Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

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I don't know, spacetime quantised? There is no theory as yet on that or quantum gravity.
Yes, there is.
It's called Causal Dynamical Triangulation (CDT)
Causal dynamical triangulation (abbreviated as CDT), theorized by Renate Loll, Jan Ambjørn and Jerzy Jurkiewicz, is an approach to quantum gravity that, like loop quantum gravity, is background independent.
This means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space) but, rather, attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves.
There is evidence [1] that, at large scales, CDT approximates the familiar 4-dimensional spacetime but shows spacetime to be 2-dimensional near the Planck scale, and reveals a fractal structure on slices of constant time. These interesting results agree with the findings of Lauscher and Reuter, who use an approach called Quantum Einstein Gravity, and with other recent theoretical work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation
 
A couple thoughts

One, the universe has physical properties, by definition. Not mathematical properties. Math is a system of symbols used by some brains to describe regular patterns in the universe and in the brain's perceptions and manipulations of sensory input. Tegmark is a Platonist who likes to see the universe as somehow "made of math," which for many of us is confusing the map with the territory.

Two, I am okay with occasional quotes, but would cast a vote here for fewer of these enormous citation dumps. The effect, just speaking for myself here, is of asking someone for the time and they read me a monograph on wristwatch design.

For example, if someone questions the reality of quantum entanglement between tubulin dimers, you may assume they have sufficient grounding in cytology and chemistry to not need a barrage of quotes and citations. All that's needed is for you to define one experiment that could show such quantum operations, and link to a paper based on such an experiment. IIRC, someone at University of Alberta is doing such experiments....got a name here: Jack Tuszynski. Has he gotten anywhere? (if his work is downthread somewhere, you need only direct me there, and save yourself the time of reposting)
 
True, but he is a physicist and if he sees a quantum function inside trillions of microtubules is it possible that may generate a field from which perceptible holographic field images emerge.

And that is where I mention Bohm.
Holonomic brain theory
Quantum interpretation of neuroscience
Just on microtubules.

There are about 70 trillion cells in the human body all metabolising, every second.
I do not know how many different biochemical reactions that involves but everything from immune response, hormonal, neurotransmitter, protein synthesis, gaseous exchange, ion channels and all the activities on the membrane.
Are MT the only candidate?

EDIT: Estimate is 30 trillion not 70 but I will leave my original post. Estimated 39 bacterial cell in the human body too.
Do the bacteria contribute to consciousness too? More than half?
 
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I don't know about dipolar coils, I can guess but I would rather look it up and feedback.
And normally I would have accompanied that statement with a quote and picture.

Dipole–Dipole Interactions in Microtubules
Jacques E. Schoutens
corrauth.gif


Abstract
Dimers in microtubules possess a dipole moment with components along three axes. The interaction energy among all dipole components in a microtubule was calculated for an un-deformed and an elliptically deformed microtubule in a “dry” condition. The interaction energy was found to increase with deformation. The total interaction energy among all dipoles is positive, which implies that the un-deformed cylindrical shape of a microtubule represents a condition of minimum energy. This suggests that the cylindrical shape of microtubules is a consequence of dipole–dipole interactions.
more ....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3482090/

microtubule%20transport.jpg

https://step1.medbullets.com/biochemistry/102076/microtubules
 
And normally I would have accompanied that statement with a quote and picture.

Dipole–Dipole Interactions in Microtubules
Jacques E. Schoutens
corrauth.gif


Abstract
more ....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3482090/

microtubule%20transport.jpg

https://step1.medbullets.com/biochemistry/102076/microtubules
You are doing well PLEASE no more pasting!
I can look for myself. (Third time)
Can I outline what I studied at university?

Cell biology, biochemistry, nerve and endocrine physiology, anatomy, the cellular basis of disease, immunology.... among other things.

All of these modules involved looking at the primary -tertiary structure of the proteins involved. If known.
 
Are MT the only candidate?
There are about 70 trillion cells in the human body all metabolising, every second.
I do not know how many different biochemical reactions that involves but everything from immune response, hormonal, neurotransmitter, protein synthesis, gaseous exchange, ion channels and all the activities on the membrane.
yes, but your are identifying data, not the processors and transmitters.
Are MT the only candidate?
Yes, because they are necessary for all transport of all Electro-Chemical data processing.
EDIT: Estimate is 30 trillion not 70 but I will leave my original post. Estimated 39 bacterial cell in the human body too.
But we are not talking about cells , but microtubules. There are far more microtubules than there are cells.
The human brain consists of 100 billion neurons and over 100 trillion synaptic connections. There are more neurons in a single human brain than stars in the milky way! During development, neurons navigate this complex cellular environment and assemble into functional circuits.
https://medicine.yale.edu/lab/colon_ramos/overview/#

AFAIK, there are 10 times as many bacteria as human cells. When counting DNA that number grows to 100 times.
Do the bacteria contribute to consciousness too? More than half?
I don't think so, but it is a fact that bacteria do communicate with each other via "chemical words" and "quorum sensing". Do they communicate? Proto-consciousness?

Bacterial Symbionts and Their Hosts
Symbiotic bacteria are important in animal hosts, but have been largely overlooked as they have proved difficult to culture in the laboratory. Approaches such as comparative genomics and real-time PCR have provided insights into the molecular mechanisms that underpin symbiont-host interactions.
Studies on the heritable symbionts of insects have yielded valuable information about how bacteria infect host cells, avoid immune responses, and manipulate host physiology. Furthermore, some symbionts use many of the same mechanisms as pathogens to infect hosts and evade immune responses. Here we discuss what is currently known about the interactions between bacterial symbionts and their hosts.
more .... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867406009652
 
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Cell biology, biochemistry, nerve and endocrine physiology, anatomy, the cellular basis of disease, immunology.... among other things.
I've been waiting for someone like you.

I'm sorry that my quoted passages annoy you. I can see that now.

But I post not only to erudite scholars who are familiar with the science, but also to interested laymen like myself and who have limited research abilities. I provide some "selected" excerpts from "reputable" sources

I am retired and visit a lot of websites. Where information is available I try to pick reputable sources and peer reviewed articles. That way I know that in my specific ignorance, I am not misrepresenting the science.

I'll try to keep quotes to a minimum.
 
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Tegmark is a Platonist who likes to see the universe as somehow "made of math," which for many of us is confusing the map with the territory.
Yes, I have heard that before. But what data is a map based on? We can say that the territory has only physical properties, but that is misleading. We could not make maps unless the physical properties are measurable for copying @ exact ratios.

What if we ask if the Universe has only some mathematical properties. Would that notion be rejected outright?
If not, why should there only be part of the universe with mathematical properties. Why not all of it?
What is the fatal flaw in that argument.

We do not invent natural maths. We discover natural maths, codify the ratios, and represent the values and functions with symbolic mathematics.

Ratio
Description
In mathematics, a ratio shows how many times one number contains another. For example, if there are eight oranges and six lemons in a bowl of fruit, then the ratio of oranges to lemons is eight to six. Similarly, the ratio of lemons to oranges is 6:8 and the ratio of oranges to the total amount of fruit is 8:14. Wikipedia
This type of measurement is intrinsically mathematical.

What exactly is the objection to an underlying mathematical structure to the dynamics inside a geometric object like the spacetime manifold? Especially when the only alternative is "irreducible complexity"?
 
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I have asked you three times to stop pasting videos and pastes from other sites.
POst #2895 is all my own words except for a quote of Chaos theory and a Youtube lecture by Max Tegmark.

What can possibly be wrong about that?
I can post in Russian using Google translate it does not mean I understand Russian grammar or prose.
Right, but Russian mathematics is the same as all other mathematics.
Quantum mechanics is a physical theory based on the empirical data available at the time. The behaviour of light and particles.
I am not sure I understand that. Do you mean Quantum mechanics has changed with new empirical data over time? I believe it goes deeper than that. I see the term "quantum" as addressing values or sets of values. And the quantum interaction (collapse of the superposition) In any case, Quantum Theory is a mathematical theory.
Chaos theory can be used for all sorts of applications including the movements of celestial bodies, weather patterns but IS a mathematical theory.
Yes indeed, I am a fan of Tegmark and a mathematical universe.
 
Jack Tuszynski. Has he gotten anywhere? (if his work is down-thread somewhere, you need only direct me there, and save yourself the time of reposting)
Check out Post # 2532 Page #127 for a list of scientists researching consciousness and microtubules.
 
I am not sure I understand that. Do you mean Quantum mechanics has changed with new empirical data over time? I believe it goes deeper than that. I see the term "quantum" as addressing values or sets of values. And the quantum interaction (collapse of the superposition) In any case, Quantum Theory is a mathematical theory.

A quick reminder of what quantum theory is because this is important.

This theory came about because there were phenomena that could not be explained by classical theory.

If I fire a canon ball from point x with velocity v at angle α, we can work out where it will land and the maximum height it will reach.

You cannot do that with a particle, it does not even make sense to describe the particle in terms of a trajectory, you can only assign probabilities to where it will be picked up on a detector.

You cannot say that it is velocity v, position x in the same way you can with a cannon ball.

This is very different to classical mechanics.

The maths describing quantum objects like particles and photons has a different structure too, very different.


Add to this concepts like: wave function; uncertainty principle, spin; interference; superposition and entanglement, none of these have direct classical analogues (ignoring things like conservation of momentum for colliding balls and angular momentum)

“collapse of the wave function” is related to a “measurement” once the particle is picked up at a point on the detector the possibility of it being elsewhere is zero.

Difficult to describe just using words, you can plot probability for position say and you will get probability distribution, where it is high, good chance of locating the particle and much lower at the sides.

In blue is two dimensions but the world we live in is in three, diagram on the right. Once measured you can see the function on the right reduces to a point because it has been detected.

upload_2023-11-13_13-3-31.png


upload_2023-11-13_13-3-49.pngupload_2023-11-13_13-3-31.png upload_2023-11-13_13-3-49.png
 
I'm sorry that my quoted passages annoy you. I can see that now.

I did not post that because I want you think I know everything as I do not.

Those units were covered a long time ago and although one tried to keep up it practically impossible to keep up with multiple topics.

I have covered it at some point was my point.


I chanced my arm and googled mitosis and MT and sure enough there they are, you may have mentioned them in this context?

So they have multiple functions in different cells and they are also in bacteria, this means they would have been on the planet for about 3 billion years before people.


So we have a family proteins present in the ancient biosphere for billions of years, why consciousness just for us? Consciousness in one function only when they are present in many species performing many functions?
 
You cannot do that with a particle, it does not even make sense to describe the particle in terms of a trajectory, you can only assign probabilities to where it will be picked up on a detector.
There is a long dormant model by David Bohm, the "Pilot Wave Theory", that is making a comeback!
In 1952, David Bohm, dissatisfied with the prevailing orthodoxy, rediscovered de Broglie's pilot wave theory. Bohm developed pilot wave theory into what is now called the de Broglie–Bohm theory.[15][16] The de Broglie–Bohm theory itself might have gone unnoticed by most physicists, if it had not been championed by John Bell, who also countered the objections to it. In 1987, John Bell rediscovered Grete Hermann's work,[17] and thus showed the physics community that Pauli's and von Neumann's objections only showed that the pilot wave theory did not have locality.
“collapse of the wave function” is related to a “measurement” once the particle is picked up at a point on the detector the possibility of it being elsewhere is zero.
The Pilot Wave model proposes that the Universe itself has a wave function and that All particles are carried by this wave function and do not have the particle-wave duality, but are particle even in transit. The interesting part is that if applied to the double slit experiment, the results are the same as in the standard model.

The pilot wave theory

Principles

(a) A walker in a circular corral. Trajectories of increasing length are colour-coded according to the droplet’s local speed (b) The probability distribution of the walker’s position corresponds roughly to the amplitude of the corral’s Faraday wave mode.[19]
The pilot wave theory is a hidden-variable theory. Consequently:
  • the theory has realism (meaning that its concepts exist independently of the observer);
  • the theory has determinism.
And I am particularly enchanted with Bohm's coining of the "Implicate" (enfolded potential) and "Explicate" (unfolded manifest) orders.
I chanced my arm and googled mitosis and MT and sure enough there they are, you may have mentioned them in this context?
Yes, and while it may not seem directly related to "consciousness", the mitotic spindle is a "copy machine" that makes copies of chromosomes with exquisite precision, a very useful ability. However, mitosis is subject to external pressures that may introduce random alterations, which are then tested via natural selection for survival advantage or disadvantage. The long-term result is surprising.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2017/02/405686/mysterious-98-scientists-look-shine-light-our-dark-genome#
So we have a family proteins present in the ancient biosphere for billions of years, why consciousness just for us? Consciousness in one function only when they are present in many species performing many functions?
But consciousness is not just for humans. Consciousness is manifest in many organisms. And before self-aware consciousness, it is "sensitivity" to environmental pressures (Paramecium), via microtubule-induced action potentials.

Here is where I looked for a common denominator in biological organisms that might serve as a fundamental "sensory data processing and transporting" system (pattern).
And behold, that common denominator is the microtubule, which is present in ALL Eukaryotic life and in simpler form already in Prokaryotic life. While individual MT are well suited to process electro-chemical data, according to Tegmark, the physical processors may not be as important as the pattern they are arranged in, creating a field that may have certain internal holographic properties. (Bohm again)

But IMHO this event may have been causal to the extraordinary power of the human brain and there is a historical marker that may have witnessed the beneficial evolutionary genetic "mutation".
See:
Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
Alec MacAndrew
Introduction
All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes. There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had 24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor's chromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans. The evidence for this hypothesis is very strong.
hum_ape_chrom_2.gif
Note the size of the fused chromosome. What extra data processing abilities did the new "pattern" create? http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

I believe that this event was responsible for the extraordinary brain growth that allowed for a large brain, sophisticated awareness of the environment, and ability to predict the future.

Note that only humans have the fused compound chromosome, which has to be the historical marker where humans became "homo sapiens" and split off from our common ancestor.
 
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There is a long dormant model by David Bohm, the "Pilot Wave Theory", that is making a comeback!
The Pilot Wave model proposes that the Universe itself has a wave function and that All particles are carried by this wave function and do not have the particle-wave duality, but are particle even in transit. The interesting part is that if applied to the double slit experiment, the results are the same as in the standard model.

The pilot wave theory

Principles

(a) A walker in a circular corral. Trajectories of increasing length are colour-coded according to the droplet’s local speed (b) The probability distribution of the walker’s position corresponds roughly to the amplitude of the corral’s Faraday wave mode.[19]

Yes, and while it may not seem directly related to "consciousness", the mitotic spindle is a "copy machine" that makes copies of chromosomes with exquisite precision, a very useful ability. However, mitosis is subject to external pressures that may introduce random alterations, which are then tested via natural selection for survival advantage or disadvantage. The long-term result is surprising.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2017/02/405686/mysterious-98-scientists-look-shine-light-our-dark-genome#
But consciousness is not just for humans. Consciousness is manifest in many organisms. And before self-aware consciousness, it is "sensitivity" to environmental pressures (Paramecium), via microtubule-induced action potentials.

Here is where I looked for a common denominator in biological organisms that might serve as a fundamental "sensory data processing and transporting" system (pattern).
And behold, that common denominator is the microtubule, which is present in ALL Eukaryotic life and in simpler form already in Prokaryotic life. While individual MT are well suited to process electro-chemical data, according to Tegmark, the physical processors may not be as important as the pattern they are arranged in, creating a field that may have certain internal holographic properties. (Bohm again)

But IMHO this event may have been causal to the extraordinary power of the human brain and there is a historical marker that may have witnessed the beneficial evolutionary genetic "mutation".
See:
Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
Alec MacAndrew
Introduction

hum_ape_chrom_2.gif
Note the size of the fused chromosome. What extra data processing abilities did the new "pattern" create?
http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

I believe that this event was responsible for the extraordinary brain growth that allowed for a large brain, sophisticated awareness of the environment, and ability to predict the future.

Note that only humans have the fused compound chromosome, which has to be the marker where humans became "homo sapiens" and split off from our common ancestor.
Please don't revert back.
I was explaining what quantum theory is.
 
Please don't revert back.
I was explaining what quantum theory is.
Please continue.
Add to this concepts like: wave function; uncertainty principle, spin; interference; superposition and entanglement, none of these have direct classical analogues (ignoring things like conservation of momentum for colliding balls and angular momentum)
“collapse of the wave function” is related to a “measurement” once the particle is picked up at a point on the detector the possibility of it being elsewhere is zero.
But it makes no difference if the particle is a wave (duality) or is riding a wave (non-locality)
Difficult to describe just using words, you can plot probability for position say and you will get probability distribution, where it is high, good chance of locating the particle and much lower at the sides.
Yes, this is how I understand the fundamental principles. But I also like the Penrose interpretation which seems very logical to me.

Penrose interpretation
The Penrose interpretation is a speculation by Roger Penrose about the relationship between quantum mechanics and general relativity. Penrose proposes that a quantum state remains in superposition until the difference of space-time curvature attains a significant level.[1][2][3]
Penrose's idea is a type of objective collapse theory. For these theories, the wavefunction is a physical wave, which experiences wave function collapse as a physical process, with observers not having any special role.
Penrose theorises that the wave function cannot be sustained in superposition beyond a certain energy difference between the quantum states. He gives an approximate value for this difference: a Planck mass worth of matter, which he calls the "'one-graviton' level".[1] He then hypothesizes that this energy difference causes the wave function to collapse to a single state, with a probability based on its amplitude in the original wave function, a procedure derived from standard quantum mechanics. Penrose's "'one-graviton' level" criterion forms the basis of his prediction, providing an objective criterion for wave function collapse.[1]
Despite the difficulties of specifying this in a rigorous way, he proposes that the basis states into which the collapse takes place are mathematically described by the stationary solutions of the Schrödinger–Newton equation.[4][5] Recent work indicates an increasingly deep inter-relation between quantum mechanics and gravitation.[6][7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_interpretation

This, to me sounds like the DeBroglie-Bohm and Penrose theories are fundamentally compatible.

When I discovered Bohm I came up with the term UOP (unit of potential) as a quantum value.

Then I discovered

Quantum potential

de Broglie had postulated in 1925 that the relativistic wave function defined on spacetime represents a pilot wave which guides a quantum particle, represented as an oscillating peak in the wave field, but he had subsequently abandoned his approach because he was unable to derive the guidance equation for the particle from a non-linear wave equation. The seminal articles of Bohm in 1952 introduced the quantum potential and included answers to the objections which had been raised against the pilot wave theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_potential


That encouraged me.
 
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Per my inquiry about Tuszinsky's work, you directed me...

Check out Post # 2532 Page #127 for a list of scientists researching consciousness and microtubules.

And I found the 2013 paper by him. I will quote a bit from there:

(quote) However, crucial validation or falsification of Orch OR must come from experimentation. This is very challenging since the current “gold standard” in neuroscience is fMRI andi ts spatial resolution is on the 1 mm scale while temporal resolution is on the 1 s scale. This is orders of magnitude
higher than the 1 nm and 1 ns scales of tubulin’s size/time operational dimensions as studied by molecular biophysics,
let alone the quantum gravity effects hypothesized by Orch OR to be occurring on the Planck scale of space–time
geometry (10−35 m; 10−44 s). This huge gap between the current experimental capabilities and the claims made by
Orch OR poses the greatest challenge to the acceptance of these tenets. (end quote)

A couple of later papers from his group, discovered in my own lit search, indicated no significant advance in experimental techniques to test the claims of Orch OR. It remains a postulate that includes some pretty dubious claims about a role for gravity - a force that is many orders of magnitude weaker than other relevant forces in the electrochemical activities in neurons.
 
There is a long dormant model by David Bohm, the "Pilot Wave Theory", that is making a comeback!
The Pilot Wave model proposes that the Universe itself has a wave function and that All particles are carried by this wave function and do not have the particle-wave duality, but are particle even in transit. The interesting part is that if applied to the double slit experiment, the results are the same as in the standard model.

The pilot wave theory

Principles

(a) A walker in a circular corral. Trajectories of increasing length are colour-coded according to the droplet’s local speed (b) The probability distribution of the walker’s position corresponds roughly to the amplitude of the corral’s Faraday wave mode.[19]

And I am particularly enchanted with Bohm's coining of the "Implicate" (enfolded potential) and "Explicate" (unfolded manifest) orders.
Yes, and while it may not seem directly related to "consciousness", the mitotic spindle is a "copy machine" that makes copies of chromosomes with exquisite precision, a very useful ability. However, mitosis is subject to external pressures that may introduce random alterations, which are then tested via natural selection for survival advantage or disadvantage. The long-term result is surprising.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2017/02/405686/mysterious-98-scientists-look-shine-light-our-dark-genome#
But consciousness is not just for humans. Consciousness is manifest in many organisms. And before self-aware consciousness, it is "sensitivity" to environmental pressures (Paramecium), via microtubule-induced action potentials.

Here is where I looked for a common denominator in biological organisms that might serve as a fundamental "sensory data processing and transporting" system (pattern).
And behold, that common denominator is the microtubule, which is present in ALL Eukaryotic life and in simpler form already in Prokaryotic life. While individual MT are well suited to process electro-chemical data, according to Tegmark, the physical processors may not be as important as the pattern they are arranged in, creating a field that may have certain internal holographic properties. (Bohm again)

But IMHO this event may have been causal to the extraordinary power of the human brain and there is a historical marker that may have witnessed the beneficial evolutionary genetic "mutation".
See:
Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
Alec MacAndrew
Introduction

hum_ape_chrom_2.gif
Note the size of the fused chromosome. What extra data processing abilities did the new "pattern" create? http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

I believe that this event was responsible for the extraordinary brain growth that allowed for a large brain, sophisticated awareness of the environment, and ability to predict the future.

Note that only humans have the fused compound chromosome, which has to be the historical marker where humans became "homo sapiens" and split off from our common ancestor.
Pilot wave theory is not “making a come back”. It remains a curiosity that some people tinker with, from time to time.
 
There is a long dormant model by David Bohm, the "Pilot Wave Theory", that is making a comeback!
Who says it is making a comeback? You?

More to the point: discussion of Bohm's "alternative theory" has absolutely zero relevance in a thread about microtubules.
 
Who says it is making a comeback? You?
More to the point: discussion of Bohm's "alternative theory" has absolutely zero relevance in a thread about microtubules.
I think it does. This says so.
Note The explanation of the Penrose interpretation at the end of the video.
Per my inquiry about Tuszinsky's work, you directed me...
And I found the 2013 paper by him. I will quote a bit from there:
A couple of later papers from his group, discovered in my own lit search, indicated no significant advance in experimental techniques to test the claims of Orch OR. It remains a postulate that includes some pretty dubious claims about a role for gravity - a force that is many orders of magnitude weaker than other relevant forces in the electrochemical activities in neurons.
Here is a later paper.

Rekindling of de Broglie-Bohm Pilot Wave Theory in the Late Twentieth Century: A Personal Account

But some 27 years after Bohm had published his interpretation of quantum theory, interest was rekindled in part by new, detailed calculations that demonstrated clearly and graphically, exactly how his interpretation explained quantum phenomena in terms of well defined individual particle trajectories.
These computations encompassed two-slit interference, quantum tunnelling, neutron interferometry, Wheeler's delayed choice experiment, orbital and intrinsic angular momentum, quantum measurement and Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen nonlocal correlations for orbital angular momentum, intrinsic angular momentum and correlated particle interferometry.
Since then, the acceptance of the validity of de Broglie-Bohm theory has steadily grown, as has the interest in the consequences of the approach. For my contribution to the current celebratory volume I was asked to provide a personal review specifically of this novel work within its historical context of the last quarter of the twentieth century.
https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2023FoPh...53...24D/abstract#
 
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