Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[billvon]

No microtubules = no neurons.
Neurons don't compute. The microtubules inside neurons compute.

No they don't. They are simple structures that perform simple metabolic functions within neurons. The neurons do the work.

If you had microtubules and no neurons you'd have a soup.

If you had neurons with no microtubules (with something else performing their simple metabolic functions) you'd still have intelligence.

Claiming that microtubules compute is like claiming that AA cell batteries compute because you saw them inside a calculator once.

 

[Write4U]

Claiming that microtubules compute is like claiming that AA cell batteries compute because you saw them inside a calculator once.

Well, Hameroff and Penrose seem to think so.

But I believe you may be underestimating the role and various functions microtubules fill.

Microtubule architecture: inspiration for novel carbon nanotube-based biomimetic materials.
Abstract:
Microtubules are self-assembling biological nanotubes that are essential for cell motility, cell division and intracellular trafficking. Microtubules have outstanding mechanical properties, combining high resilience and stiffness. Such a combination allows microtubules to accomplish multiple cellular functions and makes them interesting for material sciences.

We review recent experiments that elucidate the relationship between molecular architecture and mechanics in microtubules and examine analogies and differences between microtubules and carbon nanotubes, which are their closest equivalent in nanotechnology. We suggest that a long-term goal in bionanotechnology should be mimicking the properties of microtubules and microtubule bundles to produce new functional nanomaterials.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18433902

 

[Write4U]

"Almost certainly"? Is there some justification for thinking that? I don't believe it, so what might convince me?

They seem to be the earliest complex structural and dynamical transit mechanisms in biology.

I would give the oldest such biological proto-sentient pattern an evolutionary headstart.
From what have read so far microtubules are remarkably versatile in functions they are able to fill.

What I don't understand is, that everyone agrees microtubules are remarkable nanostructures, but in the same breath totally dismiss the notion that microtubules may fill an important function in the eventual emergence of consciousness.

What is the next best option? Spirituality (irreducible complexity)? Accident (isolated chance rather than probability)?

Or perhaps an emergent quality of billions of years of refinement of a fundamental "nano communication tower" which is now found in nearly all living things on earth.
It is a common denominator of all dynamic organisms.

IMO, all this suggest that microtubules are not just important but "necessary" for the emergence of consciousness.

I am not excluding all the other common bio-chemical denominators that are required for the biochemistry of life. I am focusing on those qualities that point in the direction of computational properties of biochemical structural and information transit networks which might lead to the possibility of an emergent self-referential system.

p.s. David Bohm identified this ultimate mathematical self-referential function as "insight intelligence".

 

[Write4U]

If you had microtubules and no neurons you'd have a soup.

No, you wouldn't. You'd have a structure. The soup occurs without the microtubules.

 

[billvon]

Well, Hameroff and Penrose seem to think so.

And some people think Bigfoot exists. Doesn't mean he does.

No, you wouldn't. You'd have a structure. The soup occurs without the microtubules.

You would have a disorganized mess of organic molecules.

But I believe you may be underestimating the role and various functions microtubules fill.

You posted something about how they are similar to carbon nanostructures. That doesn't support your claim.

But in any case, they serve several biological functions. So does a neuron's nucleus. So do its mitochondria. So does its cell membrane. All equally important in keeping the neuron alive. And living neurons, not specific protein structures, are what give rise to intelligence.

 

[Write4U]

And some people think Bigfoot exists. Doesn't mean he does.

Are those people who think Bigfoot exists scientists? I do not present "sightings" as my sources. I always cite what scientists say. Hameroff and Penrose are "respectable' scientists. The links I provide are to informative lectures by current scientists on the state of Science and research in various new and exciting areas such as nano chemistry and technology.

You would have a disorganized mess of organic molecules.

From what I have read microtubules are instrumental in organizing the "flexible"structure of organic cells and neurons. I believe they are also instrumental in cell division itself! How disorganized is that?

You posted something about how they are similar to carbon nanostructures. That doesn't support your claim.

Let's see if I quoted it incorrectly. From post#122

We review recent experiments that elucidate the relationship between molecular architecture and mechanics in microtubules and examine analogies and differences between microtubules and carbon nanotubes, which are their closest equivalent in nanotechnology. We suggest that a long-term goal in bionanotechnology should be mimicking the properties of microtubules and microtubule bundles to produce new functional nanomaterials.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18433902

But in any case, they serve several biological functions. So does a neuron's nucleus. So do its mitochondria. So does its cell membrane. All equally important in keeping the neuron alive. And living neurons, not specific protein structures, are what give rise to intelligence.

I don't dispute any of that, but should we not ask what gives a living neuron its remarkable transmission properties? Has to be some form of dynamical behavior, no? And what is photo-synthesis?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...crotubuleDynamicInstability.ogv.480p.vp9.webm

Microtubules in neurons consist of highly dynamic regions as well as stable regions, some of which persist after bouts of severing as short mobile polymers. Concentrated at the plus ends of the highly dynamic regions are proteins called +TIPs that can interact with an array of other proteins and structures relevant to the plasticity of the neuron.

It is also provocative to ponder that short mobile microtubules might similarly convey information with them as they transit within the neuron. Thus beyond their known conventional functions in supporting neuronal architecture and organelle transport, microtubules may act as “information carriers” in the neuron.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979999/

Structures and Functions of Microtubules
Microtubules are filamentous intracellular structures that are responsible for various kinds of movements in all eukaryotic cells. Microtubules are involved in nucleic and cell division, organization of intracellular structure, and intracellular transport, as well as ciliary and flagellar motility. Because the functions of microtubules are so critical to the existence of eukaryotic cells (including our own), it is important that we understand their composition, how they are assembled and disassembled, and how their assembly/disassembly and functions are regulated by cells.

Assembly of microtubules

https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/studies/invertebrates/microtubules.html

IMO, one of the most persuasive arguments is made by Hameroff who demonstrates that microtubular breakdown is causal to Alzheimer Disease, the gradual onset of dementia. According to Hameroff, the catastrophic breakdown of microtubules inside the brain's neurons is the primary culprit.

This breakdown of the microtubule causes the neuron to disintegrate (literally, fall apart). See the cover.

IMO, this clearly indicates a direct connection between microtubules and "consciousness".

 

[Write4U]

The feasibility of coherent energy transfer in microtubules
Travis John Adrian Craddock, Douglas Friesen, Jonathan Mane, Stuart Hameroff, Jack A. Tuszynski
Published 17 September 2014.

The ‘tubulin’ subunit proteins, which comprise microtubules, also possess a distinct architecture of chromophores, namely aromatic amino acids, including tryptophan. The geometry and dipolar properties of these aromatics are similar to those found in photosynthetic units indicating that tubulin may support coherent energy transfer. Tubulin aggregated into microtubule geometric lattices may support such energy transfer, which could be important for biological signalling and communication essential to living processes.

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/100/20140677

Microtubules are involved in photosynthesis?

(biological signalling and communication essential to living processes.)?

Do these properties provide the fundamentally required platform (scaffolding) for the emergence of "sentience" and later "consciousness"?

Hameroff hopes to find methods of repairing (rebuilding) microtubules to cure mental degeneration or degradation. Ambitious? No doubt. But a worthy quest.
The evidence is mounting ...

 

[billvon]

Are those people who think Bigfoot exists scientists?

They think they are.

I do not present "sightings" as my sources. I always cite what scientists say. Hameroff and Penrose are "respectable' scientists.

No doubt.

And the 9/11 Truthers claim that respectable scientists, engineers and architects can PROVE! beyond a shadow of a doubt! That those airplanes could NOT have brought down the World Trade Center.

I don't dispute any of that, but should we not ask what gives a living neuron its remarkable transmission properties?

Sure. And now we know. Nerve impulses travel by waves of depolarization, and the signals are transmitted (synapses) across the gaps by neurotransmitters. Microtubules help out with that process. But take away any one from a neuron - neurotransmitters, nucleus, membrane, ion pumps - and you have nothing.

However, simulate a neuron with a piece of silicon and you get exactly the same functionality. Without microtubules.

This breakdown of the microtubule causes the neuron to disintegrate (literally, fall apart). See the cover.
IMO, this clearly indicates a direct connection between microtubules and "consciousness".

If you took away all the water from a brain you would die.
Does that mean water is even MORE important for consciousness than microtubules?

 

[Write4U]

They think they are.

I check their credentials.

Sure. And now we know. Nerve impulses travel by waves of depolarization, and the signals are transmitted (synapses) across the gaps by neurotransmitters. Microtubules help out with that process. But take away any one from a neuron - neurotransmitters, nucleus, membrane, ion pumps - and you have nothing.

And I believe there's where you are wrong.
Microtubules occur in paramecium which does not have a neural network. Yet it is able to navigate and learn to avoid obstacles. Without neurons, how then does it do that?

However, simulate a neuron with a piece of silicon and you get exactly the same functionality. Without microtubules.

Precisely, and we use them to build non-biological computers.
If you took away all the water from a brain you would die.[/quote] True, but that's not the question, as I have stated several times before when you tried to introduce irrelevant facts to the OP question. Water is NOT a computing medium. That is the subject under discussion.

Does that mean water is even MORE important for consciousness than microtubules?

I have stipulated several times that "elements" are an essential part of the universe, regardless of any other consideration.

But microtubules are not elements, they are elementary structural polymers eminently adapted to fill a host of functions, including the eventual emergence of conscious sentience.

Let's stick to one fundamental biological structured polymer that occurs billions of times in living bodies and brains and that is able to perform the same computations as silicone chips can in computers, but offers the advantage of an evolutionary emergent conscious sentience, which a silicone chip cannot.
Thank for the metaphor. I agree.

 

[billvon]

And I believe there's where you are wrong.
Microtubules occur in paramecium which does not have a neural network. Yet it is able to navigate and learn to avoid obstacles. Without neurons, how then does it do that?

The same way you can teach matchboxes to play tic-tac-toe. You don't need a neural network to learn.

Precisely, and we use them to build non-biological computers.

Thus proving you don't need microtubules for intelligence. Thank you for acknowledging that.

Water is NOT a computing medium.

Nor are microtubules. Thus your argument "neurons need them" is irrelevant.

 

[Write4U]

The same way you can teach matchboxes to play tic-tac-toe. You don't need a neural network to learn.

Right, you need microtubules, according to Hameroff. Pyramids of microtubules form memory modules.

Thus proving you don't need microtubules for intelligence. Thank you for acknowledging that.

I did not say that. I said neurons are not necessary for fundamental computing abilities in simple organisms. But microtubules are.

Nor are microtubules. Thus your argument "neurons need them" is irrelevant.

Incorrect, IMO, microtubules are the biological equivalent of the microchip. AI uses microchips, NI (natural intelligence) uses microtubules.

Microtubular polymers are called "protofilaments". What filaments do they form ? Neural filaments as well as, cilia, flagella.

Microtubules are very important in a number of cellular processes. They are involved in maintaining the structure of the cell and, together with microfilaments and intermediate filaments, they form the cytoskeleton. They also make up the internal structure of cilia and flagella. They provide platforms for intracellular transport and are involved in a variety of cellular processes, including the movement of secretory vesicles, organelles, and intracellular macromolecular assemblies (see entries for dynein and kinesin).[3] They are also involved in cell division (by mitosis and meiosis) and are the major constituents of mitotic spindles, which are used to pull eukaryotic chromosomes apart.

Microtubules are one of the cytoskeletal filament systems in eukaryotic cells. The microtubule cytoskeleton is involved in the transport of material within cells, carried out by motor proteins that move on the surface of the microtubule .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule

Can you suggest a better existing model, other than a blanket "neurons cause consciousness" ? How about, "the brain causes consciousness". There, end of story. But then we have that sticky problem with parmecia which don't have brains....

 

[billvon]

Right, you need microtubules, according to Hameroff. Pyramids of microtubules form memory modules.

Nope. All you need are matchboxes. (Or some silicon.)

Again, do you think your point is reinforced by saying things that are completely wrong? You seem to think that repetition increases the value of your incorrect statements.

I did not say that. I said neurons are not necessary for fundamental computing abilities in simple organisms. But microtubules are.

Matchboxes do not have microtubules. But they can learn.
NPU's do not have microtubules. But they can learn.
Bacteria do not have microtubules. But they can learn.

====================
Scientists Show Bacteria Can 'Learn' And Plan Ahead
Date:
June 18, 2009
Source:
Weizmann Institute of Science
Summary:
Scientists have shown that microorganisms can "learn" through evolution to anticipate upcoming events and prepare for them.

Bacteria can anticipate a future event and prepare for it, according to new research at the Weizmann Institute of Science. In a paper that appeared June 17 in Nature, Prof. Yitzhak Pilpel, doctoral student Amir Mitchell and research associate Dr. Orna Dahan of the Institute's Molecular Genetics Department, together with Prof. Martin Kupiec and Gal Romano of Tel Aviv University, examined microorganisms living in environments that change in predictable ways.

====================

Incorrect, IMO, microtubules are the biological equivalent of the microchip. AI uses microchips, NI (natural intelligence) uses microtubules.

What function of a neural network is replicated in a microtubule?

Can you suggest a better existing model, other than a blanket "neurons cause consciousness" ? How about, "the brain causes consciousness". There, end of story. But then we have that sticky problem with parmecia which don't have brains...

You just stated something incorrect, said "that's incorrect" and then thought that you made some sort of point.

So far pretty much everything you stated has been completely incorrect. You really need to learn a little bit about what you are talking about before you post and make a fool of yourself.

 

[Write4U]

Nope. All you need are matchboxes. (Or some silicon.)

I'll just ignore thar as being irrelevant.

Again, do you think your point is reinforced by saying things that are completely wrong? You seem to think that repetition increases the value of your incorrect statements.

I have not yet heard a coherent refutation of the points I made.

NPU's do not have microtubules. But they can learn.
Bacteria do not have microtubules. But they can learn.

Scientists Show Bacteria Can 'Learn' And Plan Ahead
Date: June 18, 2009
Source: Weizmann Institute of Science
Summary: Scientists have shown that microorganisms can "learn" through evolution to anticipate upcoming events and prepare for them.

Bacteria can anticipate a future event and prepare for it, according to new research at the Weizmann Institute of Science. In a paper that appeared June 17 in Nature, Prof. Yitzhak Pilpel, doctoral student Amir Mitchell and research associate Dr. Orna Dahan of the Institute's Molecular Genetics Department, together with Prof. Martin Kupiec and Gal Romano of Tel Aviv University, examined microorganisms living in environments that change in predictable ways.

This is not a new observation. I posted a reference to the learning abilities of single celled slime molds several pages ago, which clearly demonstrates that the microtubules in slime molds are able to learn specific recurring events.

If anything, this supports my viewpoint that proto-sentient structures started very early on in the evolution of living things. Microtubules do fit that description.

Can you cite another structural polymer which comes even close to providing the range of microtubular abilities?

What function of a neural network is replicated in a microtubule?

What function of a computer network is replicated in a microchip? Processing of information?

So far pretty much everything you stated has been completely incorrect. You really need to learn a little bit about what you are talking about before you post and make a fool of yourself.

I have yet to hear a scientific refutation of my proposed "possible" solution to the problem of emergent consciousness.

Even Max Tegmark, whom I like for different reasons, was incorrect in his argument against Hameroff and Penrose in that brain wetness and heat would render microtubules unusable for quantum processes. An actual experiment showed that Tegmark was incorrect in this instance and that microtubules are very well able to function in that manner. And I am not even talking about quantum processes at all.

That come later.......

Even Exchemist (my harshest critic) stipulated to that, which I truly appreciated....

 

[Write4U]

Human consciousness is the ability to hallucinate an internal vision of external reality. There is no guarantee that these hallucinations are compatible or empathic with others.
When they do, it reinforces the common experience of reality.

I would compare a computer monitor as a network (brain) which able to project the external images processed by the computer via the monitor in the form of collections of pixels.

Example; if your color adjustments on your monitor screens are not identical the viewers will have a diverse opinion as to what color, shade, or hue they were watching.

Same thing with brains. Each brain is an autonomous computer and internal projector of external stimulus. They are all "tuned" (programmed from experience) just a little differently....

IMO, there is very little fundamental difference between NI and AI.
One is organic, the other is inorganic.

As Seth says, "you don't have to be smart to feel pain, but you probably have to be alive."

 

[Write4U]

Microtubules are pervasive in cells:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule and no role for them in the neural processing of the brain is acknowledged.

Except by Hameroff who deals with them on a daily basis as anesthesiologist and renders people into unconscious objects for a precisely calculated time, when the patient needs to return to consciousness.

Just ran across a little schematic of microtubules and the neural transport network they create. (https://www.proteinatlas.org/humanproteome/cell)

and an accurate visual;

Tau proteins (or τ proteins, after the Greek letter with that name) are proteins that stabilize microtubules. They are abundant in neurons of the central nervous system and are less common elsewhere, but are also expressed at very low levels in CNS astrocytes and oligodendrocytes.[5]Pathologies and dementias of the nervous system such as Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease[6] are associated with tau proteins that have become defective and no longer stabilize microtubules properly.

And some interesting facts about the Tau protein in relation to conscious brain processes.

Neurons were grown in tissue culture and stained with antibody to MAP2 protein in green and MAP tau in red using the immunofluorescence technique. MAP2 is found only in dendrites and perikarya, while tau is found not only in the dendrites and perikarya but also in axons. As a result, axons appear red while the dendrites and perikarya appear yellow, due to superimposition of the red and green signals. DNA is shown in blue using the DAPI stain which highlights the nuclei.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_protein#Structure

I still believe microtubules are most likely to be the platform for processing and transport of protein information, the tiny computers which identify and translate the protein structures.
Types of real organic machines (dynamic computers).

 

[Write4U]

Oh. and this is really interesting;

 

[Write4U]

i believe in the bones. i read two good books one. bones of contention(both called this), one wrote by a theist the other an atheist.

Well, the flagellum is not an irreducibly complex molecular pattern. It's engine is a microtubule.

Microtubules are nucleated and organized by microtubule organizing centers (MTOCs), such as the centrosome found in the center of many animal cells or the basal bodies found in cilia and flagella, or the spindle pole bodies found in most fungi.

It is also the scaffolding used in mitosis, and perhaps the basis for intelligence itself.

It is not a product of Intelligent Design. It is a product of Evolution and Natural selection.

 

[davewhite04]

Well, the flagellum is not an irreducibly complex molecular pattern. It's engine is a microtubule.

It is also the scaffolding used in mitosis, and perhaps the basis for intelligence itself.

It is not a product of Intelligent Design. It is a product of Evolution and Natural selection.

Think about what you're saying. Read books instead of believing what some random person concludes. Books written by qualified palaeontologist's, with no agenda.

 

[Write4U]

Think about what you're saying. Read books instead of believing what some random person concludes. Books written by qualified palaeontologist's, with no agenda.

I have thought about it deeply and studied the formal proposals by several experts in the field . I have posted a plethora of references and even started a thread on "Microtubules", which are the "reducibly complex" motors of the flagella and many other dynamic cell functions.
And is now the subject of intense study by a reknowned anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff

Anesthesiologists are expected to have expert knowledge of human physiology, medical physics and pharmacology, as well as a broad general knowledge of all areas of medicine and surgery in all ages of patients, with a particular focus on those aspects which may impact on a surgical procedure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesiology#Scope

in cooperation with Roger Penrose

Penrose is known for his work in mathematical physics, in particular for his contributions to general relativity and cosmology. He has received several prizes and awards, including the 1988 Wolf Prize for physics, which he shared with Stephen Hawking for the Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose

Unfortunately you believe in a religious nut-case Behe, who has been thoroughly debunked.

Michael J. Behe (/ˈbiːhiː/BEE-hee; born January 18, 1952) is an American biochemist, author, and advocate of the pseudoscientific[2] principle of intelligent design (ID). He serves as professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania and as a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.

??????

Behe is best known as an advocate for the validity of the argument for irreducible complexity (IC), which claims that some biochemical structures are too complex to be explained by known evolutionary mechanisms and are therefore probably the result of intelligent design.

Behe has testified in several court cases related to intelligent design, including the court case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District that resulted in a ruling that intelligent design was not science and was religious in nature

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Behe

I would suggest; "Read some useful books instead of believing what some random religious person concludes"

 

[Write4U]

An update on microtubules.