Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

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Not unless they are programmed by experience. Babies have the potential for intelligence. Babies are "learning organisms" which do not yet have the ability to apply skills and are totally dependent on external assistance.
in·tel·li·gence, noun.
The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills:"an eminent man of great intelligence"
synonyms intellectual/mental capacity, intellect, mind, brain, brains, ... more
Come to think of it, without the help of bacteria humans could not survive either. Humans are a microbiome.
For example, the human microbiome is the collection of bacteria, viruses, and other microorganisms that are present on or in a human body.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biome
Yes, according to people who made IT.
Note: Sophia is not female, it is a machine. (See how easy it is? And how trivial!)

If you would read the accompanying links, it would surely lessen your confusion as to the thrust of my posits.

According to the manufacturer, David Hanson, Sophia uses artificial intelligence, visual data processing and facial recognition.

The AI program analyses conversations and extracts data that allows it to improve responses in the future
.

It's an "intelligent agent".

Leading AI textbooks define the field as the study of "intelligent agents": any device that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chance of successfully achieving its goals.

A properly programmed AI will recharge itself when running low on fuel, a baby will just cry. A properly programmed AI will be able to move and perform chores, a baby just lies there.

A Roomba dust collector is functionally smarter than a baby, for a little while at least.
iRobot Corporation is an American advanced technology company founded in 1990 by three members of MIT's Artificial Intelligence Lab who designed robots for space exploration and military defense.
 
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The question is if AI can acquire "consciousness" without microtubules. Can we develop artificial microtubules?
 
@ Bells,

I am no longer going to respond to you. You're not acting in a civilized manner and your really not that important to me, to waste any further time in trying to explain what I have already explained.

If you were interested in what I have to say you would approach any misunderstandings in a different way. I do!

So why should I waste my time?

click
Goodbye!

Adult tantrums are the best..

Not even 15 minutes later....

Not unless they are programmed by experience. Babies have the potential for intelligence. Babies are "learning organisms" which do not yet have the ability to apply skills and are totally dependent on external assistance.
Hello again!

You did not read the article, did you?

Babies are not programmed.

From the article you clearly did not bother to read:

Babies and children construct theories about the world around them using the same approach scientists use to construct scientific theories. They explore and test their environment and the people in it with a systematic and experimental effort that is crucial to learning.

Gopnik recently worked with a team of researchers to demonstrate how children as young as 15 months old can learn cause-effect relationships using statistical data better than older children. Babies and young children may be better learners because their brains are more flexible or “plastic”; they are less tainted by pre-existing knowledge, which allows them to be more open-minded. Brains are not unchanging, but rather modify with every learning experience.

By combining expertise from developmental psychologists and computational scientists, humans may be able to unlock how the brains of the best learners in the world work and translate that computational power into a machine. Currently, AI requires mass amounts of data to extract patterns and conclusions. But babies, who have comparatively little data about the world around them, use a statistical evaluation called Bayesian learning. That is, an interpretation isn't based on the known frequency of an outcome — information that babies don't have — but instead on inferring the probability based on current knowledge, which adjusts continually as new information is received.

“The amazing thing about babies is they can see something once or hear a new word for the first time and they already have a good idea of what that new word could mean and how they could use that new word,” says Gopnik. “So these kind of Bayesian approaches have been good in explaining why children are so good at learning even when they don’t even have much data.”

Babies use the probabilistic model to create a variety of hypotheses by combining probabilities and possibilities to draw conclusions
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No programming involved.

It's not what they learn or know that makes them so intelligent. It is how they learn.

Unlike an AI which has to have massive amounts of data input to allow them to come up with probabilities or even recognise simple patterns, babies do that without being taught to.

Come to think of it, without the help of bacteria humans could not survive either. Humans are a microbiome.
Oookaayyy...

This comes from where now?

Yes, according to people who made IT.
Note: Sophia is not female, it is a machine. (See how easy it is? And how trivial!)
Okay?

I think most people would understand what I meant without nitpicking semantics. But here we are.

Anywho...

If you would read the accompanying links, it would surely lessen your confusion as to the thrust of my posits.

According to the manufacturer, David Hanson, Sophia uses artificial intelligence, visual data processing and facial recognition.

The AI program analyses conversations and extracts data that allows it to improve responses in the future
.

It's an "intelligent agent".

Leading AI textbooks define the field as the study of "intelligent agents": any device that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chance of successfully achieving its goals.

A properly programmed AI will recharge itself when running low on fuel, a baby will just cry. A properly programmed AI will be able to move and perform chores, a baby just lies there.

A Roomba dust collector is functionally smarter than a baby, for a little while at least.
And to do all of that, massive amounts of data input is involved.

A baby is able to do what no AI can do and do it quickly, with very little information.

Had you bothered to read the article I linked, you'd have seen this quite succinctly.

Your pet cat is smarter than any AI that has currently been designed.

As for Sophia, the answers it gave is simply because it was programmed to give those particular answers.

It's answers are similar to chat bots - go to some websites and a chat bot will ask if you have any questions or queries about a product or service. It's not AI or even close to it. It's just programmed to give fairly set responses for any scenario.
The question is if AI can acquire "consciousness" without microtubules. Can we develop artificial microtubules?
Microtubules aside, the answer is probably not.
 
Babies and children construct theories about the world around them using the same approach scientists use to construct scientific theories. They explore and test their environment and the people in it with a systematic and experimental effort that is crucial to learning.
Yes, and what about newborn babies? By your very posit here they are born stupid and until they have "experience" they are "stupid". Roombas are "born" able to vacuum your floor, they're born "smart" and can find their way around the floor very neatly, just like a Paramecium....:)

Here is a case where you are being slippery, wheras you very well know what I meant by the comparison.
 
And to do all of that, massive amounts of data input is involved. A baby is able to do what no AI can do and do it quickly, with very little information.
What? Very little information, are you crazy??
Humans absorb trillions of bits of sensory information per second every waking moment, from the moment of birth.
That's why we have billions of microtubules in the brain, to process all that information coming into our senses.

OTOH, an AI can plug into the internet in 1 second and have most of the world's information at instant disposal. It's got a ready made billion "processing sites", instead of microtubules.

Perhaps we'll end up with a global AI.......:eek:
 
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This is a objective look at consciousness and its possible causes.


If consciousness is an emergent result of a neural network, what parts of the neuron are available in sufficient quantity throughout the body that could qualify for the fundamental structure what comprises the processors, which allow for an emergent consciousness, the "hard problem" ?

This is why I would have chosen microtubules as a viable candidate regardless of any pre-existing hypothesis. Hameroff is the scientist who not only uncovered the existence of microtubules to me, but offered a credible explanation why microtubules in the brain could function as the critical computing center of the neural network and the possible seat of emergent consciousness. They are everywhere in "dynamic" form, but also as "fixed" structures, which might lend themselves as memory modules.

One look at a microtubule reveals the beautiful efficient structure which is consistent regardless of the complicated and convoluted network they actually create, maintain, and actively use to process information, such as copying DNA for mitosis. Copying? Is that not a computer process?

Structures and Functions of Microtubules
Microtubules are filamentous intracellular structures that are responsible for various kinds of movements in all eukaryotic cells. Microtubules are involved in nucleic and cell division, organization of intracellular structure, and intracellular transport, as well as ciliary and flagellar motility. Because the functions of microtubules are so critical to the existence of eukaryotic cells (including our own), it is important that we understand their composition, how they are assembled and disassembled, and how their assembly/disassembly and functions are regulated by cells.
"Building blocks" of microtubules - tubulins
All eukaryotic cells produce the protein tubulin, in the usual way. The usual way, of course, is by transcription of genes coding for tubulin to produce messenger RNA, followed by the translation of mRNA by the ribosomes in order to produce protein. Cells maintain at least two types of tubulin, which we call alpha tubulin and beta tubulin. However, it is doubtful that the two types can be found in cells as individual proteins.
tubulin.gif


This is why I would have chosen microtubules as a viable candidate regardless of any pre-existing hypothesis. Hameroff is the scientist who not only uncovered the existence of microtubules to me, but offered a credible explanation why microtubules could function as the critical computing centers of the neural network. They are everywhere in the exact dynamic form and also as fixed nano structures.

One look at a microtubule reveals the beautiful efficient structure which is consistent regardless of the complicated and convoluted network they actually create, maintain, and actively use to process information.

tubulinhibition.gif
This is beginning to look like an electronic circuit.
The figure illustrates the inhibition of tubulin synthesis by the presence of heterodimers in the system. Exactly how that inhibition takes place is irrelevant to this discussion. More about the important concept of feedback inhibition can be found elsewhere.
microtubule.gif
Microtubules form a framework for structures such as the spindle apparatus that appears during cell division, or the whiplike organelles known as cilia and flagella. Cilia and flagella are the most well-studied models for microtubule structure and assembly, and are often used by textbooks to introduce microtubules.
https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/studies/invertebrates/microtubules.html

What is the main "known" function of microtubules?
1. Giving shape to cells and cellular membranes.
2. Cell movement, which includes contraction in muscle cells and more.
3. Transportation of specific organelles within the cell via microtubule "roadways" or "conveyor belts."
4. Mitosis and meiosis: movement of chromosomes during cell division and creation of the mitotic spindle.
https://sciencing.com/main-function-microtubules-cell-8552402.html

So, using Hameroff's quoting Sherlock Holmes' famous saying, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?

Might that logical reduction apply in this case?
 
What? Very little information, are you crazy??
Humans absorb trillions of bits of sensory information per second every waking moment, from the moment of birth.
You literally did not read the link, did you?

Once again.. Read and try to comprehend:

“The amazing thing about babies is they can see something once or hear a new word for the first time and they already have a good idea of what that new word could mean and how they could use that new word,” says Gopnik. “So these kind of Bayesian approaches have been good in explaining why children are so good at learning even when they don’t even have much data.”

That's why we have billions of microtubules in the brain, to process all that information coming into our senses.
Can they deliver my pizza too?

OTOH, an AI can plug into the internet in 1 second and have most of the world's information at instant disposal. It's got a ready made billion "processing sites", instead of microtubules.
And it needs to be programmed to do so. It needs to have the requisite software to be able to operate. It needs commands and instructions.

Maybe it's time for you to stop watching so much sci-fi and start dealing with reality a bit more.

o are we in a deterministic world. It depends on the "on the fly" programming.
If someone sticks a plug up your nose and starts programming your brain with various pre-set answers for you to give at specific questions, would you consider that "on the fly" programming?

Go to certain shopping cites that use a chatbot and then ask yourself if they are evolving when they respond to your queries. That is Sophia. A chatbot with a human styled face.

Yes, and what about newborn babies? By your very posit here they are born stupid and until they have "experience" they are "stupid".
Where did I say 'they are born stupid'?

Far from it, I pointed out that the intelligence of babies is measured by how they learn, not what they learn. They are intelligent because of how they quickly and innately process information without being taught to do so. Understand now?

For example, a baby is able to learn sign language by the time they are 6 months and they can effectively communicate by sign language by 6 months.

Do you need me to copy you and put it into giant bold, coloured font for you to understand?

Roombas are "born" able to vacuum your floor, they're born "smart" and can find their way around the floor very neatly, just like a Paramecium....:)
I see you have been making use of your single celled organism word of the day calendar..

Yes, because the little cleaner you take out of of the box is born when you turn it on and it learns as it goes, ignoring the fact that it is programmed to do it...

If you take a Roomba and wipe it's programming, it will sit there. And not "learn" when you turn it on. It cannot function without its programming and and very specific software.
 
OK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose

Then why do you say it? IMO, being a mathematician in addition to being a physicist is a PLUS!!~!!!!
Okay, I'll concede that Penrose is a physicist. He's a theoretical physicist. What that means is that some of his ideas are theoretical speculations and extrapolations, not empirically verified. Quantum data processing in microtubules is one of those ideas.

C'mon James, are we not allowed to explore the full range of physical sciences?

I am NOT a physicist!!! Never claimed I was. But I have a curious mind and this is an OPEN question.
Nobody has any answers yet.
NOBODY has the qualifications to make any judgement yet.
ORCH OP is in the falsification stage. No one has falsified ORCH OR yet.
Let's just play this thing out, shall we?

If anybody maintains it has been debunked, they are lying!!!

That's why I am posing these probative questions, rather than saying: "I'm not saying, but I am saying......blah, blah, blah", which you just did, also without the qualifications to judge, but citing other scientists who may have a stake in trying to debunk Penrose.
I am merely citing the scientists who are makig or supporting the proposal of ORCH OR. Anything wrong with that?

I find it prejudicial to only consider the critics. Have you noticed that they all begin with "Penrose is a brillant mind, but.....blah, blah, blah?"
It's one thing to only consider the critics. It's another to only consider the people who support the Penrose-Hameroff hypothesis.

A critical thinker retains an open mind on topics like this one. For myself, I can only say that I'm not at all convinced, at this stage, that any valuable data processing actually goes on in microtubules. Also, I'm not currently aware of any solid empirical evidence that microtubules do carry out quantum data processing of any kind. I'm also unaware of any plausible mechanism by which quantum events at the level of microtubules could possibly affect the functioning of nerves or brains on a more macroscopic level - i.e. the level at which the actual data processing in brains seems to occur.

What I regularly see from you is (a) your regular injection of the topic of microtubules into unrelated discussions, like you're advertising or preaching the idea that has captured your imagination, regardless of its relevance, and (b) your rather wild extrapolation from what is known about microtubules to all sorts of macroscopic implications (vis. hive minds and the like). My impression is that your enthusiam for the idea tends to blind you to its probable shortcomings. You act like somebody who thinks he's discovered The Answer to consciousness and the like, and you've made yourself an evangelist for that Answer. I think you lack the cautious and skeptical approach of most scientists.

I am doubly suspicious of the ORCH OR hypothesis precisely because it so excites followers of people like Deepak Chopra and his fellow woovians. It seems to me that there's a kind of subculture around this - people who have taken what was initially put forward as pure speculation in Penrose's book The Emperor's New Mind and run away with it, drawing all kinds of conclusions that simply are not supported by real-world results.

I could turn out to be completely wrong, of course. Maybe this idea will pan out in the long run after all. But its proponents have a long way to go to make a convincing case to the general scientific community. I'm not about to get all enthused about what is, after all, a rather extraordinary claim, unless and until the requisite extraordinary evidence to back it up comes to light.
 
You literally did not read the link, did you?

Once again.. Read and try to comprehend: “The amazing thing about babies is they can see something once or hear a new word for the first time and they already have a good idea of what that new word could mean and how they could use that new word,” says Gopnik. “So these kind of Bayesian approaches have been good in explaining why children are so good at learning even when they don’t even have much data.”
I literally did read the link.
I also was present when my daughter "discovered" her hands and made an intentional movement. It took her a few minutes to get some form of coordination. It was a highlight of parenthood.

And if a baby has a form of "memory" which is activated at birth, it would argue for the existence of a neural network which has transferred some information during gestation, it would be as easy as transferring data from computer to computer..

Actually I doubt that because if a person has been locked away for years they certainly have not gained any knowledge. and according to your suggestion, knowledge should be inherent but it is proven that knowledge MUST be acquired.
Brain Scans of Toddlers Reveal ‘Severe Sensory-Deprivation Neglect’
Children raised in stressful homes, unable to interact with their surroundings, may suffer permanent brain damage.
I believe this is due to microtubular catastrophe.
Can they deliver my pizza too?
Oh yes, get a drone, enter a GPS coordinate and it will deliver your pizza, scan you credit card and whish you "bon appetit", and return "home" to the pizzaria.
And it needs to be programmed to do so. It needs to have the requisite software to be able to operate. It needs commands and instructions.
Of course, as do all delivery systems. You need to be able to read a map (or rely on a GPS computer...)
Maybe it's time for you to stop watching so much sci-fi and start dealing with reality a bit more.
Maybe you are behind the times. Sci-Fi is constantly proving to be prescient.
If someone sticks a plug up your nose and starts programming your brain with various pre-set answers for you to give at specific questions, would you consider that "on the fly" programming?
No, that's programming. This is copied in human learning by rote. On the fly learning is assimilating new information while executing a programmed command.
Go to certain shopping cites that use a chatbot and then ask yourself if they are evolving when they respond to your queries. That is Sophia. A chatbot with a human styled face.
Then why did you address IT as a HER? A female chatbox?
Where did I say 'they are born stupid'?
You didn't. You did say they start learning the moment they're born which means they are born stupid. They know nothing at the moment they are born. Until that time they have been parasite floating in a liquid in total darkness. It is possible that audible sounds may have registered, but my point is that 'learning" starts after birth, not before, unless there is indeed a copying of information as well as cells! Microtubules.

If they were born with developed intelligence why not get up and start walking directly after being born? Are fawn intelligent because they can walk with the herd in just a some 20 minutes.! Now that's fast learning.
Far from it, I pointed out that the intelligence of babies is measured by how they learn, not what they learn. They are intelligent because of how they quickly and innately process information without being taught to do so. Understand now?
Oh yes, I understand. Here is that fawn learning to walk, from gathering the physical strength, to the mathematically balanced technique of rising without falling over, a feat that will take a baby a few years to learn.
These hardwired survival programs are present to a degree in every living thing that has evolved dependent on its environment.
But it has to be executed in the real world before it is "intelligent behavior". That's the "on-the -fly learning" to execute knowledge and the fight or flight program.
For example, a baby is able to learn sign language by the time they are 6 months and they can effectively communicate by sign language by 6 months.
Yesss!....and Lemurs can count as fast as humans at all ages!
I see you have been making use of your single celled organism word of the day calendar.
Yes, that's where it starts. A single cell dividing itself into two cells. MITOSIS is the original biological proto intelligent computation. A remarkable feat of (quasi) intelligence. Every Eukaryotic and some Prokaryotic cells in the world, from single celled bacteria to human cells, have a common denominator which manages their cell division. Microtubules.

Yes, because the little cleaner you take out of of the box is born when you turn it on and it learns as it goes, ignoring the fact that it is programmed to do it...
If you take a Roomba and wipe it's programming, it will sit there. And not "learn" when you turn it on. It cannot function without its programming and and very specific software.
And if I give a person a lobotomy, It'll just sit there also and not learn when It is awake.

Why do you keep comparing Human intelligence with Artificial Intelligence in a discussion of consciousness? The ability to experience emotional states.
This is the Hard problem: "You don't have to be smart to feel pain, but you probably have to be alive" (Anil Seth)

AI does NOT employ microtubules. Humans and almost every biologically complex organisms do!
 
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I could turn out to be completely wrong, of course. Maybe this idea will pan out in the long run after all. But its proponents have a long way to go to make a convincing case to the general scientific community. I'm not about to get all enthused about what is, after all, a rather extraordinary claim, unless and until the requisite extraordinary evidence to back it up comes to light
I agree, there is sparse evidence. But I find the concept most agreeable.

I make no distinction between human or any other living organism. I try to find "common denominators which are essential in the maintenance of a complex biological organism such as humans. IMO, that is a fundamental requirement for the emergence and evolution of the many conscious and intelligent abilities and behaviors abundant in nature from a "common" ancestor.

Humans themselves are subject to another part of the biome, the bacteria. They also have a communication system called "quorum sensing", a form of mathematical chemical action synchronization. Bacteria also have a simpler version of Microtubules. They're everywhere.
Bacteria are generally distinguished from the cells of fungi, plants, and animals (eukaryotes) not only by their much smaller size but also by the absence of certain subcellular structures such as nuclei, internal organelles, and microtubules.
Using state-of-the-art microscopy, we demonstrate here that microtubules do exist in some bacteria. These bacterial microtubules are built from proteins that are closely related to the microtubule proteins in eukaryotes. Bacterial microtubules are smaller in diameter than their counterparts in eukaryotic cells but have the same basic architecture.
We propose that bacterial microtubules represent primordial structures that preceded eukaryotic microtubules evolutionarily. Because bacterial microtubules can be produced and handled in the lab more easily than their eukaryotic counterparts, they may become useful tools for microtubule research and anti-cancer drug screening.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3232192/

What possible argument can be raised against the "concept" without addressing the question with generous resources, instead of outright rejection for some trivial detail?

I also agree with Tegmark that ultimately a universe which has inherent self-referential information sharing (Bohm's Implicate and Explicate order), must be of a mathematical nature. And that would simplify matters considerably and the Microtubule might well be the "little machine that could".
A neat little physical pattern that can produce mathematical computation, and sufficiently equiped for duplicating biological chemistry, given sufficient resources.
 
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Continuing our quest.
Orch OR was harshly criticized from its inception, as the brain was considered too "warm, wet, and noisy" for seemingly delicate quantum processes.. However, evidence has now shown warm quantum coherence in plant photosynthesis, bird brain navigation, our sense of smell, and brain microtubules.
The recent discovery of warm temperature quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons by the research group led by Anirban Bandyopadhyay, PhD, at the National Institute of Material Sciences in Tsukuba, Japan (and now at MIT), corroborates the pair's theory and suggests that EEG rhythms also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations.
In addition, work from the laboratory of Roderick G. Eckenhoff, MD, at the University of Pennsylvania, suggests that anesthesia, which selectively erases consciousness while sparing non-conscious brain activities, acts via microtubules in brain neurons
Lead author Stuart Hameroff concludes, "Orch OR is the most rigorous, comprehensive and successfully-tested theory of consciousness ever put forth. From a practical standpoint, treating brain microtubule vibrations could benefit a host of mental, neurological, and cognitive conditions."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

Please note that I stay away from the more esoteric interpretations. I want to concentrate only on the physical phenomena that may give rise to an emergent consciousness.
 
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And a nice neutral hopeful posit.
The need for a physical basis of cognitive process: Comment on “Consciousness in the universe. A review of the ‘Orch OR’ theory” (Jack A.Tuszynski)
I foresee major progress in bridging the gap between nanoscience and consciousness in the area of nano-neuroscience [5] where MT's, actin filaments and motor proteins connect between neurophysiology and molecular biology. Studying the neural phenomena at a nanoscale will lead to monumental breakthroughs in science and medicine and aid in consciousness studies.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001553


and this critique, while illustrating the expected mechanisms for "information processing" in the brain and throughout the body.

On the quantum theory of consciousness


Figure1-hameroff-penrose.jpg
Hameroff and Penrose admit that their brain’s microtubules at the interface between neurophysiology and quantum gravity are very speculative. They explicitly write that “the actual mechanisms underlying the production of consciousness in a human brain will be very much more sophisticated than any that we can put forward at the present time, and would be likely to differ in many important respects from any that we would be in a position to anticipate in our current proposals” [1].
Quantum biology is a hot topic, but its role in light harvesting in photosynthesis, magnetoreception, enzyme catalysis, or even DNA mutations, is far away from that in Orch OR theory. To be a detailed, testable, falsifiable, and reasonably rigorous approach to a theory of consciousness a new and mature version of the theory is needed. In my opinion, Orch OR is not a promising route to the nature of consciousness.
Life is born out of “warm, wet & noisy” systems.
Consciousness is like the Schrödinger’s cat of neuroscience.
https://mappingignorance.org/2015/06/17/on-the-quantum-theory-of-consciousness/

But the "warm, wet, noisy " systems have been addressed, at least partially?
 
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Write4U:

Here's an example of the sort of wild extrapolation that I take issue with:
"Children raised in stressful homes, unable to interact with their surroundings, may suffer permanent brain damage."

I believe this is due to microtubular catastrophe.
Now, tell me what evidence you have that links brain damage in stressed children to "microtubular catastrophe", if you can.

You say this is your belief, so I assume it's based on something concrete, rather than just a wishful thought that it might have something to do with your pet topic.
 
Write4U:

Here's an example of the sort of wild extrapolation that I take issue with:

Now, tell me what evidence you have that links brain damage in stressed children to "microtubular catastrophe", if you can.
Can we acknowledge that "sensory" or other kinds of "deprivation" is harmful to brain development?

Brain Scans Show The Effects Extreme Neglect Has On Child’s Brain
By Evolve | Jul 10, 2019
june17_part01_05.jpg

https://evolve.shared.com/brain-scans-show-the-effects-extreme-neglect-has-on-childs-brain/
The brain scans of two children of the same age demonstrate just how much of an effect an abusive or neglectful childhood can have on a child’s development. On one side is an image of the brain of a toddler with a happy home life and on the other is that of an emotionally abused toddler. The differences between the two are immediately apparent. As you can see, the brain on the left is clearer, has significantly fewer structures, and is much bigger than the one on the right.

It is obvious that there is a marked difference in brain development.

IF microtubules are responsible for processing information, then the absence of information or some physical deprivation (such as diet) may well be responsible for the degrading and eventual catastrophe of the parts of the brain which do the processing, resulting in the picture above.
You say this is your belief, so I assume it's based on something concrete, rather than just a wishful thought that it might have something to do with your pet topic.
From the OP perspective, is this sufficient evidence to warrant a probative statement by me?

Assuming that microtubules are the seat of intelligent consciousness, can we acknowledge that detrimental input of information to brain could be responsible for underdevelopment or catastrophic destruction of microtubules?

From a perspective of consciousness, detrimental brain input is a different experience than detrimental input in some unconscious information processor, but both should result in damage to the normal function.
That is the definition of the term "detrimental".
 
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What causes catastrophic microtubule failure?

Microtubule Catastrophe and Rescue

Microtubule catastrophe: an aging process
A microtubule “catastrophe” event manifests itself by the sudden switch of a growing microtubule into a rapidly shortening state. The widely accepted view of microtubule catastrophe is that it involves a single random event, such as the sudden loss of a protective end structure [13]. This single-step mechanism implies that a microtubule has the same probability of undergoing catastrophe at any given point in time, irrespective of how long it has been growing already. In this model, the `catastrophe frequency', which is the number of observed catastrophes divided by the total period of microtubule growth, remains constant over time, and the distribution of microtubule lifetimes and lengths is predicted to follow a decaying exponential distribution. ...........
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3556214/figure/F3/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3556214/

That would account for normal deterioration of brain function at old age. If so can we delay the process?
 
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IF microtubules are responsible for processing information, then the absence of information or some physical deprivation (such as diet) may well be responsible for the degrading and eventual catastrophe of the parts of the brain which do the processing, resulting in the picture above. From the OP perspective, is this sufficient evidence to warrant a probative statement by me?
No. It's pure speculation. You don't even get to first base in establishing that microtubules are responsible for processing information. The rest is then a flight of fancy.

Assuming that microtubules are the seat of intelligent consciousness, can we acknowledge that detrimental input of information to brain could be responsible for underdevelopment or catastrophic destruction of microtubules?
Again, you haven't got to first base. I see no reason to make the assumption you want to make, and even if we did, there'd be a lot of steps between that and "microtubular catastrophy" being caused by a stressful home environment.

---
There's very little point in this kind of speculation piled upon assumption piled upon wishful thinking.

To give you an analogy, take the person who believes UFOs are alien visitors. That person says "Aliens made the crop circle in my uncle's field!" So I ask "What evidence do you have that aliens caused the crop circle?" And the person replies "Well, if we assume that UFOs are alien spaceships, and that alien spaceships cause crop circles when they land, then it's logical that the crop circles were most likely made by aliens."

See any problems in that?
 
No. It's pure speculation. You don't even get to first base in establishing that microtubules are responsible for processing information. The rest is then a flight of fancy.
Allow me to ask this time if you have read anything about microtubules at all?

Microtubules are involved in all neural activities including building the neural network mechanisms, the transport and dedicated delivery of information trough the neural network, and are the exclusive agent in activating and controlling mitosis.
In short, the human body runs on microtubules. Nothing wrong with that, we have billions of them......:)

This link provides statistics of the role microtubules play in the human biome.
https://www.proteinatlas.org/humanproteome/cell/microtubules
 
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Microtubules are involved in all neural activities including building the neural network mechanisms that process the neural activities and are the exclusive agent in activating and controlling mitosis. In short, the human body runs on microtubules.
All neural activities? What happened to the neurotransmitters and the action potentials and the potassium and sodium ions and all that?

Most of the stuff you quote about microtubules emphasises one of two things: their structural role in supporting the cell, or their role in assisting cell division. A lot of what you quote doesn't even mention quantum effects in the microtubules, let alone information processing and the like.

The statement that "the human body runs on microtubules" strikes me as just more fanboy hyperbole from you.
 
And if a baby has a form of "memory" which is activated at birth, it would argue for the existence of a neural network which has transferred some information during gestation, it would be as easy as transferring data from computer to computer..

Actually I doubt that because if a person has been locked away for years they certainly have not gained any knowledge. and according to your suggestion, knowledge should be inherent but it is proven that knowledge MUST be acquired.
So you know better than the scientists who are studying AI and what they have discovered about how children learn.

You still fail to note that it is the 'how', not the 'what'.

Understand now?

Babies are intelligent not because of what they learn, but how they learn.

I believe this is due to microtubular catastrophe.
You are quoting things without linking to them. I don't even know what you are quoting, nor its source or context or content for that matter.

A scroll down the page sees a link in a different and later response to James, which says absolutely nothing about what you are claiming.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. From where I am sitting you have proven diddly squat and you are peddling woo.

Of course, as do all delivery systems. You need to be able to read a map (or rely on a GPS computer...)
That's nice.

But I was not talking about GPS, maps or a delivery system. I was responding to your comment about something else entirely.

Why are you responding to my quote out of context like this?

Maybe you are behind the times. Sci-Fi is constantly proving to be prescient.
How's that hive mind going?

No, that's programming. This is copied in human learning by rote. On the fly learning is assimilating new information while executing a programmed command.
This is not what Sohpia the robot was doing. The questions and answers were pre-programmed. Literally.

Then why did you address IT as a HER? A female chatbox?
Because it had a female name. If it was named Bob, I'd have probably referred to it as he.

Is it really something to get one's panties in a twist over?

I also refer to my car as 'her', because she is a beast of a car and she's alright even when she's not.. But I have stopped short of naming her. :)

You didn't. You did say they start learning the moment they're born which means they are born stupid. They know nothing at the moment they are born. Until that time they have been parasite floating in a liquid in total darkness. It is possible that audible sounds may have registered, but my point is that 'learning" starts after birth, not before, unless there is indeed a copying of information as well as cells! Microtubules.

If they were born with developed intelligence why not get up and start walking directly after being born? Are fawn intelligent because they can walk with the herd in just a some 20 minutes.! Now that's fast learning.
Welp, the light really is dim..

I said, repeatedly and linked that article that also said ... The intelligence of babies stems from how they learn.

Not what they know or learn.

But how they view the world, how they extrapolate information, how they interpret that information and how they analyse the world around them.

What part of that is so hard for you to actually understand?

Oh yes, I understand. Here is that fawn learning to walk, from gathering the physical strength, to the mathematically balanced technique of rising without falling over, a feat that will take a baby a few years to learn.
These hardwired survival programs are present to a degree in every living thing that has evolved dependent on its environment.
But it has to be executed in the real world before it is "intelligent behavior". That's the "on-the -fly learning" to execute knowledge and the fight or flight program.
You claim to understand, but you keep repeating the same bullshit and frankly stupid argument that shows you clearly do not understand.

And by the way, that fawn is also smarter than any AI will ever be.

You also need to read up on some evolutionary biology. Pay particular attention to a mature brain, narrow pelvis and how the human brain evolved to be the size that it is.

Yes, that's where it starts. A single cell dividing itself into two cells. MITOSIS is the original biological proto intelligent computation. A remarkable feat of (quasi) intelligence. Every Eukaryotic and some Prokaryotic cells in the world, from single celled bacteria to human cells, have a common denominator which manages their cell division. Microtubules.
And yet, it still cannot deliver my pizza.

And if I give a person a lobotomy, It'll just sit there also and not learn when It is awake.
The irony of your fit pitching at my referring to Sophia as "she" and "her" and you refer to a person as an "it" because of a lobotomy? Do you refer to people who suffer brain trauma, have brain tumors or have had brain tumors removed, have suffered severe strokes as "it" as well?

It depends on the lobotomy.

Yes, because the little cleaner you take out of of the box is born when you turn it on and it learns as it goes, ignoring the fact that it is programmed to do it...
Because it is programmed to map the room or house.

It's not "learning". It's mapping the room or house.

I'll give you an example. Take a VR headset. Before you use most of them, you have to 'map' the room or the area. With my son's Rift, that entails holding the hand controllers and carefully walking around the area where he will be using it, so the sensors on the wall map that space. That VR system is not "learning". The Roomba and other such devices do the same thing as what my son is doing when he is mapping the area.

Why do you keep comparing Human intelligence with Artificial Intelligence in a discussion of consciousness? The ability to experience emotional states.
Because you keep bringing it up...

AI does NOT employ microtubules. Humans and almost every biologically complex organisms do!
RIP bacteria....

Please note that I stay away from the more esoteric interpretations. I want to concentrate only on the physical phenomena that may give rise to an emergent consciousness.
You also stay away from scientific criticisms and studies that disprove it...

Can we acknowledge that "sensory" or other kinds of "deprivation" is harmful to brain development?
That is not what he asked.

Here is what he asked, specifically:

Now, tell me what evidence you have that links brain damage in stressed children to "microtubular catastrophe", if you can.

Nothing you have provided is actual evidence that brain damage in stress children is due to "microtubular catastrophe".

You are literally making stuff up.
 
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