Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

Similarly, flagella grow by exporting flagellin through the flagellar machinery

THE MICROTUBULES ARE THE FLAGELLAR MACHINERY!

For example, the flagella of the photosynthetic protist Chlamydomonas are composed of microtubules, as are all flagella and cilia. Cilia and flagella have the same basic structure. They are attached to structures known as basal bodies , which in turn are anchored to the cytoplasmic side of the plasma membrane

Structures and Functions of Microtubules,

Microtubules are filamentous intracellular structures that are responsible for various kinds of movements in all eukaryotic cells. Microtubules are involved in nucleic and cell division, organization of intracellular structure, and intracellular transport, as well as ciliary and flagellar motility. Because the functions of microtubules are so critical to the existence of eukaryotic cells (including our own), it is important that we understand their composition, how they are assembled and disassembled, and how their assembly/disassembly and functions are regulated by cells.

https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/studies/invertebrates/microtubules.html

 

[globali]

p.s. I have never heard of a nano size airplane............Have you?
A microtubule can grow as long as 50 micrometres and are highly dynamic. The outer diameter of a microtubule is between 23 and 27 nm while the inner diameter is between 11 and 15 nm.

This is still about 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 (10^-26) times bigger than the Planck scale.

As expected. No knowledge, no usable input.
You do understand this statement is in conflict with the research. Can you cite a link to scientific reference that states this? If not, I would suggest you read the information I provided, which suggests otherwise. Or call Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff.

Seems a lot of people make unsupported assumptions which are contrary to the science cited from a multitude of scientific sources. Do you even realize at what level we are talking?

There is absolutely no evidence that quantum phenomena have MACROSCOPIC effects in biological systems.
A good debunking for the psiedoscientific woo that readers can start with:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_consciousness

 

[Yazata]

Seems a lot of people make unsupported assumptions which are contrary to the science cited from a multitude of scientific sources.

Your "multitude of scientific sources" seem to consist of quotations from Hameroff himself, or else lots of basic biology stuff about how microtubules are interesting and important.

Nobody disputes the latter. What I personally question is how one justifies the leap from microtubules being important, to their somehow being the secret of consciousness and maybe of life itself. Just tossing in some hand waving about quantum physics doesn't even really address that question.

 

[Write4U]

This is still about 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 (10^-26) times bigger than the Planck scale.

And quantum happens only at Planck scale? Can you prove that?

There is absolutely no evidence that quantum phenomena have MACROSCOPIC effects in biological systems.

That's what we are beginning to look at. Of course there is no evidence yet. No one has ever looked before.

I deleted the last part because it was wholly uncalled for. This is a serious area of inquiry. it may provide a cure for Alzheimer's and perhaps a host of other brain diseases that depend on stable functions of microtubules in brain cells.

What makes you think that consciousness resides at Planck scale. Do you have proof of that? Is a holograph formed at Planck scale?

I am amazed that I am called a crank for displaying interest in serious research, yet all critique is based on no knowledge or research at all.

Just knee-jerk banalities. It's really tiresome. Show me some research that contradicts what is being researched today, not old incomplete knowledge from 15-20 years ago.

 

[Write4U]

Nobody disputes the latter. What I personally question is how one justifies the leap from microtubules being important, to their somehow being the secret of consciousness and maybe of life itself. Just tossing in some hand waving about quantum physics doesn't even really address that question.

There are a billion active microtubules in the body, each a nano-scale bi-directional electro-chemical computer. It is no great leap to visualize a functional "hive mind" which acquires its own consciousness.

This is not the same as an AI computer. Microtubules process chemicals in addition to electrical signals. Chemical interactions are experiential in nature. After all, sentient living things evolved from non-conscious electro-chemical processes, no?

If you want to stick with magical solutions, fine. I am interested in finding practical solutions. You are the one practicing woo, not I. I am researching and gathering as much information as I can and draw my own conclusions without the gratuitous derogatory critiques from uninformed minds (on this particular subject).

Your "multitude of scientific sources" seem to consist of quotations from Hameroff himself, or else lots of basic biology stuff about how microtubules are interesting and important.

Obviously you are not reading any of my posts and links. There are currently dozens if not hundreds of researchers doing work, not only on microtubules themselves, but also on the proposition of a ORCH-OR brain function (hive-mind), which might lead to experiential sensations (consciousness) in the subject.

A single celled paramecium has sensation. That is because it has microtubules and cilia. Do you believe we are less sentient (conscious) than a paramecium.

This is new science........!

 

[Write4U]

This is still about 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 (10^-26) times bigger than the Planck scale.

There is absolutely no evidence that quantum phenomena have MACROSCOPIC effects in biological systems.
A good debunking for the psiedoscientific woo that readers can start with:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_consciousness

Perhaps you may want to consider the scale of chemical quanta, instead of EM quanta.

p.s. I believe microtubules are sensitive to certain wavelengths.

A sampling.

1. Tubulin mRNA stability is sensitive to change in microtubule ...
   
   
   journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371...
   The localization, mass, and dynamics of microtubules are important in many processes. Cells may actively monitor the state of their microtubules and respond to perturbation, but how this occurs outside mitosis is poorly understood. We used gene-expression analysis in quiescent cells to analyze ...
   
   
2. LSPR Biosensing Approach for the Detection of Microtubule ...
   
   
   www.pubfacts.com/detail/30909588/LSPR-Biosensing...
   The model predicts that the extinction maximum wavelength is sensitive to a change in the local refractive index induced by microtubule nucleation within a few tens of nanometers from the nanoparticle surface, but insensitive to a change in the refractive index outside this region caused by microtubule elongation.
   
   
3. Microtubule - Wikipedia
   
   
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule
   Microtubule polymers are extremely sensitive to various environmental effects. Very low levels of free calcium can destabilize microtubules and this prevented early researchers from studying the polymer in vitro. Cold temperatures also cause rapid depolymerization of microtubules. In contrast, heavy water promotes microtubule polymer stability.
   
   
4. Molecular understanding of label-free second harmonic imaging ...
   
   
   www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11463-8
   The use of label-free SH imaging of microtubules remains limited, as sensitive detection is required and the true molecular origin and main determinants required to generate SH from microtubules ...
   
   
5. Are microtubules the 'nerves' of the cell?
   
   
   www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/nerves.htm
   In response to exogenous signals the centrosome may send destabilizing signals along its radial array of microtubules. Neither microtubules nor the drug (nocodazole) are sensitive to infrared light. If the light pulses destabilized the microtubules it had to be an indirect effect caused by some other cellular component which is light sensitive and connected to the microtubules.
   
   
6. Cell Biology 07: Microtubules and Cell Division - CureFFI.org
   
   
   www.cureffi.org/2013/03/30/cell-biology-07-microtubules...
   Cell Biology 07: Microtubules and Cell Division. Mar 30, 2013 • ericminikel • bios-e-16. These are notes from lecture 7 of Harvard Extension’s Cell Biology course. Lecture 6 introduced microtubules, and this lecture will discuss their role in cell division. Here is an introductory video:
   
   
7. Acetylation of microtubules influences their sensitivity to ...
   
   
   www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2891103
   Here we investigated whether the sensitivity of microtubules to severing by katanin is regulated by acetylation of the microtubules. During interphase, fibroblasts display long microtubules with discrete regions rich in acetylated tubulin. Overexpression of katanin for short periods of time produced ...
   
   
8. Microtubules - The Cell - NCBI Bookshelf
   
   
   www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9932
   In axons, the microtubules are all oriented with their plus ends away from the cell body, similar to the general orientation of microtubules in other cell types. The minus ends of most of the microtubules in axons, however, are not anchored in the centrosome ; instead, both the plus and minus ends of these microtubules terminate in the cytoplasm of the axon.

 

[globali]

And quantum happens only at Planck scale? Can you prove that? That's what we are beginning to look at. Of course there is no evidence yet. No one has ever looked before.

I am amazed that I am called a crank for displaying interest in serious research, yet all critique is based on no knowledge or research at all.

I am not familiar with quantum mechanics but isn't uncertainty required in order for quantum consciousness to make sense at the macroscopic level?



Serious research is based on evidence, which you said it does not exist yet. Show us data and we will discuss them. Hypothetical or investigative areas should not be taken as a fact.

ps. we know what microtubules are

 

[Write4U]

I am not familiar with quantum mechanics but isn't uncertainty required in order for quantum consciousness to make sense at the macroscopic level?

Superposition is not exclusive to Planck scale functions.

The superposition principle,[1] also known as superposition property, states that, for all linear systems, the net response caused by two or more stimuli is the sum of the responses that would have been caused by each stimulus individually. So that if input A produces response X and input B produces response Y then input (A + B) produces response (X + Y

A function {\displaystyle F(x)}

that satisfies the superposition principle is called a linear function. Superposition can be defined by two simpler properties; additivity and homogeneity

The superposition principle applies to any linear system, including algebraic equations, linear differential equations, and systems of equations of those forms. The stimuli and responses could be numbers, functions, vectors, vector fields, time-varying signals, or any other object that satisfies certain axioms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle

Serious research is based on evidence, which you said it does not exist yet. Show us data and we will discuss them. Hypothetical or investigative areas should not be taken as a fact.

I have offered a small library of available information in this new field. If this escaped your attention, I am not to blame.

ps. we know what microtubules are

Not everybody does. It is why I started this thread and provided copious examples under investigation.

My posits are probative. I make a statement and hope to find confirmation or falsification. If neither is available yet, I withold judgement. I would not presume to declare scientific certainty, without further data.

OTOH, outright rejection of a proposition without falsification data is just as intolerable as proposing unproven woo.

 

[pluto2]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but scientists are selfish when they claim that pain after injury is extremely unpleasant because of the cells in the brain.

The evidence shows that pain's extreme unpleasantness after injury is not caused by the brain at all (ok maybe some of it but definitely not most of it) but by something else that many scientists are way too selfish to say that they don't understand yet.

I think that money interests corrupts scientists because when there is money in academia then scientists behave more selfishly and unethically.

 

[globali]

Not everybody does. It is why I started this thread and provided copious examples under investigation.

My posits are probative. I make a statement and hope to find confirmation or falsification. If neither is available yet, I withold judgement. I would not presume to declare scientific certainty, without further data.

OTOH, outright rejection of a proposition without falsification data is just as intolerable as proposing unproven woo.

Yes but don't forget that what you are saying here is that:

a)Quantum effects govern macroscopic phenomena in microtubules.
b)Microtubules have consciousness
c)Quantum phenomena cause consciousness
d)Quantum phenomena cause consciousness through microtubules
All at once.

Those are too many assumptions that each one of them is debatable. Can you blame me for being skeptical and unwilling to follow these leaps at once without convincing evidence??

 

[Write4U]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but scientists are selfish when they claim that pain after injury is extremely unpleasant because of the cells in the brain.

All contributions are welcome.

The evidence shows that pain's extreme unpleasantness after injury is not caused by the brain at all (ok maybe some of it but definitely not most of it) but by something else that many scientists are way too selfish to say that they don't understand yet.

Internal pain is experienced through a mechanism called "interoception". Do watch this really interesting lecture by Anil Seth. This lecture explains the function, which is a subconscious brain function, used only for control of internal organ functions.
External sensory pain is a conscious experience and this is the brain region which is rendered unconscious when a person is under anesthesia.

and this;

Abstract,
The transmission of pain signalling involves the cytoskeleton, but mechanistically this is poorly understood. We recently demonstrated that the capsaicin receptor TRPV1, a non‐selective cation channel expressed by nociceptors that is capable of detecting multiple pain‐producing stimuli, directly interacts with the tubulin cytoskeleton. We hypothesized that the tubulin cytoskeleton is a downstream effector of TRPV1 activation. Here we show that activation of TRPV1 results in the rapid disassembly of microtubules, but not of the actin or neurofilament cytoskeletons. TRPV1 activation mainly affects dynamic microtubules that contain tyrosinated tubulins, whereas stable microtubules are apparently unaffected. The C‐terminal fragment of TRPV1 exerts a stabilizing effect on microtubules when over‐expressed in F11 cells. These findings suggest that TRPV1 activation may contribute to cytoskeleton remodelling and so influence nociception.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2005.03551.x

I like to believe scientists are some of the few honest people in any endeavor. And there is always falsification before any proposition is officially accepted as theory.

So far any opposing posits of microtubular functions, citing "impossible environmental conditions", have been debunked and the hypothesis stands, unproven but also unfalsified.

 

[Write4U]

Yes but don't forget that what you are saying here is that:

a)Quantum effects govern macroscopic phenomena in microtubules.
b)Microtubules have consciousness
c)Quantum phenomena cause consciousness
d)Quantum phenomena cause consciousness through microtubules
All at once.

OK,
a) depends on the size and composition of the quanta.
b) no such claim has been made. The claim is that microtubules are organic computers, but may be organic quantum computers, using elctro-chemical qubits.
c) this is contributed by Roger Penrose. He envisions a quantum shift as an experiential event, a physical "BING".
I haven't read much by Penrose, except his respected standing in the scientific community as a kind of knowledge baseline.
d) this is what ORCH-OR attemps to establish. A form of hive consciousness

Orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR) is a biological philosophy of mind that postulates that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons, rather than the conventional view that it is a product of connections between neurons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

Those are too many assumptions that each one of them is debatable. Can you blame me for being skeptical and unwilling to follow these leaps at once without convincing evidence??

Not at all. I am just as skeptical as the next person interested in good science. IMO, the importance of the knowledge warrants thorough investigation. There is one "common denominator". All eukaryotic organisms and a few old prokaryotic organisms possess microtubules and they are able to function efficiently in all organisms that possess them. Watch some of the animated illustrations which clearly show computational aspects to the work being performed.

If you will take the time to do some research you will find that those initial objections have already been answered, except for (d), admittedly the most delicate part of the proposition.
Emotional experience.

 

[Write4U]

A good debunking for the psiedoscientific woo that readers can start with:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_consciousness

Well, AFAIK, this debunking has been debunked. Just because someone say that they have debunked something does not mean that they know more than the scientist who is making the claim in the first place.

Was a time when scientists were drawn and quartered for making a scientific proposition. Hypatia is but one example of a bona fide scientist being branded as a witch performing witchcraft and being cut to pieces.
Galileo was another. Not only did he have to recant his hypothesis, he was forbidden to even speak of it.

Censorship is sometimes also driven by self-preservation and financial considerations, no?

 

[Write4U]

I don't think that we should exaggerate the tubules importance or speculate too fancifully about them.
Eukaryotic cells are filled with a whole variety of little structures called organelles. Microtubules are only one of many kinds of organelles

Yes but organellas are not responsible for cell division, microtubules are, they can make perfect copies of cells in accordance with DNA instructions, MITOSIS.

Microtubules are the functional division mechanism of an entire cell and everything that's in it. There is nothing else like it. Microtubules are the fundamental pattern forming machines of all biology that is able to evolve into more complex patterns.

 

[exchemist]

There are a billion active microtubules in the body, each a nano-scale bi-directional electro-chemical computer. It is no great leap to visualize a functional "hive mind".......

[snip]

BINGO!

 

[Yazata]

Yes but organellas are not responsible for cell division, microtubules are

Microtubules are organelles. Organelles are organized functional structures inside a eukaryotic cell, analogous to organs in the larger multicellular organism. Besides microtubules, they include the nucleus (with its nuclear membrane), DNA (sometimes wound around histone proteins into chromatin and organized into chromosomes), all sorts of chemically selective pores and pumps (proteins that control what chemicals enter and leave the cell, sometimes pumping them across chemical gradients), cytoplasm (which isn't just a featureless fluid, but rather a seething mass of molecules), ribosomes (they receive the mRNA and catalyze protein synthesis), filaments (of various sorts, not just microtubules but several sorts of protein chains and ropes that sometimes don't have a lumen), and many more organelles like mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum, Golgi apparatus, lysosomes, vacuoles, chloroplasts and centrioles. (They all have their own stories.) Specialized call types will sometimes have specialized organelles. All of the organelles have some function and many are vital, the cell can't survive without them.

Basic overview of organelles

https://open.oregonstate.education/aandp/chapter/3-2-the-cytoplasm-and-cellular-organelles/

More detail

http://medcell.med.yale.edu/lectures/cellular_organization.php

Details on microtubules and microfilaments, which are similar but very different. (Different proteins, different structure, different functions in many cases.)

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/microtubules-and-filaments-14052932/

they can make perfect copies of cells in accordance with DNA instructions, MITOSIS.

I don't think that the microtubules (or perhaps actin filaments more accurately) are making copies of cells. Cell division is a more complicated process and they are only playing one role. They are more like little intracellular muscles that pull the copied DNA strands apart. The copying itself is a complicated process overseen by (protein) enzymes like DNA polymerase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_replication

Microtubules are the functional division mechanism of an entire cell and everything that's in it.

Or part of it. There's more going on than microtubules.

There is nothing else like it. Microtubules are the fundamental pattern forming machines of all biology that is able to evolve into more complex patterns.

Way too grandiose and rather inaccurate, in my opinion. Lots of fascinating things are happening inside cells, and microtubules are only one part of it.

If you get yourself too obsessively focused on microtubules, you will just blind yourself to the amazing complexity of cell biology.

... and we still aren't really any closer to tying it together with consciousness. That just looks like a gratuitous speculation to me.

 

[Write4U]

BINGO!

Thank you.

In biology, quorum sensing is the ability to detect and to respond to cell population density by gene regulation. As one example, quorum sensing (QS) enables bacteria to restrict the expression of specific genes to the high cell densities at which the resulting phenotypes will be most beneficial. Many species of bacteria use quorum sensing to coordinate gene expression according to the density of their local population. In similar fashion, some social insects use quorum sensing to determine where to nest.

i.e. quorum sensing is a form of hivemind.

In addition to its function in biological systems, quorum sensing has several useful applications for computing and robotics. In general, quorum sensing can function as a decision-making process in any decentralized system in which the components have: (a) a means of assessing the number of other components they interact with and (b) a standard response once a threshold number of components is detected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_sensing

Microtubules pass these requirements, plus much more. Moreover, a threshold function suggests a form of quantum processing.

Unit 5: Cell Communication, Cell Cycle and Meiosis,

Cells communicate through their own language of chemical signals. Different compounds, such as hormones and neurotransmitters, act like words and phrases, telling a cell about the environment around it or communicating messages.

microtubules process such values

Direct communication: use of cell junctions to connect cytoplasm, cell-cell recognition through contact with molecules on cell surfaces

Microtubules are responsible for building and maintaining the cytoskeleton and its functions.

Local communication: paracrine signaling allows cell to secrete signals to surrounding cells, synaptic is more specialized

A function of the microtubule.

Long Distance communication: hormones are sent through the bloodstream, nerve signals travel through spinal cord

Neural networks are the transport networks of active microtubules throughout the body. I elieve its also called "neural scaffolding".

The Cell: A Molecular Approach. 2nd edition.
Structure, Assembly, and Dynamic Instability of Microtubules

In contrast to intermediate filaments, which are composed of a variety of different fibrous proteins, microtubules are composed of a single type of globular protein, called tubulin. Tubulin is a dimer consisting of two closely related 55-kd polypeptides, α-tubulin and β-tubulin. Like actin, both α- and β-tubulin are encoded by small families of related genes. In addition, a third type of tubulin (γ-tubulin) is specifically localized to the centrosome, where it plays a critical role in initiating microtubule assembly (discussed shortly).

Tubulin dimers polymerize to form microtubules, which generally consist of 13 linear protofilaments assembled around a hollow core (Figure 11.37). The protofilaments, which are composed of head-to-tail arrays of tubulin dimers, are arranged in parallel. Consequently, microtubules (like actin filaments) are polar structures with two distinct ends: a fast-growing plus end and a slow-growing minus end. This polarity is an important consideration in determining the direction of movement along microtubules, just as the polarity of actin filaments defines the direction of myosin movement.

The Centrosome and Microtubule Organization

The microtubules in most cells extend outward from a microtubule-organizing center, in which the minus ends of microtubules are anchored. In animal cells, the major microtubule-organizing center is the centrosome, which is located adjacent to the nucleus near the center of interphase (nondividing) cells (Figure 11.39). During mitosis, microtubules similarly extend outward from duplicated centrosomes to form the mitotic spindle, which is responsible for the separation and distribution of chromosomes to daughter cells. The centrosome thus plays a key role in determining the intracellular organization of microtubules, although most details of its function remain a mystery.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9932/

 

[Write4U]

Microtubules are organelles

No they are not. Microtubules are polymers consisting of two tubulins. One of its functions is the transport of organelles.

Organelle Transport and Intracellular Organization

One of the major roles of microtubules is to transport membrane vesicles and organelles through the cytoplasm of eukaryotic cells. As already discussed, such cytoplasmic organelle transport is particularly evident in nerve cell axons, which may extend more than a meter in length.

Ribosomes are present only in the cell body and dendrites, so proteins, membrane vesicles, and organelles (e.g., mitochondria) must be transported from the cell body to the axon. Via video-enhanced microscopy, the transport of membrane vesicles and organelles in both directions can be visualized along axon microtubules, where kinesin and dynein carry their cargoes to and from the tips of the axons, respectively.

For example, secretory vesicles containing neurotransmitters are carried from the Golgi apparatus to the terminal branches of the axon by kinesin. In the reverse direction, cytoplasmic dynein transports endocytic vesicles from the axon back to the cell body

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9833/

Microtubules are nucleated and organized by microtubule organizing centers (MTOCs), such as the centrosome found in the center of many animal cells or the basal bodies found in cilia and flagella, or the spindle pole bodies found in most fungi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule

 

[globali]

Note also that the only uncontroversial intelligence we know so far does not have much to do with microtubules. Just mentioning it.

 

[Write4U]

Note also that the only uncontroversial intelligence we know so far does not have much to do with microtubules. Just mentioning it.

I understand, but perhaps we've been looking in wrong corner for answers.

I believe that a proven biological computer warrants further looking into. It is obvious I'm not alone.