Is God Real?

Jenyar,

If God is a "placebo", He is one of substance - more significantly, a substance that is indistinguishable from reality itself.
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The point is that a placebo has no active ingredients of its own. In the God case we don’t actually need him to exist to achieve an effect. All that is needed is the mental conviction that he exists. The reality is what the mind creates.

Strangely though it will only be the believers that can obtain positive benefits from this non-existent God, whereas atheists would need a real god to exist to have the same effect.

Personal preference and interpretation then becomes just a different perspective on the same reality.
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Just to be sure you understand: The reality is the real emotional feelings that a God is present and that such a presence generates happiness, purpose, morality, and a productive lifestyle. These are the real experiences that Christians attest to and why they claim a God exists.

What you can’t demonstrate is whether this reality is the result of the placebo effect or a real God. From my perspective we have significant evidence for placebo effects but zero for real Gods.

To discover if God is not a placebo you will need to present some independent evidence that is not connected with your emotional and mental conditioning. And what a surprise, no one can show any such evidence.
 
Originally posted by Flores
You Atheists all remind me of Sesame Street numbering lessons.
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I love Sesame Street.

Originally posted by Flores
Why do Atheists denounce any order or system? Why do Atheists denounce belongness to a creation system?
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I believe that there exists a fundamental unity between all things. For example, I truly believe that neither of us know what you're talking about.
 
Originally posted by Flores
PS. Do you ever why do they use the term universe to describe infinite bounds? Do you ever wonder what uni means?
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The universe probably isn't infinite, though it has no defined borders, to be sure.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Strangely though it will only be the believers that can obtain positive benefits from this non-existent God, whereas atheists would need a real god to exist to have the same effect.
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Being forced into a vanilla existence by the sanctimonious threatenings and petty constraints of an unseen cherubic regime?

Fasting?
Abnegation?
Praying?
Abstinence?

Benefits, Cris? More like . . . burdens.
See in what peace a Christian dies . . . Addison . . . maybe they do die in peace, but they LIVE in suffering, in Grief.

What did Faulkner write? Something like "Given a choice between grief and nothing, I'd choose grief."

Well, that's how the Christians figure it.

As for my atheistic self, I'll always take the nothingness. Why?

Like the rogue, Poiccard, in Goddard's Breathless, I'll take the nothingness, the NO-GOD, 'cause Grief and its God are a compromise.
 
Redoubt,

But Jenyar appears genuinely happy.

Surely it is better to lead a life in the happy and stress free belief that death is wonderful.:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Cris

How do you calculate this probability?

If something has no boundaries then it is infinite.
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Look, cat, I got this from big-bad Stephen Hawking. If you question my blather again, I'm going to call him over here to kick your ass.

Haven't you ever read the globe-universe analogy, Cris?

The globe is finite, but has no edges. Likewise, the universe coulde be finite, but with no walls into which one might run. Kind of "curved," see?
 
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Flores,

What CA said and –

You really do talk utter drivel sometimes.
 
As for Jenyar . . . if he is a true Christian, he must suffer. It's the very nature of the calling. Whereas Atheist Somebody can indulge his every whim, Jenyar is prohibited many of life's pleasures by his Jealous God.

Why do you think the Our Father reads Lead Me not into Temptation . . . Christians feel trepidation, real pain, when faced with temptation; that's why.

Christ didn't offer the easy road; he offered suffering.
You know, Cris, bearing your personal cross and all that jazz.
 
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God as some almighty creator probably does not exist. . .you'd think He'd take a little better care of his creatures.
 
God as some almighty creator probably does not exist. . .you'd think He'd take a little better care of his creatures.
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While I don't adhere to any imaginary god, the idea that a god is 'good' and 'nice' and would create a world without suffering isn't really logical. What may be suffering to you is benefitting something else. The universe is indifferent to you, just as the grilled chicken you stuff into your mouth.

My question for the believers:

If god is real, how is he defined? There are a million ways to define him, so can you conclude some basic frame work.

I'll start:

1.) God created everything.
2.) YOU FILL IN
 
Originally posted by Redoubtable
As for Jenyar . . . if he is a true Christian, he must suffer. It's the very nature of the calling. Whereas Atheist Somebody can indulge his every whim, Jenyar is prohibited many of life's pleasures by his Jealous God.

Why do you think the Our Father reads Lead Me not into Temptation . . . Christians feel trepidation, real pain, when faced with temptation; that's why.

Christ didn't offer the easy road; he offered suffering.
You know, Cris, bearing your personal cross and all that jazz.
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All this is true, but "suffering" is a loaded term. It's true that my faith makes me sensitive to things that others would not think twice about. But the pain I feel is somehow a productive one. As Paul says: "... but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." It permits me to associate with the suffering of people who do not even know why they are suffering. I know that I only have to persevere until death, and that my hope is secure. This kind of security is a tremendous support for people who have none. I prefer this kind of "empathic" pain to the pain caused by not being sensitive about these things - pain caused by the consequences of sin. Pain is always a protective measure. One you can learn from - what has burnt others is liable to burn you as well. The ability to feel it is what protects us from its source, not what protects us from the pain itself. That's why we learn self-control.

Another kind of suffering is of course persecution, which is a given in some countries, fortunately not in my own. God did not promise suffering to satisfy himself, but as a warning that we still live in a world that does not recognize Him. Jesus died for being true to himself, but in doing that He showed us who we really are: children of God.

"For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows."
 
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Originally posted by Cris
The point is that a placebo has no active ingredients of its own. In the God case we don’t actually need him to exist to achieve an effect. All that is needed is the mental conviction that he exists. The reality is what the mind creates.
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No we don't. We are self-subsistant and can live without Him just like we are able to die without Him. The question is whether we are living or dying, ultimately. To determine whether a pill is a placebo or real medicine, you have to examine whether it changes the life (or actually, the "destiny") of the patient.

Strangely though it will only be the believers that can obtain positive benefits from this non-existent God, whereas atheists would need a real god to exist to have the same effect.
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Not true. We're not talking about a little pill here anymore, but about God as the author of our existence. Believers and non-believers benefit equally from Him. Non-believers benefit equally by the second five commandments, but they don't recognize the benefit of the first five. Not seeing the effects does not mean they don't exist. What might seem like a placebo could turn out bo be the water by which the real pill should be swallowed.

Just to be sure you understand: The reality is the real emotional feelings that a God is present and that such a presence generates happiness, purpose, morality, and a productive lifestyle. These are the real experiences that Christians attest to and why they claim a God exists.
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But the experience are not God, and neither are we. They strengthen faith, which already supposes that God exists.

What you can’t demonstrate is whether this reality is the result of the placebo effect or a real God. From my perspective we have significant evidence for placebo effects but zero for real Gods.
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See it from my perspective: that you can exercise morals and good sense without needing to attribute it to God - in fact, without attributing it to anything - is a placebo that you don't need God. Nobody minds taking such placebos while he's in perfect health, but once he becomes aware that being a model citizen doesn't guarantee justice, living sensibly doesn't guarantee enough to live from, and loving doesn't make one deserving of love, he might realize he isn't in fact perfectly healthy. The problem is that all illness ends in death, and by the time you are dead no pill - placebo or otherwise - will do you any good.

To discover if God is not a placebo you will need to present some independent evidence that is not connected with your emotional and mental conditioning. And what a surprise, no one can show any such evidence.
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Faith is not a force. It doesn't make you anything other than human. What will kill you will also kill me. I can't provide any better evidence than the Bible does. Until Jesus, the Old Testament was the testament of faith, afterwards Jesus cllaimed to be the point of the arrow. I live on the momentum of at least 4000 years of faith, and yet I can testify to its truth as if it all happened yesterday. The second half of the commandments are a "placebo" that has never failed to give anything but life, and I have no reason to doubt that the first half are just as sound.

Besides, there might be more than just this life at stake.
 
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While I don't adhere to any imaginary god, the idea that a god is 'good' and 'nice' and would create a world without suffering isn't really logical. What may be suffering to you is benefitting something else.
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Again I don't adhere to any god either, but according to Christian mythology God has already created a world without any suffering. It's called heaven. Why could he not create our world to be the same is anyone's guess.
 
Jenyar,

It's true that my faith makes me sensitive to things that others would not think twice about.
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This combined with some of your other statements represents one of the key reprehensible attitudes generated by Christianity. It is simple and flagrant arrogance; the assumption that without such a faith then others will be insensitive. It is both condescending and very insulting.

Most ordinary people are sensitive about the fate of other people, and this I would argue is a basic tenet of being human. That you attribute this to your self imposed elitist faith is offensive.

I know that I only have to persevere until death, and that my hope is secure. This kind of security is a tremendous support for people who have none.
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And this is, I think, the most tragic result of the Christian paradigm. That you consider that just a few decades of life as acceptable, an insignificant spec in the vast ocean of time and that death is nothing to fear or avoid is very sad. This fatalist widespread approach that prevents mankind from effectively trying to solve the real enemy – involuntary death, is sickening and to my mind characterizes an evil that is the real effect of religion – that death is a good thing.
 
Jenyar,

To determine whether a pill is a placebo or real medicine, you have to examine whether it changes the life (or actually, the "destiny") of the patient.
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Yes and it is called the power of positive thinking that has been widely recognized for many decades. You will find many references on the web. It has dramatically changed the lives and destiny of many people. Here is one random web site.

http://www.marin.cc.ca.us/~don/Study/2positive.html

Like I said it is all in the mind, exactly the same as your faith. It has nothing to do with a fictitious god but entirely what and how you think and how you approach life.

We're not talking about a little pill here anymore, but about God as the author of our existence.
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And here you are demonstrating my point very well. The god you have created in your mind must be seen as unassailable and ultimate, this is the placebo effect. Once you can see that god is just a fiction then you can start dealing with reality, although that might not be as effective as your fantasy.

Believers and non-believers benefit equally from Him.
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No, the benefit is only experienced by those that accept the delusion; although they cannot see it as a delusion otherwise the effect will vanish.

See it from my perspective: that you can exercise morals and good sense without needing to attribute it to God - in fact, without attributing it to anything - is a placebo that you don't need God.
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I attribute my position to the human ability to reason. That ability is demonstrably extremely real. Remember that a placebo has no active ingredients just like your god is a fiction, and note you still cannot show otherwise other than referring to your personal opinion – i.e. from your imagination.

Nobody minds taking such placebos while he's in perfect health,
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Placebos are never given when someone is in perfect health. You wouldn’t call on your god fantasy if you didn’t think you had problems, e.g. sins and death.

living sensibly doesn't guarantee enough to live from, and loving doesn't make one deserving of love, he might realize he isn't in fact perfectly healthy. The problem is that all illness ends in death, and by the time you are dead no pill - placebo or otherwise - will do you any good.
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Brilliant and hooray. Now you are beginning to comprehend reality. Life often sucks real bad. Reality offers no guarantee that anyone will live happily ever after, like the Christian fairy story. Life is hard, and those who recognize this either commit suicide or learn to deal with it. All that religion does is to offer those that can’t deal with reality an imaginative narcotic that dulls their ability to see reality.

Faith is not a force. It doesn't make you anything other than human.
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It enables people to imagine things that aren’t there and believe them true. It doesn’t make you anything other than irrational, with all the dangers that that involves.

I live on the momentum of at least 4000 years of faith, and yet I can testify to its truth as if it all happened yesterday.
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In exactly the same way that during the same time everyone believed the world was flat with the same blind conviction that you demonstrate here. That fantasy was shattered with real evidence. Your fantasy will be shattered when man solves the problem of involuntary death.
 
This fatalist widespread approach that prevents mankind from effectively trying to solve the real enemy – involuntary death, is sickening and to my mind characterizes an evil that is the real effect of religion – that death is a good thing.
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Christianity is actually a form of death denial. Since death is characterized as the end of conscious existence, a story about heaven is fabricated to facilitate the world beyond the current plane. Death has no serious consequences for the christian, because he is free from this miserable world (only miserable in hir eyes) , thus death doesn't exist.

The challenge for the athiest, or even the pagan is realizing that death is the end of everything you've learned, seen, and remembered. Thus one must ask themselves: "If death is the end, what can I do to make my short time justified and heroic?"

Chrisitianity and Buddhism (although far superior to Christ) are religions of existence avoidance. People would rather retreat into some metaphysical comfort than a physical solution to a problem.
 
Originally posted by and2000x
My question for the believers:

If god is real, how is he defined? There are a million ways to define him, so can you conclude some basic frame work.

I'll start:

1.) God created everything.
2.) YOU FILL IN.
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You're done.
 
Chrisitianity and Buddhism (although far superior to Christ) are religions of existence avoidance. People would rather retreat into some metaphysical comfort than a physical solution to a problem.
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One valuable lesson I think all should take from these forums is this: Never speak stereotypically.

Oh... and many humans who have contributed to science have died and it still exists: so yeah science is greater than those who started it if you want to see it that way. You can't speak like that for Christ and Christianity. The fact that christianity exists is because Christ is alive, remove Christ, no Christianity. Remove Einstein; science even get's more solid footing.:p
 
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