Is Hell a Physical Reality?

[Lawdog]

God indeed rewards those who obey his commands.
Do not dare to stand in judgement of His mysterious Will.
Fear His Supreme Dominion over your soul.
Offer him thanks and recieve his teachings in humility.
Reverence His Sublime Godhead and Awesome Mercy.

It was God's mercy that allowed Him to stop the knife, for it WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST to offer Isaac in sacrifice to appease God. The divine Majesty of God is offended and His Wrath provoked by our Sins. Death is the penalty for Sin. It requires attonement through the blood of sacrifice. Ultimately this was fullfilled on the cross when Jesus offered himself in attonement for Sin.

In the story of Abraham and Isaac, God shows them a Ram which they can use for a sacrifice instead.
The Ram is a sign of the Christ-sacrifice which will come.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

How do you know that? Doesn't the reward come in the afterlife? I haven't heard of anyone returning yet (besides that guy yanked out of heaven by Jesus) and talk about his experiences.

 

[Lawdog]

The Rewards are both now and the afterlife

 

[spuriousmonkey]

What is the reward now? That you get a job you wanted when you pray like in the other thread?

 

[Lawdog]

Yes, you can pray for the job, but He might not give it.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Will God give you a job in an atheist stronghold when you pray for it? (like all capitalist enterprises)

I mean, your son really wants a playstation 2. He can't go on living with a playstation 1.

 

[Lawdog]

No, I do not think he would. Only serious things.
It is better to pray for spiritual gifts, although to ask for material things is not wrong. One should try to imitate Christ.
Please, this is off topic.
Lets try to stay with our meditation on the ABRAHAM story.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

What is a spiritual gift?

 

[Lawdog]

Here is a list of the seven gifts from the Holy Spirit.

Wisdom
Understanding
Counsel
Fortitude
Knowledge
Piety
Fear of the Lord.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

I can get most of them without the help of god too, except the last one. Why should I bother with the last one? It seems the most unattractive one of them all.

 

[Lawdog]

Yes, you can get these, but its like getting a cheap brand with fake
ingredients. If you get them from God they are genuine and more effective.

FEAR OF GOD really means "respect for the things of God: His Church, His ministers, His sacraments, Teachings, etc.
Nevertheless, you would not treat God like some buddy off the street if you met him.

You might even imagine yourself as being so bold, but you would soon loose your inappropriate manners.
For he is a King, and not just any King, He is King of the Universe, and of your Soul.

You should fear his Wrath more than any man, any "big time" power. It is through genuine fear of GOD that we loose the fear of EVIL and POWERFUL men, since we know that compared to God they are a joke.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Have there been studies that show that the gain of these virtues are more genuine and effective when received from God instead of more worldly means such as books?

 

[SnakeLord]

Woody says: I believe all of us are born with a natural need for and knowledge of God. The Bible teaches it.

Your 'belief' is nonsense. Not one child is born displaying any signs that they have a natural need or knowledge of any sky beings - be that gods or dragons. All they care about is boob, nothing more.

Small children typically know God.

No they don't. Not until it is lumped upon them by a disrespectful parent.

Abraham is found worthy before God because He trusted the Lord enough to go as far as he did.

No. Abraham was found worthy because he feared god. Fear and trust are two completely different things.

little children loved Jesus when they saw Him, and they still do.

What babbling crap is that? Little children love the teletubbies when they see it, or winnie the pooh. There is not one child that turns round and says: "weeee, jesus is on TV", unless it has been shoved upon them by a disrespectful parent.

Woody says: You are here on this forum because you have a need for God. Other atheists need God as well, but they just don't want to admit it.

Utter tripe and you know it. Then again you probably don't.

FEAR OF GOD really means "respect for the things of God: His Church, His ministers, His sacraments, Teachings, etc.

No it doesn't. Fear and 'respect' are two completely different things. Fear means fear.

 

[Lawdog]

Have there been studies that show that the gain of these virtues are more genuine and effective when received from God instead of more worldly means such as books?

(no, theres, no way, other than to watch true believers and decide for yourself)

NOTE: The VIRTUES are different. VIRTUES are good habits. (Not the same as GIFTS)
Four virtues you may already have some share of: FORTITUDE, PRUDENCE, TEMPERANCE, JUSTICE.

There are some virtues which only believers have, and these are infused virtues: FAITH, HOPE, LOVE (divine love)

 

[Lawdog]

fear means fear.

OK, then I say FEAR God's power.

That Fear of God WILL FREE YOU from the Fear of Men which enslaves.

FEAR of GOD is appropriate, good, wise and just,
it is within the DIGNITY of Man.

FEAR of GOD is also holy, it gives rise to Trust in the LORD,

it reveals the wonders of worship which you were designed for;
worship is the highest possible act which a person can accomplish.

 

[Woody]

Snakelord: Utter tripe and you know it. Then again you probably don't.

Woody: I'd say there a few exceptions -- you just want a good debate, that's all. But when I bring up grace, you are instantly defeated -- debate over.

Why don't you look up "grace" in a dictionary. You have no argument against it, and I'm not the first to see this.

-----------------------------

S/L: No. Abraham was found worthy because he feared god. Fear and trust are two completely different things.

Woody: Worthy, worthy art thou abraham because Snaklord said thou art a scardy cat?

Bible: Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Woody: So tell me snakelord, what friends are you afraid of? Is your friendship based on fear?

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S/L: What babbling crap is that? Little children love the teletubbies when they see it, or winnie the pooh. There is not one child that turns round and says: "weeee, jesus is on TV", unless it has been shoved upon them by a disrespectful parent.

Woody: Or santa claus even -- he's just there to control the kids at christmas time. I didn't believe it for long anyway, and I was scared of him. I didn't want to sit in his lap.

I didn't feel that way at all about Jesus, we had fellowship when I was quite small. I loved it, but I've already covered that.

 

[Lawdog]

I have a healthy fear of my friend's power.
For example, I have a friend who is a christian and a woodsman.
He owns several high powered weapons and attack dogs.

I fear damaging his property, insulting him badly,
doing evil to his family, and other such things.
This fear helps our relationship.
He probably has the similar fear of me.

Without this fear someone might do something completely stupid.
Nevertheless, if I did offend him,
he would forgive me if I was sorry,
(though he still might blow me away).
Why, because the basis of our friendship is
Christian love.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Lapdog: Worship elevates Man, it brings him into the divine realm. It is not cowering.
*************
M*W: On the other side of the fence, "worship" demeans mankind. It does nothing to "elevate" us! Worshipping anything leads us to addiction and human frailty. Worshipping causes human beings to "cower" down to get whatever it is we addictively need, whether it be money, sex, drugs, rock'n'roll, or god and salvation.
*************
Lapdog: Abraham knew that God would not have him kill his son, as we read, Abraham says before he goes up, "we shall return..."
*************
M*W: Interesting quote, "we shall return...". When AbRAham 'goes up,' this is referring to the sun rising and setting again. I have a problem with any story being credible about "Ab-RA-ham." "Ab" means "father." "Ra" means "Sun God." "ham" is plural. Also, Abraham is another way of writing Hammarabi, as in "Ham" is plural. "ma," is another way of saying "rising sign in the heavens" or "rising Sun God." "ra" again is "Sun God." "bi" is another way of saying "ba," which also means "ba" as in "father," "creator," and "God." It also means "giver of life," and "baba" translated means "portal or gate" as in from one world to the other. The words are translated in Aramaic, not Hebrew where they would mean the same, but be spelled slightly different. For example, "abba" means "father," and "baba" means the "gate" or "portal" that one would take to reach the "abba-father" or the "Sun/Son."

If anyone can speak Hebrew, I'd like to have a comparison of these words.
*************
Lapdog: The purpose of the story is to show that God does not wish men to offer human sacrifice like the Baalites and Moloch worshippers. Abraham is found worthy before God because He trusted the Lord enough to go as far as he did. God stops him, He does not want human sacrifice.
*************
M*W: "Ba'al" translated means "father," "husband," and "al" is synonymous with "el" or another term for "god." Interesting, "el" is also a word form for "helios" "h-EL-ios" or the "Sun." "Helios" then became the "dying and rising god" as well as the place of terminal heat of "hell."

It was mankind who interpreted the movements of the solar system and created the myth of the "dying, rising, sun god," and later, the "son of god," and man's destiny or "hell," to control man's life and learning. Human sacrifice was, of course, not necessary since the sun rose and set each day, bringing "new life" to the world every 24 hours. Anyone of our ancient ancestors who didn't believe in this "new life" were doomed to burn in "helios."

 

[Lawdog]

Interesting notes, Medicine Woman.
El usually means LORD in Hebrew, as far as I learned,
though I am no expert in that tongue.

Helios is Greek. I think its etymology may differ. Hell is Nordic.
You are right about Baal. Baal had a consort divinity, Ishtar?
The Hebrews saw it as a foriegn cult.

The worship of the Sun and Moon was despised by the early monotheists. In truth, it was one of the earliest cults and very widespread. The reason for the survival of monotheistic Hebrew religion is that it would not worship graven images (and therefore be subsumed into the many pagan cults). God was an invisible spirit.
The cults of Adonis, Osiris, and the dying male gods are precursors to the Christ. These cults prepared the meditterranian world for the acceptance of the real sacrificial and soterological religion.

 

[SnakeLord]

OK, then I say FEAR God's power.

What power would that be?

That Fear of God WILL FREE YOU from the Fear of Men which enslaves.

Well with all due respect but I'm an atheist. It's like telling me to fear the awesome might of the king leprechaun. Frankly I find it laughable that anyone would even suggest such a thing. Fear does have it's uses of course, but any 'leader' that would run a system through fear would never be worthy of the attention.

FEAR of GOD is appropriate, good, wise and just,
it is within the DIGNITY of Man.

This statement has no meaning whatsoever. Frankly I find it rather daft.

it reveals the wonders of worship which you were designed for

I wasn't designed.

worship is the highest possible act which a person can accomplish.

No, perhaps the highest possible act which you can accomplish. Do not think you can speak for everyone.

But when I bring up grace, you are instantly defeated -- debate over.

Wtf is this idiocy? The amusing thing is you haven't brought 'grace' up other than to make some vague, naive and sweeping statement about how I've somehow failed to explain this 'grace' business of yours even though when I do try and respond you simply avoid it like the plague.

Now pay attention Woody, because I'm sick of having to drag myself through all this crap for the sake of an incompetent. Are you ready? Ok, here we go..

Woody: Kindly go back to page 9. Go about halfway down and you'll see me make this statement:

"Sure, I have no idea what grace is, explain it to me. I gave you the opportunity to do just that on my last post but you ignored it."

Yes Woody, 2 pages later and you still haven't answered it, even though I have stated it twice in this very thread and given you every bloody opportunity to explain it.

This somewhat reminds me of our last discussion in this very thread.. You remember what I'm on about? How you started some bullshit about churches, to which I said I had no interest in going to church, to which you nagged on for 10 posts only to end up saying exactly what I'd said to you on my very first post.

If you don't take the time to read the posts I make why bother thinking you're in a position to make a reply to them? It's utter stupidity - and you excel at it.

Wake up Woody.

Why don't you look up "grace" in a dictionary.

Three sister goddesses, known in Greek mythology as Aglaia, Euphrosyne, and Thalia, who dispense charm and beauty.

Ooh, Woody now believes in goddesses aswell as gods, demons and perhaps even demonettes. Guess the world truly has gone PC.

You have no argument against it, and I'm not the first to see this.

Well it wouldn't be that bloody hard for others to see it considering I wrote quite clearly on page 9 that:

"Sure, I have no idea what grace is, explain it to me. I gave you the opportunity to do just that on my last post but you ignored it."

Just because you're blind doesn't mean everyone else is. Kindly stop being a dick. While it's certainly an integral part of your personality, it's really starting to annoy. If you cannot take the 5 minutes to read my posts do not bother responding to them. Do I make myself clear?

Would you like me to point it out one last time just in the hopes that we'll be tenth time lucky?

"Sure, I have no idea what grace is, explain it to me. I gave you the opportunity to do just that on my last post but you ignored it."

K?

Woody: Worthy, worthy art thou abraham because Snaklord said thou art a scardy cat?

Amusing as that is, it has nothing to do with what 'Snaklord' or myself said about it, but what the angel speaking on behalf of god had to say on the matter:

"Do not raise your hand against the boy.. Do not harm him, for now I know you fear god." (Gen 22:12)

Bible: Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Kindly provide passage details when speaking from the bible

Woody: So tell me snakelord, what friends are you afraid of? Is your friendship based on fear?

I'm not afraid of any of my friends - although in honesty none of them have told me to kill my child. Of course it would be dependant upon who said he was his friend.