Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[exchemist]

Think about what you're saying. Read books instead of believing what some random person concludes. Books written by qualified palaeontologist's, with no agenda.

Palaeontologists are not in a good position to comment on bacterial flagella. Better to consult biochemists.

The Wiki article on flagellar evolution
(here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_flagella) has this to say:

"There is good evidence that the bacterial flagellum has evolved from a Type III secretory and transport system, given the similarity of proteins in both systems.

All currently known nonflagellar Type III transport systems serve the function of exporting (injecting) toxin into eukaryotic cells. Similarly, flagella grow by exporting flagellin through the flagellar machinery. It is hypothesised that the flagellum evolved from the type three secretory system. For example, the bubonic plague bacteriumYersinia pestis has an organelle assembly very similar to a complex flagellum, except that is missing only a few flagellar mechanisms and functions, such as a needle to inject toxins into other cells. The hypothesis that the flagellum evolved from the type three secretory system has been challenged by recent phylogenetic research that strongly suggests the type three secretory system evolved from the flagellum through a series of gene deletions.[6] As such, the type three secretory system supports the hypothesis that the flagellum evolved from a simpler bacterial secretion system."

 

[Write4U]

IMO, the existence and known functions of microtubules is sufficient to explain flagella or any other biological system.

The concept that at some fundamental levels there exists an electro/chemical computational mechanism which allows for mainstream explanations of all mathematical values and functions. That computer is a self-assembled organic quantum computer.
Its name; microtubule.

For sentient organisms awareness must begin at a very fundamental level. If that can be proven then the riddle disappears.

If microtubules are capable of a computational function then the concept of an internal "communicating" network allowing for biological consciousness. we have an answer, no? An internal neural internet which is able to ask "why"... ?

and if interested:

 

[Write4U]

An update on microtubules:

This is getting really interesting.

 

[Michael 345]

An update on microtubules:

This is getting really interesting.

OMG (who I don't believe in)

Go to bed and eat only dry toast, no butter and chicken noodle soup

Drink lemon juice

You have early symsum coming down with MRfluitis

This is getting really interesting

Only one virus away from compelling

 

[Write4U]

Only one virus away from compelling

One virus away from a Quorum sensing and the ORCH-OR function does the rest.
When the count threshold is tripped my brain will start to luminesce and I'll fly away..............

 

[Write4U]

On a more serious note; Hameroff talks about the importance of a double benzene ring in the formation of hydrophobic pockets (a fundamental requirement for ORCH-OR).

Low and behold Bonnie Bassler produces the double ring and its indispensable importance in her talks about quorum sensing. and I find that a compelling argument in favor of the direction of the research.

The Holo LuxP auto inducer! See; 37:30 on the clip.

I like the logic contained in the concept of chemical "words" with specific chemical (mathematical) values which can be sensed and produce a fixed response in groups of bacteria,"quorum sensing", and is that not the definition of a functioning "hive-mind"?

Now refine the abilities and what do you get, ..."distinguish self from other"...conscious sentience?

 

[exchemist]

There is no benzene ring in this talk. These are lactones.

And all it amounts to is altering gene expression in response to chemical sensing of other bacteria. Nothing remotely related to "consciousness" as we know it, Jim.

 

[Write4U]

There is no benzene ring in this talk. These are lactones.

Does it produce a hydrophobic pocket?

And all it amounts to is "altering gene expression in response to chemical sensing of other bacteria". Nothing remotely related to "consciousness" as we know it, Jim.

Who's Jim?
Star Trek..?

If I may use your words, this seems very much like a rudimentary or proto-model of sensory "awareness of one's environment" and combined with physical ability to feed, plus 14 billion years of evolutionary selective refinement would inevitably lead to "sentient motivated behavior" , IMO.

Can sentience even exist other than as a control mechanism for a compound (hive) mind?

 

[iceaura]

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/2/eaat7603.full

Our results establish that consciousness rests on the brain’s ability to sustain rich brain dynamics and pave the way for determining specific and generalizable fingerprints of conscious and unconscious states.

 

[Write4U]

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/2/eaat7603.full

Fom the link

This observation is in line with the prediction of the Global Neuronal Workspace theory stating that different streams of information in the brain compete for the global percolation (“ignition”) of a widespread network of regions, a phenomenon associated with conscious access. In terms of the fMRI blood oxygen level–dependent (BOLD) signal, this could manifest in the mutual inhibition of activity at different cortical regions, leading to anticorrelated dynamics

Is it unreasonable to envision a neural "quorum sensing" (electro/chemical threshold) function in the bolded sentence?

 

[DNA100]

Penrose and Hameroff's theory has actually gathered quite a lot of supportive evidence over the years.

Has anyone looked into Anirban Bandyopadhay's work? His experiments have conclusively proved that there are quantum effects in microtubules as well many other micro-filaments within the cell.

Penrose himself (look up his interview with Joe Rogan) has said that in addition to microtubules other structures like clathrins might also play a role in conscioussness.

Since they proposed their theory, a whole new science of Quantum Biology has sprung up. We know today that quantum effects are involved in photosynthesis, bird navigation etc.

Max Tegmark's paper is a very old one. And since then multiple refutations and adjustments have been published by Hameroff and Penrose. Tegmark himself does not seem to be very convinced from what I have seen.

The main opposition to this theory seems to come from part of the AI community that wants to build consciouss robots using turing computers. They believe religiously that conscioussness will "emerge" out of turing computation. It seems to me to be an emotional argument rather than a well thought out one.

My personal view? - Penrose is at least close, if not fully correct.

 

[Write4U]

Microtubules are pervasive in cells:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule and no role for them in the neural processing of the brain is acknowledged

That is absolutely false. You refuse to study the research and yet make a definitive statement that no role for them exist in the brain.
Hameroff is the expert in brains and he has clearly demonstrated the essential computative role of microtubules especially in the brain, but also throughout the entire body.

As you ought to understand by now, I regard you as a one-track obsessive who cannot use scientific concepts properly, and I don't buy this Implicate Order stuff. I'm just not going to waste time reading this crap.

Well, you seem to be missing that this has become standard science. Are we perhaps "behind the times"?

 

[Write4U]

Microtubules are pervasive in cells
:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule,
and no role for them in the neural processing of the brain is acknowledged.

That's a statement from ignorance.

Because brain neurons and synapses appear to act like switches and ‘bits’ in computers, and because brain disorders like depression, Alzheimer’s disease and traumatic brain injury ravage humanity with limited effective therapies, scientists, governments and funding agencies have bet big on the brain-as-computer analogy.

The most likely sites for consciousness are microtubule networks in dendrites and soma of cortical layer 5 giant pyramidal neurons whose apical dendrites give rise to EEG.

Dendritic-somatic microtubules are unique, being interrupted and arrayed in mixed polarity networks, unsuited for structural support but optimal for information processing, resonance and interference

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-your-brain-really-a-co_b_7756700

And that is just one function of microtubules. Their computing powers are applicable to many functional aspects of all organisms.

What Are the Main Function of Microtubules in the Cell?

Updated August 31, 2018, By Laurie Brenner
Microtubules are exactly how they sound: microscopic hollow tubes found inside eukaryotic cells and some prokaryotic bacteria cells that provide structure and motor functions for the cell. Biology students learn during their studies that there are only two types of cells: prokaryotic and eukaryotic.

Prokaryotic cells make up the single-celled organisms found in the Archaea and Bacteria domains under the Linnaean taxonomy system, a biological classification system of all life, while eukaryotic cells fall under the Eukarya domain, which oversees the protist, plant, animal and fungi kingdoms.

The Monera kingdom refers to bacteria.

Microtubules contribute to multiple functions within the cell, all of which are important to cellular life.

As part of the cytoskeleton of the cell, microtubules contribute to:

• Giving shape to cells and cellular membranes.
• Cell movement, which includes contraction in muscle cells and more.
• Transportation of specific organelles within the cell via microtubule "roadways" or "conveyor belts."
• Mitosis and meiosis: movement of chromosomes during cell division and creation of the mitotic spindle.

https://sciencing.com/functions-microfilaments-microtubules-19319.html

Looks like computation of several "ordering" functions, including motor function is a particular ability of microtubules (flagella).

Then to consider that every cell in our body needs microtubules, even for purpose of mitosis (cell division) alone.

btw. Cell division is a mathematical function which requires a computational processor .

 

[Write4U]

iceaura said: http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/2/eaat7603.full

From the link; Abstract

Adopting the framework of brain dynamics as a cornerstone of human consciousness, we determined whether dynamic signal coordination provides specific and generalizable patterns pertaining to conscious and unconscious states after brain damage.

A dynamic pattern of coordinated and anticoordinated functional magnetic resonance imaging signals characterized healthy individuals and minimally conscious patients. The brains of unresponsive patients showed primarily a pattern of low interareal phase coherence mainly mediated by structural connectivity, and had smaller chances to transition between patterns. The complex pattern was further corroborated in patients with covert cognition, who could perform neuroimaging mental imagery tasks, validating this pattern’s implication in consciousness. Anesthesia increased the probability of the less complex pattern to equal levels, validating its implication in unconsciousness. Our results establish that consciousness rests on the brain’s ability to sustain rich brain dynamics and pave the way for determining specific and generalizable fingerprints of conscious and unconscious states.

Hameroff explains this in detail as a description of function and failure in Alzheimer's microtubules. (See page 1 first Youtube link)

The spatiotemporal complexity of brain dynamics contributes toward efficient exchanges between neuronal populations (8), suggesting that the neural correlates of consciousness could be found in temporally evolving dynamic processes, as postulated by influential theoretical accounts

While it uses generalized language the abstract obviously describes the microtubular networks and their dynamic functions in braincells.

 

[Write4U]

There is no benzene ring in this talk. These are lactones.

See below.

. Nothing remotely related to "consciousness" as we know it, Jim.

Anaesthetics Act in Quantum Channels in Brain Microtubules to Prevent Consciousness

Abstract,

The mechanism by which anesthetic gases selectively prevent consciousness and memory (sparing non-conscious brain functions) remains unknown. At the turn of the 20th century Meyer and Overton showed that potency of structurally dissimilar anesthetic gas molecules correlated precisely over many orders of magnitude with one factor, solubility in a non-polar, ‘hydrophobic’ medium akin to olive oil. In the 1980s Franks and Lieb showed anesthetics acted in such a medium within proteins, suggesting post-synaptic membrane receptors. But anesthetic studies on such proteins yielded only confusing results.

In recent years Eckenhoff and colleagues have found anesthetic action in microtubules, cytoskeletal polymers of the protein tubulin inside brain neurons.

‘Quantum mobility’ in microtubules has been proposed to mediate consciousness. Through molecular modeling we have previously shown: (1) olive oil-like non-polar, hydrophobic quantum mobility pathways (‘quantum channels’) of tryptophan rings in tubulin, (2) binding of anesthetic gas molecules in these channels, and (3) capabilities for π-electron resonant energy transfer, or exciton hopping, among tryptophan aromatic rings in quantum channels, similar to photosynthesis protein quantum coherence. Here, we show anesthetic molecules can impair π-resonance energy transfer and exciton hopping in tubulin quantum channels, and thus account for selective action of anesthetics on consciousness and memory.

https://www.galileocommission.org/a...-to-prevent-consciousness-hameroff-et-al-2015

 

[exchemist]

To quote post 19: "As you ought to understand by now, I regard you as a one-track obsessive who cannot use scientific concepts properly, and I don't buy this Implicate Order stuff. I'm just not going to waste time reading this crap."

 

[globali]

The quantum effects in microtubules are equal to the quantum effects in an airplane, aka macroscopically unimportant

 

[Yazata]

The quantum effects in microtubules are equal to the quantum effects in an airplane, aka macroscopically unimportant

Probably true.

Even if (just hypothetically,) cells have some mechanism to amplify 'quantum effects' onto the macroscale, how does one get from there to 'consciousness'?

It seems to me that there's a bit of quantum-mysticism hand-waving baked into this.

Quantum is mysterious and little-understood, consciousness is mysterious and little-understood, so quantum must equal consciousness.

Labron James is big, Boeing 747's are big, hence Labron must be a Boeing 747.

Nope, not buying it.

 

[Write4U]

To quote post 19: "As you ought to understand by now, I regard you as a one-track obsessive who cannot use scientific concepts properly, and I don't buy this Implicate Order stuff. I'm just not going to waste time reading this crap."

As expected. No knowledge, no usable input.

The quantum effects in microtubules are equal to the quantum effects in an airplane, aka macroscopically unimportant

Probably true

Quantum is mysterious and little-understood, consciousness is mysterious and little-understood, so quantum must equal consciousness.

You do understand this statement is in conflict with the research. Can you cite a link to scientific reference that states this? If not, I would suggest you read the information I provided, which suggests otherwise. Or call Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose. Penrose knows about quantum, if anybody does. You want to call him a crank?

Seems a lot of people make unsupported assumptions which are contrary to the science cited from a multitude of scientific sources. Do you even realize at what level we are talking?

p.s. I have never heard of a nano size airplane............Have you?

A nanometer is a one-billionth of a meter, and used to measure things that are very, very small.

A microtubule can grow as long as 50 micrometres and are highly dynamic. The outer diameter of a microtubule is between 23 and 27 nm while the inner diameter is between 11 and 15 nm.

 

[Write4U]

My personal view? - Penrose is at least close, if not fully correct

If you find new developments in this area of research, please share it, my friend!