Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[DaveC426913]

What allows for such "mirroring" ability of the brain, unless it is at microscale.

What???

You exceeded <latest popular basketball player> with your hang time on that leap.

 

[Write4U]

What???

You exceeded <latest popular basketball player> with your hang time on that leap.

Yep, I jump high for slam dunks. Mirror patterns emerge all the time in nature. Plato's dodecahedron is a mirrored and mirroring pattern. IMO, symmetry consists of two opposite mirror patterns.

Reflection symmetry, line symmetry, mirror symmetry, mirror-image symmetry, is symmetry with respect to reflection. That is, a figure which does not change upon undergoing a reflection has reflectional symmetry.

In 2D there is a line/axis of symmetry, in 3D a plane of symmetry. An object or figure which is indistinguishable from its transformed image is called mirror symmetric.

Figures with the axes of symmetry drawn in. The figure with no axes is asymmetric.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_symmetry

Homochirality,
Many of the essential molecules for life on Earth can exist in two mirror-image forms, referred to as "left-handed" and "right-handed", but living organisms do not use both. Proteins are exclusively composed of left-handed amino acids; RNA and
DNA contain only right-handed sugars. This phenomenon is known as
homochirality.[8] It is not known whether homochirality emerged before or after life, whether the building blocks of life must have this particular chirality, or indeed whether life needs to be homochiral.[9] Protein chains built from amino acids of mixed chirality tend not to fold or function as catalysts, but mirror-image proteins have been constructed that work the same but on substrates of opposite handedness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_life

and a specific brain function by "mirror neurons".

Birds have been shown to have imitative resonance behaviors and neurological evidence suggests the presence of some form of mirroring system.[4][5] In humans, brain activity consistent with that of mirror neurons has been found in the premotor cortex, the supplementary motor area, the primary somatosensory cortex and the inferior parietal cortex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

 

[Write4U]

Microtubules transport neural information!
Microtubules allow abstract thought!
Microtubules gave Rene Descartes all his best ideas!

Microtubules are necessary for life itself! And almost certainly played a part in the emergence of consciousness.

Did you know an octopus is color-blind, yet is able to imitate colored objects in great detail.
How does it do that without consciously "seeing color"?
How does it do that "in the dark"?

Figure 1
A common octopus (Octopus vulgaris) changes both color and texture after being approached by Dr. Roger Hanlon (used with permission).
© 2016 Current Biology Courtesy of Roger Hanlon, Marine Biological Laboratory All rights reserved.

There has to be a "mirror function", else the octopus would not be able to copy the pattern.

 

[exchemist]

Microtubules are necessary for life itself! And almost certainly played a part in the emergence of consciousness.

Did you know an octopus is color-blind, yet is able to imitate colored objects in great detail.
How does it do that without consciously "seeing color"?
How does it do that "in the dark"?

Figure 1
A common octopus (Octopus vulgaris) changes both color and texture after being approached by Dr. Roger Hanlon (used with permission).
© 2016 Current Biology Courtesy of Roger Hanlon, Marine Biological Laboratory All rights reserved.

There has to be a "mirror function", else the octopus would not be able to copy the pattern.

Hysterical and incoherent ballocks.

We've been through it just a few days ago. Prokaryotes - which last time I checked are, er, alive, right? - apparently don't make use of microtubules.

And for the fifth time, there is no evidence they are involved in neural activity at all, let alone the subset of it we call "consciousness".

And the octopus has nothing to do with any of this.

I seriously start to wonder if you have some kind of mental condition.

 

[exchemist]

I'm trying to find microtubules in octopi. No luck so far. I'm betting of the few things we have in common, microtubules might be one of them.
Where have I claimed that ? My claim is that microtubules may well be the smallest commonly shared neural information transit system, which has evolved to the point of ability for self-reference and abstract thought, such as "I think, therefore I am".

What is wrong with your simple reasoning ability?

An octopus is an animal.

Animals are composed of eukaryote cells.

Ergo, an octopus has microtubules in every cell of its body.

But...so what? So does a tapeworm.

 

[iceaura]

Did you know an octopus is color-blind, yet is able to imitate colored objects in great detail.
How does it do that without consciously "seeing color"?

They apparently use chromatic aberration to register colors - their eyes are built to create it and control it, rather than minimize it as with most eyes.
This is a property or capability of the large structure - the whole eye - rather than the internal features of individual cells.
https://phys.org/news/2016-07-explanation-cephalopods-black-white-vision.html

Their mental organization, meanwhile, is radically different from that of any vertebrate - seven or eight mutually coordinated but semi-independent neural centers or "brains", with each arm having its own, and very little of it - apparently - devoted to social interaction.

 

[exchemist]

They apparently use chromatic aberration to register colors - their eyes are built to create it and control it, rather than minimize it as with most eyes.
This is a property or capability of the large structure - the whole eye - rather than the internal features of individual cells.
https://phys.org/news/2016-07-explanation-cephalopods-black-white-vision.html

Their mental organization, meanwhile, is radically different from that of any vertebrate - seven or eight mutually coordinated but semi-independent neural centers or "brains", with each arm having its own, and very little of it - apparently - devoted to social interaction.

That is fascinating. Chromatic aberration. Makes perfect sense. Thanks for this.

 

[billvon]

Microtubules create empathy!
Microtubules allow intelligence!
Microtubules are quantum computers!
Microtubules will save the world!
Microtubules are all you need to know!
Microtubules transport neural information!
Microtubules allow abstract thought!
Microtubules gave Rene Descartes all his best ideas!
Microtubules are necessary for life itself!
Microtubules allow blind octopi to see!
Microtubules give you mirrors!
Microtubules give you sentience!
Microtubules are the reason for sophisticated brains!
Microtubules make everyone think Write4U is really smart!

 

[DaveC426913]

Mirror patterns emerge all the time in nature.

And therefore: microscale!
And therefore, microtubules!

Sorry, W4U, I can't help you. I'd say your cheese has slipped off its cracker.

 

[Yazata]

Microtubules are necessary for life itself!

So are cell membranes. So are proteins. So are DNA and RNA. So are...

Microtubules are interesting and important, sure. But they aren't the essence of life itself.

I'm inclined to define 'life' more functionally. Life shouldn't be identified with one or another cellular component. It's more a matter of what all those components are doing in concert, the functions that they are performing (metabolism, reproduction...)

And almost certainly played a part in the emergence of consciousness.

"Almost certainly"? Is there some justification for thinking that? I don't believe it, so what might convince me?

 

[Write4U]

Microtubules are interesting and important, sure. But they aren't the essence of life itself.

That was a little impertinent of me.
Of course bio-molecules are required for life. But not all bio-molecules. According to Hazen, only a few hundred different bio-molecules are present in humans and other hominids.

Of real interest may be that all hominids have 48 chromosomes, but humans have only 46
total. This is due to the fusion of 2 chromosomes in our ancestor creating a single much longer chromosome than the two individual chromosomes in apes and possibly another step in the evolution of sophisticated human brains.

My focus is on the emergence of consciousness and the few actual commonly shared denominators for the reception, processing and transmission of information.

It is no use of talking about muscles when addressing consciousness.
OTOH, microtubules seem to be a common denominator in the ability for dynamic information processing in perhaps all of nature, from single cell organisms to blue whales and everything in between.

My question is if microtubules do in fact fill that niche of "proto-conscious" or "pre-conscious" in the evolution of consciousness in neural networks.

 

[Write4U]

Yazata said,
Microtubules are interesting and important, sure. But they aren't the essence of life itself.

That was a little impertinent of me.

Of course bio-molecules are required for life. But not all bio-molecules. According to Hazen, only a few hundred different bio-molecules are present in humans and other hominids.

Of real interest may be that all hominids have 48 chromosomes, but humans have only 46
total. This is due to the fusion of 2 chromosomes in our ancestor creating a single much longer chromosome than the two individual chromosomes in apes and possibly another step in the evolution of sophisticated human brains.

My focus is on the emergence of consciousness and the few actual commonly shared denominators for the reception, processing and transmission of information.

It is no use of talking about muscles when addressing consciousness.

OTOH, microtubules seem to be a common denominator in the ability for dynamic information processing in perhaps all of nature, from single cell organisms to blue whales and everything in between.

My question is if microtubules do in fact fill that niche of "proto-conscious" or "pre-conscious" platforms in the evolution of consciousness in neural networks. Think of how long they have been around as fundamental structural parts of neurons.

Hameroff and Penrose seem to be interested in that very logical possibility, each from a different perspective.

 

[Write4U]

Hysterical and incoherent ballocks.

We've been through it just a few days ago. Prokaryotes - which last time I checked are, er, alive, right? - apparently don't make use of microtubules.

Some do. But that still proves nothing. It is quite possible that life can emerge without microtubules, but my suspicion is that consciousness cannot emerge without microtubules.

And for the fifth time, there is no evidence they are involved in neural activity at all, let alone the subset of it we call "consciousness".

From what I can see from illustrations, all neural information passes through microtubules, they are located in the tendrils and filaments.

And the octopus has nothing to do with any of this.

Well, I think so. They are the closest thing to an alien lifeform to land mammals, evolving in a completely different environment.
But they are conscious and intelligent . What, if any common denominators might indicate a fundamental bio-chemical neural structure that allows for an emergent consciousness

I seriously start to wonder if you have some kind of mental condition.

I appreciate your concern.

 

[billvon]

From what I can see from illustrations, all neural information passes through microtubules

All information also passes through water. (It's what transports the ions.) Water is more important than your little tubes.

 

[Write4U]

All information also passes through water. (It's what transports the ions.) Water is more important than your little tubes.

Not as far as computational abilities are concerned.....

 

[exchemist]

Some do. But that still proves nothing. It is quite possible that life can emerge without microtubules, but my suspicion is that consciousness cannot emerge without microtubules.
From what I can see from illustrations, all neural information passes through microtubules, they are located in the tendrils and filaments.
Well, I think so. They are the closest thing to an alien lifeform to land mammals, evolving in a completely different environment.
But they are conscious and intelligent . What, if any common denominators might indicate a fundamental bio-chemical neural structure that allows for an emergent consciousness

I appreciate your concern.

It's hopeless.

[click]

 

[billvon]

Not as far as computational abilities are concerned.....

Yes. You would have no nerve conduction without water. No nerve conduction = no computational abilities.

 

[Write4U]

Yes. You would have no nerve conduction without water. No nerve conduction = no computational abilities.

No microtubules = no neurons.
Neurons don't compute. The microtubules inside neurons compute.

 

[Write4U]

Ergo, an octopus has microtubules in every cell of its body.

That would support the notion that micro-tubules offer dynamic sensory structures which explains its remarkable ability to "mirror" its environment, no?

 

[DaveC426913]

That would support the notion that micro-tubules offer dynamic sensory structures which explains its remarkable ability to "mirror" its environment, no?

And yet, flatworms don't.

In fact, there's more than 3,458,434 species on the planet that have micro-tubules in every cell in their body, yet, of all those species, only a handf-

Oh why bother...

I think you're just yanking our chain now.