Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

All neural activities? What happened to the neurotransmitters and the action potentials and the potassium and sodium ions and all that?

Are these action potentials self-referential? Microtubules are.

Most of the stuff you quote about microtubules emphasises one of two things: their structural role in supporting the cell, or their role in assisting cell division. A lot of what you quote doesn't even mention quantum effects in the microtubules, let alone information processing and the like.

I have given you a years worth of research material. If you don't read it, I cannot help you, without going back myself and rereading what prompted me to post what I already posted.
This thread has 15 pages full of supporting, opposing, and practical scientific research links. Whatever you are asking me, I have already provided supporting evidence at the time I made the original post. If you have a specific question it may well be found in the link I provided.

The statement that "the human body runs on microtubules" strikes me as just more fanboy hyperbole from you.

OK, what does the human body run on? Energy? How is energy distributed? What is wrong with the concept of microtubules? They are the processors in photosynthesis. Plants run on microtubules.........

If you didn't know that, you do now. If you did, you're cherry-picking.

"Dividing without centrioles: innovative plant microtubule organizing centres organize mitotic spindles in bryophytes, the earliest extant lineages of land plants".

Background and aims

As remnants of the earliest land plants, the bryophytes (liverworts, mosses and hornworts) are important in understanding microtubule organization in plant cells. Land plants have an anastral mitotic spindle that forms in the absence of centrosomes, and a cytokinetic apparatus comprised of a predictive preprophase band (PPB) before mitosis and a phragmoplast after mitosis.

These microtubule arrays have no counterpart in animal cells and the nature of the plant microtubule organizing centre (MTOC) remained an enigma for many years until antibodies to γ-tubulin, an essential component of the MTOC in all eukaryotes, became available for tracing the origin of microtubule arrays

.

and
Introduction [quote]Plant microtubules underlie all phases of plant development, such as determination of the division plane, cell shaping and wall deposition, in addition to mitosis/meiosis and cytokinesis.[/quote]

Unlike animal cells, where microtubules are nucleated at discrete centriole-containing centrosomes, plant cells produce a bewildering assortment of microtubule arrays in the absence of centrosomes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3240993/

 

[Write4U]

@ Bells
click

 

[exchemist]

Are these action potentials self-referential? Microtubules are.
I have given you a years worth of research material. If you don't read it, I cannot help you, without going back myself and rereading what prompted me to post what I already posted.
This thread has 15 pages full of supporting, opposing, and practical scientific research links. Whatever you are asking me, I have already provided supporting evidence at the time I made the original post. If you have a specific question it may well be found in the link I provided.
OK, what does the human body run on? Energy? How is energy distributed? What is wrong with the concept of microtubules? They are the processors in photosynthesis. Plants run on microtubules.........

If you didn't know that, you do now. If you did, you're cherry-picking.

"Dividing without centrioles: innovative plant microtubule organizing centres organize mitotic spindles in bryophytes, the earliest extant lineages of land plants".

Background and aims and
Introduction [quote]Plant microtubules underlie all phases of plant development, such as determination of the division plane, cell shaping and wall deposition, in addition to mitosis/meiosis and cytokinesis.

Energy is distributed by ATP.

 

[exchemist]

@ Bells
click

Haven’t you already done this?

 

[exchemist]

Allow me to ask this time if you have read anything about microtubules at all?

Microtubules are involved in all neural activities including building the neural network mechanisms, the transport and dedicated delivery of information trough the neural network, and are the exclusive agent in activating and controlling mitosis.
In short, the human body runs on microtubules. Nothing wrong with that, we have billions of them......

This link provides statistics of the role microtubules play in the human biome.
https://www.proteinatlas.org/humanproteome/cell/microtubules

It also runs on water, glucose, haemoglobin and a hundred other things.

 

[Bells]

What is wrong with the concept of microtubules?

Nothing at all.

On the contrary, studies in microtubules is vital for cancer researchers. And the reason for that is simple:

Emerging evidence suggests that tubulins and microtubule-associated proteins may play a role in a range of cellular stress responses, thus conferring survival advantage to cancer cells.​

The ability to destabilise and inhibit microtubules is quite important in cancer treatments.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4061531/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3946048/
https://dmm.biologists.org/content/3/5-6/304
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30158-6
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_and_development_of_tubulin_inhibitors

 

[Write4U]

Energy is distributed by ATP.

And that precludes the use of microtubules?

 

[Write4U]

Haven’t you already done this?

Consider it an expression of frustration.

 

[Write4U]

It also runs on water, glucose, haemoglobin and a hundred other things.

Yes, those are the chemical information, the fuel on which the organisms run, microtubules (neurons) are the processors.

 

[Write4U]

Nothing at all.

Thank you Bells, for that encouraging answer and the links. These are the contributions I had hoped for....

 

[Write4U]

The ability to destabilise and inhibit microtubules is quite important in cancer treatments.

Yes, when a run-away mitosis occurs, it is good to be able to inhibit the microtubules that are responsible.

AFAIK, Hameroff suggests that the same principle holds for Alzheimer disease, except instead of "inhibiting", the goal is "stabilizing " and "rebuilding"

 

[Yazata]

Are these action potentials self-referential? Microtubules are.

They are? Can you defend that statement because frankly, I don't believe it.

I have given you a years worth of research material.

Most of your links have nothing to do with your thesis. Yes, we know that microtubules exist. Yes, we know that they play important roles in many eukaryotic cells. Yes we know that slime molds and Fibonnacci sequences can be pretty. But how does any of that support the thesis that microtubules are little minds and the seat of consciousness? (Sometimes your posts seem to be little more than stream-of-consciousness.)

OK, what does the human body run on? Energy? How is energy distributed?

Exchemist has already addressed adenosine triphosphate. While there is more than one way that energy is distributed, ATP is by far the major one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate

What is wrong with the concept of microtubules?

Nothing. As long as we don't rush off of on flights of fancy and start attributing hugely complex functions to them that they almost certainly don't have. They aren't likely to be the secret of mind or of all of biology.

They are the processors in photosynthesis.

There you go again... I don't believe that and think that it's almost certainly untrue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroplast#Structure

"Dividing without centrioles: innovative plant microtubule organizing centres organize mitotic spindles in bryophytes, the earliest extant lineages of land plants".

Background and aims and
Introduction [quote]Plant microtubules underlie all phases of plant development, such as determination of the division plane, cell shaping and wall deposition, in addition to mitosis/meiosis and cytokinesis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3240993/

What has that got to do with mind and consciousness? You seem to be off one one of your stream of consciousness tangents again. Yes, microtubules are interesting and important, but don't push it farther than it can reasonably go.

I fully and enthusiastically agree that cell biology is fascinating. But the best way to study it isn't to fixate on one obsessive and probably rather unlikely idea and then look for anything that seems cool that seems to you to have some vague relationship to that central idea.

Study cell biology the normal way. That doesn't require that you attend a university or take university classes. Here's a free creative-commons online cell biology text that I've downloaded for myself and you might like too. (It's a pretty advanced book that's intended for university biology majors. But you should be able to handle it.):

https://dc.uwm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=biosci_facbooks_bergtrom

Hopefully you will find other ideas in there that excite you and you want to talk about.

 

[Write4U]

Energy is distributed by ATP.

I think you'll find that ATP has deep connection with microtubules.

Abstract: Microtubules, or cytoskeletal polymers composed of the protein tubulin, form long hollow tubes in the cell and are responsible for many critical roles. Previous research has shown that depletion of ATP causes microtubules to become stable, i.e. resistant to depolymerization.

It has also been shown that enhanced stability of microtubules correlates with increased tubulin acetylation, a common microtubule posttranslation modification. ATP-depletion is a severe metabolic stressor, and as such, we expect that this treatment would activate AMP kinase, an enzyme deemed the “master regulator” of metabolism. When activated by a variety of stressors, this enzyme can initiate a program of limited ‘self-destruction’ called autophagy, which requires microtubules for the transport of autophagosomes

Gundersen et al (1987) showed that 6 microtubules made stable by ATP depletion were heavily detyrosinated. Although the method of ATP-depletion is not physiological, cells can encounter sudden stresses that lead to drops in ATP concentrations, such as hypoxia, glucose deficiency, and decreased pH levels.

All of these discoveries hinted that there is a connection between the control of metabolism (as represented by the depletion of ATP) and microtubules. Furthermore, there might be a link between cellular energy and posttranslational modifications of microtubules, but more experimentation is necessary.

In a recent review, Cassimeris et al. (2012) discussed evidence for the close association between acetylated microtubules and the mitochondria, which alludes to the idea that microtubules play a role in metabolism. It is possible that dynamic instability is part of the metabolic function of the microtubules (Cassimeris et al., 2012). In addition to being closely associated with the mitochondria, acetylated microtubules have been shown to be crucial for endoplasmic reticulum (ER) dynamics (Friedman et al., 2010).

https://digitalworks.union.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1933&context=theses

 

[Write4U]

They are? Can you defend that statement because frankly, I don't believe it.

According to Hameroff, the two tubulins that make up a microtubules allow for electro-chemical action in opposite directions. This is a self referential function, no?

Hameroff proposes that this function creates a superposition and is the reason for the concept of qu-bits.
This is the main item of contention being debated in neural science.

Note the polarities

Microtubules are part of the cytoskeleton of all eukaryotic cells, however consciousness is the result of neurons in the cerebral cortex.

Microtubules are cylindrical polymers of 25 nanometers in diameter made of tubulin dimers, composed of alpha and beta monomers in a helical pathway.

In 1982, Hameroff and Watt 6 suggested that tubulin dimers act as dipoles representing information (classical) bits of information.

Microtubules act like two-dimensional Boolean switching matrices in a cellular automata. Early versions of Orch OR theory proposed a quantum version of these ideas: tubulin dimers acting as qubits (quantum bits).

A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact.

https://mappingignorance.org/2015/06/17/on-the-quantum-theory-of-consciousness/

Microtubules are part of the cytoskeleton of all eukaryotic cells, however consciousness is the result of neurons (containing microtubules) in the cerebral cortex.

IMO, the presence of microtubules in the cytoskeleton allows for the "experience" of pain throughout the body. The presence of microtubules in the cerebral cortex allows for the "experience" of thought.

Is it possible that the presence of microtubules allows for all sensory "experiences"?

But how does any of that support the thesis that microtubules are little minds and the seat of consciousness? (Sometimes your posts seem to be little more than stream-of-consciousness.)

That is not my thesis at all. Nor do I believe that is Hameroff or Penrose's thesis. No one claims that microtubules are little minds! They are little processing machines.....difference!

No one claims that neurons are little minds!

AFAIK, microtubules act as processors, but with electro-chemical sensitivity, which according to Penrose may result in a "threshold event", a sensory experience.

The combined function of billions of microtubules allow for the emergence of sensory experiences, such as warmth, cold, pain, itching, smell, taste, sight, hearing, etc.

Does the human body or mind offer any other "processor" that might offer a different path?
The conscious and unconscious brain functions are all a result of microtubular action.

Ask Hameroff (anesthesiologist), he can selectively render the microtubules that generate consciousness and sensations, unconscious, but leave the microtubules that subconsciously control internal body functions unaffected, so they can continue to perform the interoceptive maintenance chores while the "mind" is "unconscious".

 

[Write4U]

Yes we know that slime molds and Fibonnacci sequences can be pretty. But how does any of that support the thesis that microtubules are little minds and the seat of consciousness? (Sometimes your posts seem to be little more than stream-of-consciousness.)

You're missing the point. Slime molds and single celled organisms contain microtubules which control all their functions. Microtubules are present in the earliest biological organisms. Why is that and what does that imply?

IMO, the amazing fact is that ALL eukaryotic organisms contain microtubules. They are a "common denominator" in all modern organisms, but already exist in simpler form in Prokaryotic organisms. This simplicity is considered a benefit as it allows us to study microtubules more efficiently. It allows us a peek into the past and observe the evolution and sophistication of later versions of microtubules. Its like analysing old model computers.

 

[Yazata]

To JamesR and Bells: Why isn't this thread in 'Alternative Theories'?

I'd like to ask that it be moved. Not silenced, not closed, just moved to a more appropriate forum.

It definitely isn't cell biology as that science is conventionally understood. But I'm not 100% convinced that it's 'pseudoscience' either, though I'm increasingly leaning towards that view. (Just too much grandiosity, too many speculations being presented as if they were established biology, and way too many explanatory gaps.)

I'm reminded of the kind of people who appear insisting that they can prove that Einstein is wrong with arguments that often don't make much sense. In my opinion, this is the biological version of that.

 

[Bells]

To JamesR and Bells: Why isn't this thread in 'Alternative Theories'?

I'd like to ask that it be moved. Not silenced, not closed, just moved to a more appropriate forum.

It definitely isn't cell biology as that science is conventionally understood. But I'm not 100% convinced that it's 'pseudoscience' either, though I'm increasingly leaning towards that view. (Just too much grandiosity, too many speculations being presented as if they were established biology, and way too many explanatory gaps.)

I'm reminded of the kind of people who appear insisting that they can prove that Einstein is wrong with arguments that often don't make much sense. In my opinion, this is the biological version of that.

I agree.

 

[Bells]

Yes, those are the chemical information, the fuel on which the organisms run, microtubules (neurons) are the processors.

Firstly, a neuron is not a microtutubles. The manner in which you put (neurons) in brackets infers that they are the same thing.

Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence that microtubules are "the processors".

The manner in which you worded that sentence is deliberately deceptive.

Yes, when a run-away mitosis occurs, it is good to be able to inhibit the microtubules that are responsible.

It's not 'run-away mitosis'.

The biggest issue with tubular inhibitors is the side effects.

AFAIK, Hameroff suggests that the same principle holds for Alzheimer disease, except instead of "inhibiting", the goal is "stabilizing " and "rebuilding"

Okay..

No one knows what causes Alzheimer's. No one knows if the molecular and cellular changes in the brain is the cause of Alzheimer's or caused by Alzheimer's.

There are various things that affect and are affected by Alzheimer's. Two things that affect or are connected to microtubules - which lead to the death of neurons:

Amyloid Plaques
The beta-amyloid protein involved in Alzheimer’s comes in several different molecular forms that collect between neurons. It is formed from the breakdown of a larger protein, called amyloid precursor protein. One form, beta-amyloid 42, is thought to be especially toxic. In the Alzheimer’s brain, abnormal levels of this naturally occurring protein clump together to form plaques that collect between neurons and disrupt cell function. Research is ongoing to better understand how, and at what stage of the disease, the various forms of beta-amyloid influence Alzheimer’s.

Neurofibrillary Tangles
Neurofibrillary tangles are abnormal accumulations of a protein called tau that collect inside neurons. Healthy neurons, in part, are supported internally by structures called microtubules, which help guide nutrients and molecules from the cell body to the axon and dendrites. In healthy neurons, tau normally binds to and stabilizes microtubules. In Alzheimer’s disease, however, abnormal chemical changes cause tau to detach from microtubules and stick to other tau molecules, forming threads that eventually join to form tangles inside neurons. These tangles block the neuron’s transport system, which harms the synaptic communication between neurons.

Emerging evidence suggests that Alzheimer’s-related brain changes may result from a complex interplay among abnormal tau and beta-amyloid proteins and several other factors. It appears that abnormal tau accumulates in specific brain regions involved in memory. Beta-amyloid clumps into plaques between neurons. As the level of beta-amyloid reaches a tipping point, there is a rapid spread of tau throughout the brain.​

Further reading when it comes to Alzheimer's:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324230.php

Unfortunately, treatments that target this, or as you have attempted to argue Hameroff's position of strengthening the microtubules, have not been successful.

However, at least one interesting discovery has been made and it has nothing to do with microtubules, and everything to do with gum disease:

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ow-what-causes-alzheimers-and-how-to-stop-it/

IMO, the presence of microtubules in the cytoskeleton allows for the "experience" of pain throughout the body. The presence of microtubules in the cerebral cortex allows for the "experience" of thought.

Is it possible that the presence of microtubules allows for all sensory "experiences"?

That is not my thesis at all. Nor do I believe that is Hameroff or Penrose's thesis. No one claims that microtubules are little minds! They are little processing machines.....difference!

No one claims that neurons are little minds!

AFAIK, microtubules act as processors, but with electro-chemical sensitivity, which according to Penrose may result in a "threshold event", a sensory experience.

The combined function of billions of microtubules allow for the emergence of sensory experiences, such as warmth, cold, pain, itching, smell, taste, sight, hearing, etc.

Does the human body or mind offer any other "processor" that might offer a different path?
The conscious and unconscious brain functions are all a result of microtubular action.

Ask Hameroff (anesthesiologist), he can selectively render the microtubules that generate consciousness and sensations, unconscious, but leave the microtubules that subconsciously control internal body functions unaffected, so they can continue to perform the interoceptive maintenance chores while the "mind" is "unconscious".

I should have moved this to pseudoscience..

 

[Write4U]

No one knows what causes Alzheimer's. No one knows if the molecular and cellular changes in the brain is the cause of Alzheimer's or caused by Alzheimer's.

There are various things that affect and are affected by Alzheimer's. Two things that affect or are connected to microtubules - which lead to the death of neurons:

And why are you telling me this? This is the specialty of Stuart Hameroff.
You may have missed this but it was presented in Post #1 in this thread.
Watch the videos and links I have provided. I think it is most unfair to ignore the wealth of information I provide and then come to me with profound observations which I presented in the very first post of this thread.

Note the Neurofibrillary Tangles (blue)

click

 

[Write4U]

exchemist said: ↑
Energy is distributed by ATP.

Sigh....., this was addressed by Hameroff in Post # 1 of this thread. See above @ 6.20

or see below