It was God's mercy that allowed Him to stop the knife, for it WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST to offer Isaac in sacrifice to appease God. The divine Majesty of God is offended and His Wrath provoked by our Sins. Death is the penalty for Sin. It requires attonement through the blood of sacrifice. Ultimately this was fullfilled on the cross when Jesus offered himself in attonement for Sin.
Is Hell a Physical Reality?
- Thread starter Lawdog
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This fear helps our relationship.
He probably has the similar fear of me.
That is a perfect example of how religion has ******** the mind to accept fear as a way of life.
Without this fear someone might do something completely stupid
Again, religion forces one to shut off their brains and use fear in their decision-making process.
Why, because the basis of our friendship is
Christian love.
Therefore, Christian love = Fear.
He probably has the similar fear of me.
That is a perfect example of how religion has ******** the mind to accept fear as a way of life.
Without this fear someone might do something completely stupid
Again, religion forces one to shut off their brains and use fear in their decision-making process.
Why, because the basis of our friendship is
Christian love.
Therefore, Christian love = Fear.
All right, I'm going to ignore the God vs. atheist debate and address hell as possibly physical.
Hell as described in the Bible is a place of eternal torment for the lost souls. Dante describes hell as a physical reality that he could walk through. However, there are problems with hell being physical (at least physical as in identical to the physical laws we experience on Earth).
1) Hell is described as fire and brimstone. Brimstone is indeed found around hot geysers, but where does the fire get its fuel? To burn forever, hell would require an infinite amount of fuel and oxygen for the fire. The only infinities that exist in our reality involve black holes and strange warps of spacetime. Even the largest or most efficient stars burn out after a while.
2) Hell is described as infinitely dark. This is impossible if hell also has fire. Fire produces light.
3) Hell is described as separation from God. Since God permeates reality (immanence) hell could not possibly be in the center of the Earth, since God is part of this reality. Hell must be somewhere God does not enter.
4) Hell tortures souls, not physical bodies. To burn a soul, I don't believe physical fire would cut it.
With all of these, hell must be a spiritual kind of existence, as only a supernatural fire could burn forever and produce darkness.
Hell as described in the Bible is a place of eternal torment for the lost souls. Dante describes hell as a physical reality that he could walk through. However, there are problems with hell being physical (at least physical as in identical to the physical laws we experience on Earth).
1) Hell is described as fire and brimstone. Brimstone is indeed found around hot geysers, but where does the fire get its fuel? To burn forever, hell would require an infinite amount of fuel and oxygen for the fire. The only infinities that exist in our reality involve black holes and strange warps of spacetime. Even the largest or most efficient stars burn out after a while.
2) Hell is described as infinitely dark. This is impossible if hell also has fire. Fire produces light.
3) Hell is described as separation from God. Since God permeates reality (immanence) hell could not possibly be in the center of the Earth, since God is part of this reality. Hell must be somewhere God does not enter.
4) Hell tortures souls, not physical bodies. To burn a soul, I don't believe physical fire would cut it.
With all of these, hell must be a spiritual kind of existence, as only a supernatural fire could burn forever and produce darkness.
It was God's mercy that allowed Him to stop the knife, for it WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST to offer Isaac in sacrifice to appease God. The divine Majesty of God is offended and His Wrath provoked by our Sins. Death is the penalty for Sin. It requires attonement through the blood of sacrifice. Ultimately this was fullfilled on the cross when Jesus offered himself in attonement for Sin.
Must you always stand on a soap-box and preach when you can't answer for yourself?
Must you always stand on a soap-box and preach when you can't answer for yourself?
It does say that God will make a new Heaven and new Earth. If thats the case, then Hell might not be located spacially in the Earth.TheMidnight12AM said:
There could be dark fire....? Do you bthink the molten core is a lit up with light from the fire?
Hell is part of God's Creation. Therefore, Hell is an ontological good, as well as an extension of His justice. Separation from God does not mean separation from Being. Those in Hell go there because they cannot abide the brilliance of his Presence.
"FEAR THOSE who can destroy both the body and soul" (ie demons of Hell)-JESUS.
Doctrine teaches that the Ressurrection is a ressurrection of a new body, the blessed ressurrect to blessedness of the Beatific Vision, the evil ressurrect to condemnation and Hell.
LawDog said:
Yes, the core does glow. Magma when released from volcanoes glows red-hot, white hot, etc. The solid rock of the Earth's crust stops the light of the core from "piercing" the ground. So there is light. "Dark fire" as I put it, would be entirely supernatural in nature.
LawDog said:
The lost undergo the second death, not a resurrection. The lost are not entitled to a new body, as I read Revelation, at least. If you can find a verse that says otherwise, please tell me.
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QUALITIES OF THE RISEN BODIES
There is a fourfold condition of all those who shall take part in the resurrection.
(a) The Identity of the Bodies of the Risen.--It will be the same body as it is now, both as regards its flesh and its bones. Some, indeed, have said that it will not be this same body which is corrupted that shall be raised up; but such view is contrary to the Apostle: "For this corruptible must put on incorruption."[7] And likewise the Sacred Scripture says that by the power of God this same body shall rise to life: "And I shall be clothed again with my skin; and in my flesh I shall see my God."[8]
(b) The Incorruptibility of the Risen Bodies.--The bodies of the risen shall be of a different quality from that of the mortal body, because they shall be incorruptible, both of the blessed, who shall be ever in glory, and of the damned, who shall be ever in punishments: "For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality."[9] And since the body will be incorruptible and immortal, there will no longer be the use of food or of the marriage relations: "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the Angels of God in heaven."[10] This is directly against the Jews and Mohammedans: "Nor shall he return any more into his house."[11]
(c) The Integrity of the Risen Bodies.--Both the good and the wicked shall rise with all soundness of body which is natural to man. He will not be blind or deaf or bear any kind of physical defect: "The dead shall rise again incorruptible,"[12] this is to mean, wholly free from the defects of the present life.[13]
(d) The Age of the Risen Bodies.--All will rise in the condition of perfect age, which is of thirty-two or thirty-three years. This is because all who were not yet arrived at this age, did not possess this perfect age, and the old had already lost it. Hence, youths and children will be given what they lack, and what the aged once had will be restored to them: "Until we all attain the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ."[14]
CONDITION OF THE BLESSED
It must be known that the good will enjoy a special glory because the blessed will have glorified bodies which will be endowed with four gifts.
(a) Brilliance.--"Then shall the just shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."[15]
(b) Impassibility (i.e., Incapability of Receiving Action).--"It is sown in dishonor; it shall rise in glory." 16 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and death shall be no more. Nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be anymore, for the former things are passed away."[17]
(c) Agility.--"The just shall shine and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds."[18]
(d) Subtility.--"It is sown a natural body; it shall rise a spiritual body."[19] This is in the sense of not being altogether a spirit, but that the body will be wholly subject to the spirit.
CONDITION OF THE DAMNED
It must also be known that the condition of the damned will be the exact contrary to that of the blessed. Theirs is the state of eternal punishment, which has a fourfold evil condition. The bodies of the damned will not be brilliant: "Their countenances shall be as faces burnt." 20 Likewise they shall be passible, because they shall never deteriorate and, although burning eternally in fire, they shall never be consumed: "Their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched."[21] They will be weighed down, and the soul of the damned will be as it were chained therein: "To bind their kings with fetters, and their nobles with manacles of iron."[22] Finally, they will be in a certain manner fleshly both in soul and body: "The beasts have rotted in their dung."[23]
8. Job, xix. 26. "The identical body which belongs to each one of us during life shall, though corrupt, and dissolved into its original dust, be raised up again to life. . . . Man is, therefore, to rise again in the same body with which he served God, or was a slave to the devil that in the same body he may experience rewards and a crown of victory, or endure the severest punishments and everlasting torments" ("Roman Catechism," "loc. cit.," 7).
9. I Cor., xv. 53
10. Matt., xxii. 30.
11. Job. vii. 10. "To omit many other points, the chief difference between the state of all bodies when risen from the dead, and what they had previously been, is that before the resurrection they were subject to dissolution; but when reanimated they shall all, without distinction of good and bad, be invested with immortality. This marvellous restoration of nature is the result of the glorious victory of Christ over death" ("Roman Catechism," "loc. cit.," 12).
12. I Cor., xv. 52.
13. "Not only will the body rise, but it will rise endowed with whatever constitutes the reality of its nature and adorns and ornaments man. . . . The members, because essential to the integrity of human nature, shall all be restored. . . . For the resurrection like the creation, is clearly to be accounted among the chief works of God. And as at the creation all things came
perfect from the hand of God, so at the resurrection all things shall be perfectly restored by the same omnipotent hand" ("Roman Catechism," "loc. cit.," 9).
14. Eph., iv. 13.
15. Matt., xiii. 43. "This brightness is a sort of refulgence reflected from the supreme happiness of the soul; it is an emanation of the beatitude which it enjoys and which shines through the body. Its communication is like to the manner in which the soul itself is made happy, by a participation of the happiness of God" ("Roman Catechism," "loc. cit.," 13).
16. I Cor., xv. 43
17. Apoc., xxi. 4. "The first is 'impassibility,' which shall place them beyond the reach of pain or inconvenience of any sort. . . . This quality the Scholastics called 'impassibility,' not incorruption, in order to distinguish it as a property peculiar to a glorified body. The bodies of the damned shall not be impassible, though incorruptible; they shall be capable of experiencing heat and cold and of feeling pain." ("Roman Catechism," "ibid.").
18. Wis., iii. 7. "Agility, as it is called, is a quality by which the body shall be freed from the heaviness that now presses it down; and shall acquire a capability of moving with the utmost ease and quickness wheresoever the soul pleases" ("Roman Catechism," "ibid.").
19. I Cor., xv. 44. "Another quality is that of subtility, a quality which subjects the body to the absolute dominion of the soul, and to an entire obedience to her control" ("Roman Catechism," "ibid.").
20. Isa., xiii. 8.
21. "Ibid., lxvi. 24.
22. Ps. cxlix. 8.
23. Joel, i. 17.
Lawdog,
I know you are catholic, and I appreciate your effort and zeal, but biblically speaking there are two resurrections: the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. We agree on that point.
However we have some differences with the catechism vs. the bible.
The bible teaches that the unjust are resurrected to a corruptible body made of flesh and blood.
The bible says the just shall be resurrected to a body like Christ's, and the resurrected body will not be flesh and blood, but it is incorruptible:
I Corinthians 15:50
The resurrection of the just is described here:
I Corinthians 15:52-55:
The unjust are resurrected to the corruption they had while they were alive:
Rev 22:11
The filthy will remain filthy: a junkie will want another fix, an alchoholic will want another drink, a fornicator will want another sex fix, and so on, but they will get no relief. Their sins will remain with them for eternity, and the Lord will render to them according to their works.
The resurrection of the unjust is described as the great white throne judgment:
Rev 20:
They will never have rest, but will be tormented forever. Death and Hell will be in there with them, hence the second death. It is worse than Hell. They will thirst for even a drop of puss soaked water from a leper's fingertip:
Jesus said:
I know you are catholic, and I appreciate your effort and zeal, but biblically speaking there are two resurrections: the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. We agree on that point.
However we have some differences with the catechism vs. the bible.
The bible teaches that the unjust are resurrected to a corruptible body made of flesh and blood.
The bible says the just shall be resurrected to a body like Christ's, and the resurrected body will not be flesh and blood, but it is incorruptible:
I Corinthians 15:50
The resurrection of the just is described here:
I Corinthians 15:52-55:
The unjust are resurrected to the corruption they had while they were alive:
Rev 22:11
The filthy will remain filthy: a junkie will want another fix, an alchoholic will want another drink, a fornicator will want another sex fix, and so on, but they will get no relief. Their sins will remain with them for eternity, and the Lord will render to them according to their works.
The resurrection of the unjust is described as the great white throne judgment:
Rev 20:
They will never have rest, but will be tormented forever. Death and Hell will be in there with them, hence the second death. It is worse than Hell. They will thirst for even a drop of puss soaked water from a leper's fingertip:
Jesus said:
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Q said: If it is really worse than Hell, could Hell actually be tolerable?
Woody says: Hell is not tolerable. But those in Hell will dread the great white throne judgement to come. In hell they live with their sin and are tormented. At the great white throne they are judged for their sin and caste alive into the lake of fire. It appears to be like hell plus judgment. Not a good scenario.
Woody says: Hell is not tolerable. But those in Hell will dread the great white throne judgement to come. In hell they live with their sin and are tormented. At the great white throne they are judged for their sin and caste alive into the lake of fire. It appears to be like hell plus judgment. Not a good scenario.
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Woody, your theology is not much different than mine. Your quotations are not unreasonable, but I think that our quibbling over words will just lead to the devotees of Satan to mock us or divide us. Therefore, let us be allies and continue to work against the false teachings of THIS world, each in our own way, concentrating on essential truths.
Snakelord says: Woody: Kindly go back to page 9. Go about halfway down and you'll see me make this statement: "Sure, I have no idea what grace is, explain it to me. I gave you the opportunity to do just that on my last post but you ignored it."
Woody says: We are currently on page six according to my page counter. I guess my screen monitor is larger than yours.
Since you don't seem to have a dictionary handy I will quote the definition of grace for you:
For additional research I provide this secular reference:
Wikepedia -- the History of Grace Theology
Also to understand grace you need to understand sanctification, again I provide a dictionary definition:
For additional research I provide the secular reference:
Sanctification
I'll get you to the bottom line of this discussion, so hopefully we won't waste words:
Grace trumps the law, grace is not a license to sin, and the law is used to judge sinners not believers.
Christians agree on these points, but you disagree because you apparantly do not understand grace or sanctification. If you refuse those biblical precepts then the rest becomes smorgasboard as you say. I believe in grace and in sanctification, so if we disagree on that, then the discussion is over.
good nuff
Woody says: We are currently on page six according to my page counter. I guess my screen monitor is larger than yours.
Since you don't seem to have a dictionary handy I will quote the definition of grace for you:
For additional research I provide this secular reference:
Wikepedia -- the History of Grace Theology
Also to understand grace you need to understand sanctification, again I provide a dictionary definition:
For additional research I provide the secular reference:
Sanctification
I'll get you to the bottom line of this discussion, so hopefully we won't waste words:
Grace trumps the law, grace is not a license to sin, and the law is used to judge sinners not believers.
Christians agree on these points, but you disagree because you apparantly do not understand grace or sanctification. If you refuse those biblical precepts then the rest becomes smorgasboard as you say. I believe in grace and in sanctification, so if we disagree on that, then the discussion is over.
good nuff
Lawdog: Woody, your theology is not much different than mine. Your quotations are not unreasonable, but I think that our quibbling over words will just lead to the devotees of Satan to mock us or divide us. Therefore, let us be allies and continue to work against the false teachings of THIS world, each in our own way, concentrating on essential truths.
Woody says: Sounds fine to me. If we aren't going to Hell, then why should we quibble over how bad it is? Good enough.
Woody says: Sounds fine to me. If we aren't going to Hell, then why should we quibble over how bad it is? Good enough.
Superluminal says: Learn to use the goddamned QUOTE tags to make reading you posts a much more enjoyable experience for the rest of us.