Is it possible for people to freely "behave in a Godly manner"?

[LIGHTBEING]

Of course not. When have you ever heard me claiming to know of any flood?

You haven't(as far as I know) and more to my point, you could not have known (even if it was true )

You say you base everything on experience is why I gave that as an example. You obviously did not experience Noah's Deluge but have an authoritive opinion on it.

That has lead me to say you must base everything on scripture and experience.

What is your beef????

 

[Lori_7]

You haven't(as far as I know) and more to my point, you could not have known (even if it was true )

You say you base everything on experience is why I gave that as an example. You obviously did not experience Noah's Deluge but have an authoritive opinion on it.

That has lead me to say you must base everything on scripture and experience.

What is your beef????

my beef is, please cite where i have given an authoritative opinion on noah's flood.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Is it possible for people to freely "behave in a Godly manner"?

Is it possible that people "behave in a Godly manner" only when they don't have free will?


Provide reasoning and/or evidence (scriptural or other) for or against.

Sure, look at Al Quaida or the Westborough Babptist Church. They don't get much more godly than that.

 

[wynn]

We wouldn't have invented 'God' to make people behave if they were able to behave naturally.

But if God is merely invented, then God is natural - and this implies people are able to behave naturally anyway.

 

[wynn]

What I believe is based on my personal experience alone.

It's not. What you believe is also based on countless experiences of other people, that have been conveyed to you through interacting with them in one way or another.

You can't take credit for your beliefs, nor for your experiences.
For that reason, you also can't really take responsibility for them.

 

[wynn]

If it is possible for people to freely "behave in an unGodly manner", why wouldn't it be possible to do the same in a godly fashion?

It's not clear how either is the case.

In order to recognize whether someone is behaving in a godly manner or not, we would first need to know what "godly" is.
Different theistic religions disagree on the point of what godly behavior is.

 

[wynn]

you are asking if we have free will..

No, I'm not asking that.

 

[lightgigantic]

It's not clear how either is the case.

In order to recognize whether someone is behaving in a godly manner or not, we would first need to know what "godly" is.
Different theistic religions disagree on the point of what godly behavior is.

Its not clear how different understandings of what constitutes godly behavior translates into equally different understandings about whether one can do so freely or not

 

[Lori_7]

It's not. What you believe is also based on countless experiences of other people, that have been conveyed to you through interacting with them in one way or another.

You can't take credit for your beliefs, nor for your experiences.
For that reason, you also can't really take responsibility for them.

you may be projecting, but no other human being is responsible for my experience with god. no human being could have possibly done what god has done to and for me. not even close. god is responsible for that, and all i did was ask. and no one asked for me.

 

[LIGHTBEING]

my beef is, please cite where i have given an authoritative opinion on noah's flood.

Do we really have to do this Lori. Geesh, it may be easier for me to concede and say, ok Lori you win, you don't believe in the Bible or don't base anything on the Bible. But heck, I got nothing to do right at this moment, just drinking my coffee and twiddling my thumbs. Again the search button is your friend. I was using The Flood as one example because it's one of the most famous stories in the Bible and certainly no one alive today could have experienced it.

Here you talk about Noah and how his bloodline is pure and you assert that God will do it again in the last days......How do you know this, were you there? Did you experience it? Or did you look to scripture????
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2071765&postcount=211

Here you assert that there was a near human extinction due to the Flood, you are talking like it's fact, giving an authoritive opinion based on scripture when there is clearly no evidence for a world wide flood. Did you experience this?
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2334228&postcount=127

Here Noah built an Ark because God said so....did you witness this as well or did you perhaps read it somewhere?
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2712627&postcount=222

I've also heard your desires and wishful thinking that humanity will suffer the same fate as in the days of Noah - quite disturbing but more to my point, you would never have this revelation with out the Book of Revelation.

Please let's end this already.......................

 

[wynn]

you may be projecting, but no other human being is responsible for my experience with god. no human being could have possibly done what god has done to and for me. not even close. god is responsible for that, and all i did was ask. and no one asked for me.

You didn't even create the language (ie. English) you are using, you got it from other people.
The word "God", you have learned it from other people, too.

 

[wynn]

Its not clear how different understandings of what constitutes godly behavior translates into equally different understandings about whether one can do so freely or not

If godly behavior is part of our true nature, then godly behavior is not within the scope of free will, as we are bound to behave godly (at least eventually).

If godly behavior is not part of our true nature, then godly behavior is within the scope of free will, although then the question is why and how we would choose to behave in a manner other than that which is in line with our nature (any behavior that is contrary to our nature, we would experience as suffering).

If our true nature is empty or chaotic, then it is not clear how we can choose in any sensible way, so in that case, it would be absurd to talk about free will.

If we posit that currently, we are in a state where we are out of touch with our true nature (and so acting by what we consider our intution won't necessarily result in godly behavior), we need to have some kind of reason to believe and recognize that this or that particular behavior (as proposed by various religions) is godly while another is not.

But the idea that currently, we are in a state where we are out of touch with our true nature, also places us at the mercy of anything and anyone.

 

[Lori_7]

You didn't even create the language (ie. English) you are using, you got it from other people.
The word "God", you have learned it from other people, too.

It doesn't matter what language I use or what word I use if any at all, god would still exist, be exactly what it is, and do exactly what it does.

 

[Lori_7]

LB,

You forgot to cite the thread where I brought up a theory about Noahs ark being a DNA lab.

Just because I discuss what's written doesn't mean anything but that. Atheists were discussing what was written too. Reiterating what is written is hardly claiming to be an authority or to have been there and experienced it. Do I see parallels between the Noah story and Revelations? Yes. How could you not? But do I believe we're headed towards an apocalypse because it's written? He'll no. I believe that because of what I've experienced, and I would believe that regardless of what is written. There are many things written in a variety of media that do not agree with my experience. It just so happens the bible does in many many ways. But just so you know, god has used many things including art, music, theater, other people to convey very strong messages to me. I identified with a Hindu goddess. I'm just saying that this isn't as cut and dry as you think it is. You're trying to put me in a box I don't fit in.

 

[wynn]

It doesn't matter what language I use or what word I use if any at all, god would still exist, be exactly what it is, and do exactly what it does.

But your understanding of it all would be different (and thus your actions), simply if you used a different language.

 

[lightgigantic]

If godly behavior is part of our true nature, then godly behavior is not within the scope of free will, as we are bound to behave godly (at least eventually).

If godly behavior is not part of our true nature, then godly behavior is within the scope of free will, although then the question is why and how we would choose to behave in a manner other than that which is in line with our nature (any behavior that is contrary to our nature, we would experience as suffering).

If our true nature is empty or chaotic, then it is not clear how we can choose in any sensible way, so in that case, it would be absurd to talk about free will.

If we posit that currently, we are in a state where we are out of touch with our true nature (and so acting by what we consider our intution won't necessarily result in godly behavior), we need to have some kind of reason to believe and recognize that this or that particular behavior (as proposed by various religions) is godly while another is not.

But the idea that currently, we are in a state where we are out of touch with our true nature, also places us at the mercy of anything and anyone.

then that is not so much a quibble about managing the scope of what constitutes godly behaviour but a question about whether we actually have free will or not

 

[LIGHTBEING]

LB,

You forgot to cite the thread where I brought up a theory about Noahs ark being a DNA lab.

Just because I discuss what's written doesn't mean anything but that. Atheists were discussing what was written too. Reiterating what is written is hardly claiming to be an authority or to have been there and experienced it.

Oh, I think I get it now. You only support and validate the Bible for argument sake and sake of the conversation?

Do I see parallels between the Noah story and Revelations? Yes. How could you not?

Of coarse you do because the writers of Revelations were intimately familiar with the book of Genesis.

But do I believe we're headed towards an apocalypse because it's written? He'll no. I believe that because of what I've experienced, and I would believe that regardless of what is written.

It just so happens that it is written.... coincidence I guess?

But just so you know, god has used many things including art, music, theater, other people to convey very strong messages to me.

You are not the first one to claim this and certainly will not be the last. Doesn't it strike you odd that these claimants have a variety of different messages, voices, understandings and beliefs? And that they all seems to be motivated by desires in one of the many ideologies?

I'm just saying that this isn't as cut and dry as you think it is. You're trying to put me in a box I don't fit in.

I don't think it's really cut and dry because I see people pick and choose all the time but if one had to classify someone that adheres to certain laws, rules and messages handed down by a certain belief system, then one can make a logical conclusion that they follow and believe the Holy Book acknowledged in that system ( perhaps not in it's entirety ).

 

[Insert deity here]

I really do not know why anyone would want to emulate the genocidal Bible God.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

Regards
DL

All one needs is to read the bible to get the idea of how brutal the Christian God fellow is.Which brings up the question, were we created in his image or he created in our image?

 

[wynn]

All one needs is to read the bible to get the idea of how brutal the Christian God fellow is.Which brings up the question, were we created in his image or he created in our image?

Given that there is such a mutual likeness between God and (some of) His creation, it sure is hard to answer your question.

 

[wynn]

then that is not so much a quibble about managing the scope of what constitutes godly behaviour but a question about whether we actually have free will or not

Sure. The two issues are related, though.


Also, your contempt - calling my comments "quibble" - is well noted.