I have is this ....if you, or anyone who is so adamant about "human rights", believe in the theory of evolution, then how can "human rights" be anything but an egotistical, egocentric, elitist pile of bullshit? Since humans evolved from other animals, then.....? Why should we have all those rights, but animals not have them? See? Where did they come from?

Or am I more right than wrong ....that human rights come from the muzzle of a gun. Whoever has the most power, can name a bunch of "human rights"?

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Max:

What I have a major problem with is ....where the fuck do "rights" come from?

A right is an interest recognised by law.

Laws come from governments. In a democracy, the people (through their representatives) make laws.

I mean, it seems to me that all you have to do is to SAY that humans have some "rights", but ....is everything that you (or whoever says it) always correct? If I start spewing forth other "rights", does that make them real?

Not unless you get general agreement about them, and appropriate laws passed.

For example, see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Another major problem I have is this ....if you, or anyone who is so adamant about "human rights", believe in the theory of evolution, then how can "human rights" be anything but an egotistical, egocentric, elitist pile of bullshit? Since humans evolved from other animals, then.....? Why should we have all those rights, but animals not have them? See? Where did they come from?

Non-human animals have some rights too. They ought to have more.

Or am I more right than wrong ....that human rights come from the muzzle of a gun.

Once again, you're mixing up rights and power. They aren't the same thing.

Whoever has the most power, can name a bunch of "human rights"?

They can do what they like. That doesn't mean that anybody will agree with them.

Have you noticed that there has been, historically, great resentment of dictators, despite their many guns and secret police forces?

Ever wondered why?

 

[MetaKron]

He's not putting much on the table, is he, Max?

Animals have the right to use each other and to eat each other. Humans are entitled to at least as much right as the other animals are, and our greatness means something. I have tried to explain the fact that humans can compensate for what we take, and even make things better overall and increase the numbers of other animals on the planet, and it's like talking to a wall.

We should never treat something like this like it's up in the air. I have already decided that I will be a meat-eater, a raiser of livestock, and a breeder. Even getting into these conversations runs the risk of being treated as if my convictions are nothing, as if there is something wrong with me if I stick to them, and there is some risk that I might buy into some of it today, a little more tomorrow. This is why I have convictions and I stick to them. One good thing about my method is that animal rights activists don't know what they are dealing with.

 

[Baron Max]

A right is an interest recognised by law.
Laws come from governments. In a democracy, the people (through their representatives) make laws.

And all of it came about through the power of the gun! And as importantly, those rights are protected every day by the power of the gun. Every day, there are people who try to take rights away from people ...and the power of the gun restores or protects those rights. Every day, James, every single day, all over the world.

The USA was carved out of the wilderness with the power of the gun. The British oppressed the Americans, so the Americas used the power of the gun to revolt and form their own nation! Using the power of the gun, that nation outlined basic human rights, and protected those rights with the power of the gun.

In WW II, Hitler stole ...yes, James, stole... those human rights from the French with the power of the gun. Then the Allies, using the power of the gun, gave the French back their human rights. Yes, James, we GAVE the French back the stolen rights!

In the USA, the power of the gun retored the stolen human rights of the oppressed, enslaved African blacks. In the 60's, the power of the gun forced the segragationalists to stop denying those same blacks their human rights.

Every day, criminals steal or abuse the human righs of others. And it's through the power of the gun that those same rights are restored.

Everywhere you look, James, the power of the gun is the only thing standing in the way of your precious rights being taken or stolen or abused. Yes, James, those same hard, rough men that you seem to denigrate regularly, are the very ones who protect your rights ...which were given to you in the first place with the power of the gun.

Once again, you're mixing up rights and power. They aren't the same thing.

You're right, James, but it's not me that's mistaken ...it's YOU. Your precious rights are nothing but words ...UNTIL... hard, rough men subdue a wildernes and hand you those rights! Yes, James, "hand" you those rights. You didn't earn them with silly, philosophical words, they were GIVEN to you by hard, rough men who stood up for those rights. And those same hard, rough men continue, every single day, to protect those rights and keep others from taking them away from you. No, James, I'm not mistaken, you are!

Have you noticed that there has been, historically, great resentment of dictators, despite their many guns and secret police forces? Ever wondered why?

Yep, I've wondered ...and now I know. It was through the power of the gun. The oppressed had more and bigger guns than the dictators, or of course, the threat of the power of the gun (peaceful revolution).

Think about it, James, what are those rights without the power of the gun to protect those rights? And if you think you know the answer, then ask people like the Afghanis whose rights were stolen by the Taliban. Or ask the Somalis whose human rights are being stolen from the right now ...with the power of the gun. Or ask the Cubans whose rights were first restored to them, then taken away by the same hard, rough men ...the Castros!

Human rights come from the muzzle of a gun ....and those same rights are protected, everyday, by the power of the gun.

The pen is mightier than the sword ....only so long as the pen is protected by hard, rough men with swords!

Baron Max

 

[sniffy]

Erm humans are animals.

And any animal that uses up the resources faster than it can replace them or find new ones is headed for trouble regardless of what environmentalists, conservatives or Baron Max has to say.

 

[Enmos]

Erm humans are animals dufus.

And any animal that uses up the resources faster than it can replace them or find new ones is headed for trouble regardless of what environmentalists, conservatives or Baron Max has to say.

They somehow don't seem to get that.. or perhaps they don't want to.

 

[Baron Max]

Erm humans are animals.

And any animal that uses up the resources faster than it can replace them or find new ones is headed for trouble regardless of what environmentalists, conservatives or Baron Max has to say.

Interesting observation. And I can only conclude from it that we should be applauding human deaths at every opportunity! There's too many people on the planet as it is, so killing off more humans is a good thing for the human race.

Baron Max

 

[sniffy]

Nobody needs to kill any humans off. If it becomes necessary nature will see to it. It is neither a matter for celebration nor depression as it is entirely beyond the control of humans.

What doesn't kill you and all that....

 

[Baron Max]

Nobody needs to kill any humans off. If it becomes necessary nature will see to it.

So we just allow humans to continue breeding at astronomical rates so that all of the rest of the humans die of slow, painful, agonizing deaths?

Wouldn't it be better to cull the herd at the first signs of trouble? Why wait until all the food and resources are gone before doing anything? Surely that's not logical, is it?

Baron Max

 

[Enmos]

So we just allow humans to continue breeding at astronomical rates so that all of the rest of the humans die of slow, painful, agonizing deaths?

Wouldn't it be better to cull the herd at the first signs of trouble? Why wait until all the food and resources are gone before doing anything? Surely that's not logical, is it?

Baron Max

:bugeye:

 

[MetaKron]

Erm humans are animals.

And any animal that uses up the resources faster than it can replace them or find new ones is headed for trouble regardless of what environmentalists, conservatives or Baron Max has to say.

The conservationists have burned through billions of dollars and have largely been destructive. It's been industry efforts that have made manufacturing cleaner and more power efficient, in spite of the Luddites.

 

[sniffy]

So we just allow humans to continue breeding at astronomical rates so that all of the rest of the humans die of slow, painful, agonizing deaths?

Wouldn't it be better to cull the herd at the first signs of trouble? Why wait until all the food and resources are gone before doing anything? Surely that's not logical, is it?

Baron Max

oh maxy
It's not the humans breeding at phenomenal rates. It's certain humans in certain, you know, developed countries that are using up resources faster than you can say 'the oil's run out'.