Is it right to put people first?

Enmos said:
Ask the likes of Metakron and Pronatalist why they think we are superior.
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I don't need to do that ...if it's not obvious to you that humans are the superior animal on the planet, then there's no hope for you.

Enmos said:
My view is that we should make things better for humans and nature, not just for the humans. By ensuring a healthy environment we are ensuring a better future.
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That's what architects, planners and developers say when they're tearing up land to build another huge development or a humongous shopping mall. That's also the same thing that people say when they tear into surrounding land to build more concrete highways for people to use to get to work, etc.

It's all in how one views things. If you're a tree-hugger, then it's all bad. If you're a developer who stands to make a fortune, then is wonderful. If you're a worker just trying to get to work on time, the concrete highway is a great asset.


It would be foolish to only have your own short term interests at heart without looking at the possible consequences in the future.

Enmos said:
I'm concerned about the damage that is being done to virtually all environments right now, and the possible future impacts of that. I'm not just talking about cutting down a forest. What about global warming, over-fishing, general pollution etc.?
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Humans will adapt ...just like we always have done all throughout history.

Once the planet is completely covered in concrete paving and buildings, then we'll find some other way to produce oxygen. When the planet becomes over-heated, we'll design big airconditioning units to cool us off. When all of the plant and animal life is gone, we'll adapt to eating concrete and steel.

Enmos said:
If you agree with me you should be helping me to talk some sense into people like Metakron and Pronatalist.
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Hell, if they won't listen to reason, just pull out the big guns and force them to live the way you want them to live. That's the human way of doing things ...or haven't you read much history? :D

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
I don't need to do that ...if it's not obvious to you that humans are the superior animal on the planet, then there's no hope for you.



That's what architects, planners and developers say when they're tearing up land to build another huge development or a humongous shopping mall. That's also the same thing that people say when they tear into surrounding land to build more concrete highways for people to use to get to work, etc.

It's all in how one views things. If you're a tree-hugger, then it's all bad. If you're a developer who stands to make a fortune, then is wonderful. If you're a worker just trying to get to work on time, the concrete highway is a great asset.


It would be foolish to only have your own short term interests at heart without looking at the possible consequences in the future.



Humans will adapt ...just like we always have done all throughout history.

Once the planet is completely covered in concrete paving and buildings, then we'll find some other way to produce oxygen. When the planet becomes over-heated, we'll design big airconditioning units to cool us off. When all of the plant and animal life is gone, we'll adapt to eating concrete and steel.



Hell, if they won't listen to reason, just pull out the big guns and force them to live the way you want them to live. That's the human way of doing things ...or haven't you read much history? :D

Baron Max
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lol
I feel I'm more serious about this than you are :p
All I can say it this point is that I hope you don't really mean some of this shit you just said.
 
Enmos said:
lol I feel I'm more serious about this than you are.
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Well, all I can say is ....be serious in one hand, and shit in the other, then check to see which one fills up first. :D

Enmos said:
All I can say it this point is that I hope you don't really mean some of this shit you just said.
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Whether I mean it or not, whether I believe it or not, it should be ONLY whether what I said makes logical sense. I can argue from either side of most any issue, and, indeed, it helps me to see the other side(s) of issues.

I once fought long and hard to save the wild Mustangs on the western plains. We won! Rah, rah! ...then only a couple of years later, those same horses that we "saved" were starving to death because they multiplied so rapidly that they ate all the grass. See? Those same horses that I loved and saved from controlled killing, were now dying a horrible death of starvation. Pretty nice of me, huh? I loved them so much that I effectively killed far more than would have been killed by the hunters ...and worse, the grazing lands were almost ruined for any future herds. Real nice of me, huh?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
I once fought long and hard to save the wild Mustangs on the western plains. We won! Rah, rah! ...then only a couple of years later, those same horses that we "saved" were starving to death because they multiplied so rapidly that they ate all the grass. See? Those same horses that I loved and saved from controlled killing, were now dying a horrible death of starvation. Pretty nice of me, huh? I loved them so much that I effectively killed far more than would have been killed by the hunters ...and worse, the grazing lands were almost ruined for any future herds. Real nice of me, huh?

Baron Max
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I would say that it is the natural way and that it needn't by pretty.
But I suspect that their rapid increase in numbers is due to something else than just natural population growth. Perhaps their natural predators had been wiped out as well ?
 
Enmos said:
I would say that it is the natural way and that it needn't by pretty.
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Well, the truth of the matter is that before we got so stupidly involved, it was all perfectly natural and workable. The horses were allowed to run free as long as they didn't over-populate and eat all the grass. Before that happened, people much smarter than me culled the herds to prevent over-population. Man was the natural predator ...and it worked perfectly on the plains for hundreds of years. Our idiotic ideals took over our ignorant asses and made matters far worse than they were.

Enmos said:
But I suspect that their rapid increase in numbers is due to something else than just natural population growth. Perhaps their natural predators had been wiped out as well ?
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Wolves and cougars were the earlier natural predators. Then man took over for the wolves and cougars. It was perfectly natural ...and me and my idealistic, ignorant, friends fucked it all up.

And perhaps, just perhaps, that's what you'll do if you could make all the changes that you might propose ....even with the best of intentions.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
Well, the truth of the matter is that before we got so stupidly involved, it was all perfectly natural and workable. The horses were allowed to run free as long as they didn't over-populate and eat all the grass. Before that happened, people much smarter than me culled the herds to prevent over-population. Man was the natural predator ...and it worked perfectly on the plains for hundreds of years. Our idiotic ideals took over our ignorant asses and made matters far worse than they were.



Wolves and cougars were the earlier natural predators. Then man took over for the wolves and cougars. It was perfectly natural ...and me and my idealistic, ignorant, friends fucked it all up.

And perhaps, just perhaps, that's what you'll do if you could make all the changes that you might propose ....even with the best of intentions.

Baron Max
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Error number one was eliminating their natural predators.
Error number two was to stop culling them without putting back their natural predators.
I can see what you mean though, but you picked an easy example.
What if we damage an ecosystem so that a natural predator of a potential pest insect dies out ? What if that pest insect then starts to wreak havoc on our crops ?
You can spray poison of course.. which would be another bad idea.
 
Enmos said:
I can see what you mean though, but you picked an easy example.
What if we damage an ecosystem so that a natural predator of a potential pest insect dies out? What if that pest insect then starts to wreak havoc on our crops?
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If you live your life based on "what if's", you'll never get anything done ...good, bad or otherwise.

I'll tell you something else ....if you live your life trying to force others to see things your way, you aren't going to make many friends, nor influence many people.

Life sucks ....enjoy it while you can. :D

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
If you live your life based on "what if's", you'll never get anything done ...good, bad or otherwise.

I'll tell you something else ....if you live your life trying to force others to see things your way, you aren't going to make many friends, nor influence many people.

Life sucks ....enjoy it while you can. :D

Baron Max
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I was hoping I would convince a few people, but I guess that's rather naive.
I don't want to, or can for that matter, force anyone to see things my way though.
 
Enmos said:
I was hoping I would convince a few people, but I guess that's rather naive.
I don't want to, or can for that matter, force anyone to see things my way though.
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Your material and presentation have been unconvincing.
 
Baron and Meta, just so I can understand what you're saying better, what exactly in your own words do you mean by "superior" when you say that?
 
mrow said:
Baron and Meta, just so I can understand what you're saying better, what exactly in your own words do you mean by "superior" when you say that?
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Easy. In the context of this thread: "Human rights, ..., are superior to any rights that (other) animals might have."

Baron Max
 
Enmos said:
Duh.. humans invent these rights.
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Well, ...duh, of course!! :D

Surely you don't think that a bunch of tigers or lions got together and made up those "rights" do you? Naturally we're going to make the "rights" such that we humans come out on top. See? That's just one more valid reason that we're superior ...we make the rules. :D

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
Well, ...duh, of course!! :D

Surely you don't think that a bunch of tigers or lions got together and made up those "rights" do you? Naturally we're going to make the "rights" such that we humans come out on top. See? That's just one more valid reason that we're superior ...we make the rules. :D

Baron Max
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That's exactly why can and should be responsible in our actions. We are in that unique position.
 
Enmos said:
That's exactly why can and should be responsible in our actions. We are in that unique position.
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It is responsible to breed animals and raise meat. What they suffer in the course of that enterprise is necessary suffering. Ethics only forbids unnecessary suffering.
 
I'm talking about when you say that humans are superior. What is your definition of superior in this sense and what do you feel makes humans superior?
 
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