Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

The function of Microtubules are related to Schizophrenia, another mental disorder of overly stimulated consciousness, which is actually the opposite of Alzheimer's, the gradual diminishing of consciousness.
[quite]Interestingly, mice with a loss-of-function mutation of this gene exhibit synaptic hippocampal, neurotransmitter, and behavioral abnormalities analogous to those found in schizophrenia (Andrieux et al., 2002; Brun et al., 2005; Fradley et al., 2005). Most strikingly, the mothers fail to feed their pups, and this behavior is reversed by chronic, but not acute, treatment with antipsychotic medications (Andrieux et al., 2002; Brun et al., 2005). Davunetide (NAP), an 8-amino acid peptide derived from activity-dependent-neuroprotective protein (ADNP), interacts with MTs to promote neurite outgrowth and synaptogenesis.[/quote]

Interestingly, this medication diminished hyperlocomotion and improved object recognition/discrimination and spatial memory in the STOP heterozygous mouse (Merenlender-Wagner et al., 2010). Epothilone D, a MT stabilizer, was shown to reverse abnormalities in STOP-null mice, including increasing synaptic vesicle density, improving long-term potentiation, and markedly improving maternal behavior and pup survival (Andrieux et al., 2006).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3999307/

IMO, this is not a non-trivial indication of the role of MT in brain activity and the experience of consciousness.

 

[billvon]

Microtubules can spontaneously self-organize, transforming from many singular components into one large cellular structure capable of performing specific tasks. Think Transformers. How they do that, however, has remained unclear.

So do soap bubbles. They can form complex cellular structures that ALWAYS magically minimize their surface area. So either they can do complex math - or their behavior is the result of simple physical processes.

 

[Write4U]

So either they can do complex math - or their behavior is the result of simple physical processes.

No, nothing needs to be able to do complex math - their behavior is the result of physical processes in accordance to strict relative values and mathematical functions. Mathematics is a universal potential. It has to be, else we would not be able to use it with remarkable precision. We can do complex math and it works. I believe that is called proof?

You don't need to know math to be subject to it. Mathematics is a transcendent universal potential.
But many organisms use math to survive, even if they are not aware that they are using it. How many animals use triangulation to estimate distance and angle of attack? The slime mold solves mazes, by a mathematical function. A spider's web is a marvel of mathematical engineering. Does the spider "know"? Apparently she knows how to execute a physical function with a pretty good idea of perfection and structural strength. Just look at it!

https://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/138...rning-eastern-indian-state-odisha-reuters.jpg

It's not just humans who use mathematics, we just know that we do, which gives us an overall advantage, in spite of our average physical strengths and physical abilities.

Physical stuff has values. It is the interaction of physical values in accordance with mathematical functions (constants), that yield specific and repetitive results from the interaction of physical stuff, or as Tegmark calls it, "mathematical patterns". Often it allows humans to copy the natural functions and create "artificial patterns" based on the applicable mathematics of the physical objects.

This is true outside of human knowledge or beliefs. The universe is founded on "relative values and mathematical functions". Nothing mysterious about that. It's very physical.
But it must be orderly. That is contained in the Logic

 

[billvon]

No, nothing needs to be able to do complex math - their behavior is the result of physical processes in accordance to strict relative values and mathematical functions.

Exactly. They perform simple physical functions that, when organized into bubbles, show a high degree of complexity. But there is no magic, no secret math, no internal communication, nothing that imbues soap bubbles with higher functionality - just physics.

Just like microtubules.

 

[exchemist]

The function of Microtubules are related to Schizophrenia, another mental disorder of overly stimulated consciousness, which is actually the opposite of Alzheimer's, the gradual diminishing of consciousness.
[quite]Interestingly, mice with a loss-of-function mutation of this gene exhibit synaptic hippocampal, neurotransmitter, and behavioral abnormalities analogous to those found in schizophrenia (Andrieux et al., 2002; Brun et al., 2005; Fradley et al., 2005). Most strikingly, the mothers fail to feed their pups, and this behavior is reversed by chronic, but not acute, treatment with antipsychotic medications (Andrieux et al., 2002; Brun et al., 2005). Davunetide (NAP), an 8-amino acid peptide derived from activity-dependent-neuroprotective protein (ADNP), interacts with MTs to promote neurite outgrowth and synaptogenesis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3999307/

IMO, this is not a non-trivial indication of the role of MT in brain activity and the experience of consciousness.

I quite agree.

 

[Write4U]

Exactly. They perform simple physical functions that, when organized into bubbles, show a high degree of complexity. But there is no magic, no secret math, no internal communication, nothing that imbues soap bubbles with higher functionality - just physics.

I agree, mathematical functions are not magical, quite the opposite. They are Logical.

As to communication, all exchange of physical values is a form of communication. And mathematical values and functions are the language of physical communication.

Just like microtubules.

Microtubules are information processors. I believe that has been established.
Hence they must be functioning within a mathematical framework. Information processing is not a random function.
This is why theoretically all natural phenomena can be described (symbolized) with human maths. All of science rests on our ability to qualify and quantify natural phenomena.

To say "it takes a bunch of trees to build a house" is correct in a physical sense, but it is less than accurate of exactly how much wood it takes to build a house. It takes a Bill of Materials (list of "values" required to build a house).
A "bubble" has very specific values, dependent on the physical constituents. Not just any bubble will do.....

I believe it is obvious that Nature is a great, if unwitting, architect. It is capable of creating the most astoundingly complex patterns. And it can only do so via processing relative values with mathematical functions, it simply has no choice in the process.
1 + 1 = 2 is not a physical equation. It's an immutable transcendent mathematical equation.

All physical patterns have inherent relative values and potentials and their interactions are always mathematical in essence. Nature is mathematical in essence.
I believe we have practically proven this scientifically over the past few centuries........

 

[billvon]

Microtubules are information processors. I believe that has been established.

Well, as much as soap bubbles are information processors that perform complex math to minimize surface area. But at a basic level both are merely physical structures that obey simple physical laws.

 

[Write4U]

Well, as much as soap bubbles are information processors that perform complex math to minimize surface area. But at a basic level both are merely physical structures that obey simple physical laws.

Yes, we have no argument on any of that. It's just that simple physical laws are mathematical in essence. That's why we can translate and symbolize physical laws, which form physical structures, with human mathematics.

Tegmark identifies the simplicity of natural physical laws. He claims 32 values and a dozen or so equations can explain all physical phenomena in the universe. I like the simple elegance of that. It is the most unmagical perspective that can theoretically explain everything. All other theories of information sharing without citing relative values and mathematical functions are actually more magical in content.

If you deny the mathematical essence of nature, you are in effect trying to falsify science. It can't be done. Things are not just physical patterns, they are mathematically ordered physical patterns.

 

[Write4U]

Discovering Constants
The constants are generally arrived at by observation, either directly (as when one measures the charge of an electron or the speed of light) or by describing a relationship that is measurable and then deriving the value of the constant (as in the case of the gravitational constant). Note that these constants are sometimes written in different units, so if you find another value that isn't exactly the same as it is here, it may have been converted into another set of units.[/quote]

This list of significant physical constants⁠—along with some commentary on when they are used⁠—is not exhaustive. These constants should help you understand how to think about these physical concepts.

https://www.thoughtco.com/fundamental-physical-constants-2699436

We must translate these constants into mathematical language in order to be able to understand the physical concepts of mathematically self-organizing patterns. Else it remains magical forever. Adam created from mud is a physical description of an evolutionary process that took some 4 billion years. Both descriptions are correct. Only one is accurate. The other is magical.

 

[Write4U]

Well, as much as soap bubbles are information processors that perform complex math to minimize surface area. But at a basic level both are merely physical structures that obey simple physical laws.

Yes, but if you want to know the mechanics of information processing, you can only understand reality from a mathematical perspective.
This innocent "random bubble" was the first mathematical self-organizing pattern which mathematically evolved into the human cell as we know it, using the same "quantifiable" self-organizing pattern of a mathematically self-forming "bubble". A bubble that could make a copy of itself from the same informational values is the origin where human existence and relationship to reality started.
I guess, what I'm trying to say is that universal physical information sharing is inherent orderly, and therefore mathematical in essence and function. It is a logical mutually emerging duality of the "particle/wave" phenomenon.

The physics are the physical expression of potential mathematical patterns.
Existence (duration) = time
Physics = physical expressions of mathematical potentials.
Physics is the study of the mechanics (mathematics) of matter.
Dynamic physics creates a mathematically variable exchange of information (values), (GR?)

Is it unreasonable to dismiss this scientifically defensible position that the "essence" of the universe is a recurring theme of mathematical patterns, starting with the three fundamentals. It is not a question of either/or , but that both are eminently compatible with the "evidence", but from a different perspective of functionality.
Science; What?
Science : How?
Mathematics: Me!

It makes theism so easy to understand. It looks intelligent, but it isn't conscious. The processing of "relative values" via "mathematical functions".
The obvious answer that satisfies ALL fundamental questions of "why", is the third option of recognizing a quasi-intelligent universal mechanics of information sharing has to be of a mathematical nature. Mathematics are a transendent pattern of permissible and prohibiting laws of nature. Else how could we even use the term ; "Universal Constants" ?

Constant = Mathematical............... I think so.....

 

[DaveC426913]

The slime mold solves mazes

Apparently, even life isn't necessary. Even the simplest chemicals can solve mazes.

 

[Write4U]

Yes, dynamical interactions in accordance to specific values and mathematical functions creates a quasi-intelligent evolutionary chemical progression which leads to the formation, among others, of biological compounds which are then selected for survivability by natural selection. A whole universe of dynamically interactive natural chemical resources and 14 billion years of "experimentation" has produced the earth biome and everything on it we can observe today. I think it's more than likely that life exists elsewhere in the universe. The combined richness of universal material resources and time-frames make it mathematically "necessary" that life evolves, as it did on earth.

 

[Write4U]

Apparently, even life isn't necessary. Even the simplest chemicals can solve mazes.

In principle exactly the same as the slime mold. However, as the slime mold is a bio-chemical pseudo-pod it must hunt for food and where we had to prepared the maze for the specific chemical reaction experiment, the slime mold solves the maze by laying down and marking its own chemical paths so that it "knows" where it has been and which is the is the shortest path to food. The slime mold is able to create it own information sharing network and act on the sensory inputs from the exterior environment. Clearly an evolutionary step up from the purely reactive functions of chemicals, the formation of bio-chemicals and chemically functional cells clearly show a increasing level of "self-reference" of awareness and knowledge of the environment. Are these simple examples not representative of the evolving proto-types of consciousness and conscious behaviors?

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, dynamical interactions in accordance to specific values and mathematical functions creates a quasi-intelligent evolutionary chemical progression which leads to the formation, among others, of biological compounds which are then selected for survivability by natural selection.

You forgot unfolding and enfolding.

 

[exchemist]

You forgot unfolding and enfolding.

Are you being a foul cone again?

 

[Write4U]

You forgot unfolding and enfolding.

That's Bohmian Mechanics...... David Bohm,

The Two Kinds of Order

Einstein once spoke of the physicist David Bohm as his successor. Bohm introduced concepts of Implicate Order and Explicate Order.

Bohm defined explicate order as the order of the physical world. He defined implicate order as the source of explicate order, and as an underlying whole that physical form constantly unfolds out from and enfolds back into.

Others had constructed related models of two orders, including Henri Bergson and William Yeats in the early 1900's. Bohm meant his concepts to replace order and disorder although he was not able to convince other scientists of this necessity, and Bohm struggled with depression at not being able to convince the scientific community of the scientific value of his discoveries.

In describing Implicate Order Bohm writes:
"This order is not to be understood solely in terms of a regular arrangement of objects (e.g., in rows) or as a regular arrangement of events (e.g. in a series). Rather, a total order is contained in some implicit sense, in each region of space and time. Now the word 'implicit' is based on the verb 'to implicate'. This means 'to fold inward' (as multiplication means 'folding many times'). So we may be led to explore the notion that in some sense each region contains a total structure 'enfolded' within it."

http://everythingforever.com/Bohm.htm

I like that mental picture of a self-referential mathematical order, enfolded as the implicate order, unfolded as the explicate order.

 

[Write4U]

A recent update from Stuart Hameroff

 

[Write4U]

In reference to "How small can be our transistor", Physics & Math

A Biopolymer Transistor: Electrical Amplification by Microtubules

Abstract
Microtubules (MTs) are important cytoskeletal structures engaged in a number of specific cellular activities, including vesicular traffic, cell cyto-architecture and motility, cell division, and information processing within neuronal processes. MTs have also been implicated in higher neuronal functions, including memory and the emergence of “consciousness”.

How MTs handle and process electrical information, however, is heretofore unknown. Here we show new electrodynamic properties of MTs. Isolated, taxol-stabilized MTs behave as biomolecular transistors capable of amplifying electrical information. Electrical amplification by MTs can lead to the enhancement of dynamic information, and processivity in neurons can be conceptualized as an “ionic-based” transistor, which may affect, among other known functions, neuronal computational capabilities.

https://www.cell.com/biophysj/fulltext/S0006-3495(06)72638-8

 

[Write4U]

You forgot unfolding and enfolding.

Not really.
They were contained in this sentence;

The physics are the physical expression of potential mathematical patterns.

Or if fully unpacked: "The physics are the physical unfolded expression of potential enfolded mathematical patterns".........

 

[DaveC426913]

Not really.
They were contained in this sentence; Or if fully unpacked: "The physics are the physical unfolded expression of potential enfolded mathematical patterns".........

Theeeere it is.