Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

I have now issued warnings for personal insults to both of you.

And that also proves exchemist's trespass, no? One of many. It's about time!

 

[Write4U]

You have yet to show that there is any data processing in microtubules. Distribution, perhaps, but consciousness would require processing, I assume.

There are plenty of references to microtubule processes. Read the titles of the quoted passages.

Also, I think you're working with a false dichotomy when you talk about how there "isn't another organelle...". Why do you assume that an organelle must be responsible for consciousness in the first place? You have not demonstrated that as a necessity.

Microtubules are not ordinary organelles. I think I have demonstrated that long ago.

That was the original objection years ago. I have provided an abundance of references, If only you would read them.

 

[James R]

Why can't regular old nerve cells possibly account for consciousness?

How did you rule that out?

 

[Write4U]

Why can't regular old nerve cells possibly account for consciousness?

How did you rule that out?

Where did I rule out regular old nerve cells?
Moreover, does using the term "nerve cells" or "neural network" make any difference as compared to the "microtubule network"?
Think about it for just a moment.

 

[Write4U]

It may not be quite the numbers game you're seeing.

The decoherence timescale of microtubule entanglement at body temps would be in femtoseconds, much too quick for any qubit signal processing. Without getting too far into this, there are also evolutionary biological reasons to doubt a brain would develop an ability to host a BEC.

Penrose is not all that sure and according to Hameroff, most of the original objections about the brain's environment were addressed satisfactorily ,

I posted that elsewhere some time ago, I believe both in print and video in response to the objections.

 

[James R]

The original contention of this thread was that it is quantum processes in microtubules which are supposed to somehow cause consciousness.

Have you moved away from that claim, now, Write4U?

Will regular old neural networks in the brain do the thing?

 

[Write4U]

The original contention of this thread was that it is quantum processes in microtubules which are supposed to somehow cause consciousness.

No, the OP was a multiple question. Note that even at this time microtubules are very inaccessible to study. I'd hate to be accused of presuming that microtubules are the ONLY possible solution, but I have yet to hear an alternate proposal. I really don't care so much about the quantum aspect as I do about the role microtubules (neurons) play in nearly every living organism or species on earth.

Have you moved away from that claim, now, Write4U?

on the contrary, where talking about quantum is too small for me, talking about neurons is too big for me. Nano-scale microtubule networks as the "controlling " biometric in an eminent candidate for being responsible for an emergent subconscious reactive awareness such as homeostasis (Interoception) to a conscious experiential awareness (Exteroception) of the environment.

Will regular old neural networks in the brain do the thing?

That is like asking if we can talk about an electrical network in terms of electrical cables instead of the spiral copper wiring inside the plastic housing.

In neurons the cable is called an axon and the protective sheath that covers the microtubule bundles is called the myelin sheath and in the center run the mictotubule bundles doing the actual work

What Is Axon?

An axon is a thin, long fiber of a nerve cell (or neuron). It transmits electrical impulses from the cell body (or soma) to the target cells, such as other glands, neurons, and muscles. It is a vital component of the nervous system, responsible for the transmission of signals, known as action potentials, across considerable distances. The axon ends in small branches called axon terminals, which form connections called synapses with other cells. These synapses allow the electrical signal to be transmitted as a chemical signal to other neurons or target cells.

Axons are typically covered by a myelin sheath, which helps to insulate and enhance the speed of signal transmission. They vary in length and can extend from a few micrometers to several feet in certain cases.

https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/axon

Microtubule depolymerization contributes to spontaneous neurotransmitter release in vitro

Abstract

Microtubules are key to multiple neuronal functions involving the transport of organelles, however, their relationship to neurotransmitter release is still unresolved. Here, we show that microtubules present in the presynaptic compartment of cholinergic autaptic synapses are dynamic.

To investigate how the balance between microtubule growth and shrinkage affects neurotransmission we induced synchronous microtubule depolymerization by photoactivation of the chemical inhibitor SBTub3.

The consequence was an increase in spontaneous neurotransmitter release. An analogous effect was obtained by dialyzing the cytosol with Kif18A, a plus-end-directed kinesin with microtubule depolymerizing activity.

Kif18A also inhibited the refilling of the readily releasable pool of synaptic vesicles during high frequency stimulation. The action of Kif18A was associated to one order of magnitude increases in the numbers of exo-endocytic pits and endosomes present in the presynaptic terminal.

An enhancement of spontaneous neurotransmitter release was also observed when neurons were dialyzed with stathmin-1, a protein with a widespread presence in the nervous system that induces microtubule depolymerization. Taken together, these results support that microtubules restrict spontaneous neurotransmitter release as well as promote the replenishment of the readily releasable pool of synaptic vesicles.

more... https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-04779-1#

It is microtubules that do all the work that could be even remotely be pertinent to the question of consciousness. If we can agree on that, we can go down to quantum levels. But not before we know the totality of the information distribution system itself.

Neural Circuits, Microtubule Processing, Brain’s Electromagnetic Field—Components of Self-Awareness

Abstract

The known theories discussing the essence of consciousness have been recently updated. This prompts an attempt to integrate these explanations concerning several distinct components of the consciousness phenomenon such as the ego, and qualia perceptions.

Therefore, it is useful to consider the latest publications on the ‘Orch OR’ and ‘cemi’ theories, which assume that quantum processing occurs in microtubules and that the brain’s endogenous electromagnetic field is important.

The authors combine these explanations with their own theory describing the neural circuits realizing imagery. They try to present such an interdisciplinary, integrated theoretical model in a manner intuitively understandable to people with a typical medical education. In order to do this, they even refer to intuitively understandable metaphors.

The authors maintain that an effective comprehension of consciousness is important for health care professionals because its disorders are frequent medical symptoms in emergencies, during general anesthesia and in the course of cognitive disorders in elderly people.

The authors emphasize the current possibilities to verify these theses regarding the essence of consciousness thanks to the development of functional brain imaging methods—magnetoencephalography, transcranial magnetic stimulation—as well as clinical studies on the modification of perceptions and feelings by such techniques as mindfulness and the use of certain psychoactive substances, especially among people with self-awareness and identity disorders.

1. Introduction

Recently published articles enable improved cognizance of the essence of consciousness. Stuart Hameroff recalled the arguments in favor of the theory associating the nature of consciousness with quantum processing in the microtubules [1]. These arguments have recently also been discussed by Tianwen Li et al. [2]. Wider interest in this theory comes from the detection of high-frequency vibrations in the microtubules [3].

The progress in the realm of so called “field theories of consciousness” should be also noted. Recently, McFadden published in a trustworthy journal the convincing justification for his “conscious electromagnetic information field theory” [4].

Hence, it is now possible to relate these mentioned “Orch OR” and “cemi” theories to our explanation of how neural circuits realize imagery. We have presented the description of the recall of mental images from memory in several articles [5,6,7,8].

Making a brief review of the mentioned theories will allow us to endorse below a comprehensible theory integrating all these concepts, which will enable improved cognizance of the essence of the nature of self-awareness.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8393322/#

I like that.

 

[Pinball1970]

the role microtubules (neurons) play in nearly every living organism or species on earth.

What like DNA? RNA? Mitochondria? Cell membranes? other proteins?

 

[Write4U]

What like DNA? RNA? Mitochondria? Cell membranes? other proteins?

Assuming that consciousness emerges during data transmission.
AFAIK, DNA and RNA are data, not data processors. Cell membranes do have instant intercellular communication, but that is provided by microtubules and related micro filaments This is exactly what intrigued Roger Penrose, cellular communication over the entire organism.

The Role of Cell Membrane Information Reception, Processing, and Communication in the Structure and Function of Multicellular Tissue
.......

We propose that as the amplitude, spatial extent, and duration of changes in cytoplasmic ion concentrations increase, the information can be communicated to the nucleus and other intracellular structure through ion flows along elements of the cytoskeleton to the centrosome (via microtubules) or proteins in the nuclear membrane (via microfilaments).

These dynamics add spatial and temporal context to the more well-recognized information communication from the cell membrane to the nucleus following ligand binding to membrane receptors. Here, the signal is transmitted and amplified through transduction by the canonical molecular (e.g., Mitogen Activated Protein Kinases (MAPK) pathways. Cytoplasmic diffusion allows this information to be broadly distributed to intracellular organelles but at the cost of loss of spatial and temporal information also contained in ligand binding.

more.... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6696332/#

Microfilament Definition

Microfilaments, also called actin filaments, are polymers of the protein actin that are part of a cell’s cytoskeleton. The cytoskeleton is the network of protein filaments that extends throughout the cell, giving the cell structure and keeping organelles in place. Microfilaments are the smallest filaments of the cytoskeleton. They have roles in cell movement, muscle contraction, and cell division.

https://biologydictionary.net/microfilament/

12.6: Transport on the Cytoskeleton

While it can be useful to think of these cytoskeletal structures as analogous to an animal skeleton, perhaps a better way to remember the relative placement of the microtubules and microfilaments is by their function in transporting intracellular cargo from one part of the cell to another. By that analogy, we might consider the microtubules to be a railroad track system, while the microfilaments are more like the streets. By the same analogy, we can suggest that the microtubule network and microfilament network are connected at certain points so that when cargo reaches its general destination by microtubule (rail), then it can be taken to its specific address by microfilament. Let’s extend this analogy a bit further. If the microtubules and microfilaments are the tracks and streets, then what are the trains and trucks? Ah, an astute question, Grasshopper. On the microtubules, the “trains” are one of two families of molecular motors: the kinesins and the dyneins.

https://bio.libretexts.org/Bookshel...skeleton/12.06:_Transport_on_the_Cytoskeleton

 

[Write4U]

I just ran across an interesting article that seems to support the current ORCH OR model...

Bohm’s Early Ideas on the Analogies between Quantum Processes and Thought

David Bohm made many suggestions about how quantum theory might be relevant to understanding the mind and its relationship to matter. Already in his 1951 textbook Quantum Theory, he proposed that there are striking analogies between quantum processes and thought. For example, a kind of uncertainty principle applies for the thought process in the sense that an attempt to define the content of a stream of thought precisely will make the “direction” of the stream of thought indeterminate (see Bohm 1951: 169-172 and Pylkkänen 2014, 2015).

He even suggested (inspired by Niels Bohr’s writings) that these analogies could be explained if there were certain points controlling brain mechanisms so sensitive and delicately balanced that they must be described in an essentially quantum-mechanical way (he speculated that such points could exist at certain types of nerve junctions). In this way, Bohm anticipated the various “quantum mind” hypotheses that have appeared during recent decades.

....

Bohm did not want to reduce the human mind and consciousness to the quantum level, but he also wanted to avoid dualism. He suggested that the quantum ontology can be extended to include higher level fields, each influencing and being influenced by levels below, and that the human mind could be a part of such a hierarchy of levels of information associated with certain neural processes (Bohm and Hiley (1993: 380-1; 386). In this way, say, when I move my hand, the information content in my thought could act down the hierarchy all the way to the level of the quantum field, which latter could then control particles (e.g., in synapses or some other relevant “quantum sites” in the brain). Such effects could then be amplified to control macroscopic neural processes.

more .... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41470-019-00035-2#

Microtubules?

 

[Pinball1970]

Assuming that consciousness emerges during data transmission.
AFAIK, DNA and RNA are data, not data processors. Cell membranes do have instant intercellular communication, but that is provided by microtubules and related micro filaments This is exactly what intrigued Roger Penrose, cellular communication over the entire organism.

The Role of Cell Membrane Information Reception, Processing, and Communication in the Structure and Function of Multicellular Tissue
....... more.... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6696332/#

Microfilament Definition
https://biologydictionary.net/microfilament/

12.6: Transport on the Cytoskeleton

https://bio.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Cell_and_Molecular_Biology/Book:_Cells_-_Molecules_and_Mechanisms_(Wong)/12:_Cytoskeleton/12.06:_Transport_on_the_Cytoskeleton

I am trying with you again. I am not interested in large pastes just the questions I ask you.
Why assume consciousness emerges via data transmission?
Also what do you mean by "data transmission" in a human?

 

[Write4U]

I am trying with you again. I am not interested in large pastes just the questions I ask you.
Why assume consciousness emerges via data transmission?

At quantum level ? Chaos theory. I believe we can measure the effects of data transmission in the brain.

Also what do you mean by "data transmission" in a human?

See #2890 and several earlier articles.

I believe that cellular communication, i.e. transfer of data has been well proven by Neuroimaging

Note the microtubule networks becoming expressed toward the end of the video.

 

[Pinball1970]

At quantum level ? Chaos theory.

Those are not the same thing and does not answer the question.

Why assume consciousness resides there in the first place?

See #2890

No, that is a collection of pastes. I want you in your own words to explain what you mean by data transmission in humans.

 

[Pinball1970]

At quantum level ? Chaos theory. I believe we can measure the effects of data transmission in the brain.
See #2890 and several earlier articles.

I believe that cellular communication, i.e. transfer of data has been well proven by Neuroimaging

Note the microtubule networks becoming expressed toward the end of the video.

I don't need videos either, I want YOUR arguments.
Quantum mechanics (please stop just calling things "quantum") was developed in the early part of the 20th century. It is part of physics today.
This is nothing to do with the underlying principles of chaos theory.

Chaos theory is a mathematical concept, physics is empirical.

 

[Write4U]

I don't need videos either, I want YOUR arguments.
Quantum mechanics (please stop just calling things "quantum") was developed in the early part of the 20th century. It is part of physics today.

yes, I am not introducing new science, I would not presume.
I am gathering data that I believe supports the ORCH OR theory.

This is nothing to do with the underlying principles of chaos theory.

I beg to differ.

Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary area of scientific study and branch of mathematics focused on underlying patterns and deterministiclaws of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, and were once thought to have completely random states of disorder and irregularities.[1]

Chaos theory states that within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnection, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

If consciousness is a form of self-reference then chaos (field) theory is clearly applicable, IMO.

Chaos theory is a mathematical concept, physics is empirical.

Yes, and believe Max Tegmark is on the right track in proposing that we already have all the necessary tools for consciousness and there is no magical ingredient other than an evolved self-referential neural system.
All we need to do is discovering "hard facts" instead of asking the "hard question" that we don't even know how to ask yet.

As to "in your own words", what words do you want me to say other than what has been said by people who have studied the various disciplines. I am not introducing a personal new science, but am trying to build on published science.
When discussing Relativity, people don't use their own words. They use the words of Einstein. So, Instead of using my own words which have been dubbed "moronic", I'd rather use the words of the original author, ok?

p.s. I use the word "quantum" where I am confident the term is understood in context of the whole sentence.
That is actually an example of me using my own words, but clearly that is not acceptable in the view of some "critics" who do not want me to use "my own words", but insist on proper scientific jargon.

So I'll stick with quoted passages that precisely identify what it is I am trying to accomplish here. I am glad to explain any of my posts that are not clear in and of themselves.

 

[Pinball1970]

yes, I am not introducing new science, I would not presume.
I am gathering data that I believe supports the ORCH OR theory.
I beg to differ. If consciousness is a form of self-reference then chaos (field) theory is clearly applicable, IMO.

Yes, and believe Max Tegmark is on the right track in proposing that we already have all the necessary tools for consciousness and there is no magical ingredient other than an evolved self-referential neural system.
All we need to do is discovering "hard facts" instead of asking the "hard question" that we don't even know how to ask yet.

As to "in your own words", what words do you want me to say other than what has been said by people who have studied the various disciplines. I am not introducing a personal new science, but am trying to build on published science.
When discussing Relativity, people don't use their own words. They use the words of Einstein. So, Instead of using my own words which have been dubbed "moronic", I'd rather use the words of the original author, ok?

p.s. I use the word "quantum" where I am confident the term is understood in context of the whole sentence.
That is actually an example of me using my own words, but clearly that is not acceptable in the view of some "critics" who do not want me to use "my own words", but insist on proper scientific jargon.

So I'll stick with quoted passages that precisely identify what it is I am trying to accomplish here. I am glad to explain any of my posts that are not clear in and of themselves.

I have asked you three times to stop pasting videos and pastes from other sites.
I want YOU in your own words to answer the questions I am asking you.
If you are wrong I will point it out out sure but that is better than quoting large texts. You have demonstrated you can use Google and wiki, great.
I want you to read what you research then post what you understand.
I can post in Russian using Google translate it does not mean I understand Russian grammar or prose.

 

[Pinball1970]

I beg to differ

It is a branch of mathematics, even your paste says this.
Quantum mechanics is a physical theory based on the empirical data available at the time. The behaviour of light and particles.

 

[Pinball1970]

If consciousness is a form of self-reference then chaos (field) theory is clearly applicable, IMO.

Field theory is a different thing again. QT was developed in the 1920s and QFT came on the back of that dealing with particles and fields.

Chaos theory can be used for all sorts of applications including the movements of celestial bodies, weather patterns but is IS a mathematical theory.

 

[Write4U]

I have asked you three times to stop pasting videos and pastes from other sites.

POst #2895 is all my own words except for a quote of Chaos theory and a Youtube lecture by Max Tegmark about the mathematical nature of physics.
What can possibly be wrong about that?

I can post in Russian using Google translate it does not mean I understand Russian grammar or prose.

Right, but Russian mathematics is the same as all other mathematics.
p.s. English is my second language. That is why I quote. When I quote something, that means I understand the narrative and that I could not improve on the language used.

Quantum mechanics is a physical theory based on the empirical data available at the time. The behaviour of light and particles.

Do you mean Quantum mechanics has changed with new empirical data over time?
I believe it goes deeper than that. I see the term "quantum" (quanta) as addressing values or sets of values. And at Planck scale the quantum interaction (collapse of the superposition) In any case, Quantum Theory is a mathematical theory.

Quantum

Description
In physics, a quantum is the minimum amount of any physical entity involved in an interaction. The fundamental notion that a physical property can be "quantized" is referred to as "the hypothesis of quantization". Wikipedia

and

In physics, quantisation (in American English quantization) is the systematic transition procedure from a classical understanding of physical phenomena to a newer understanding known as quantum mechanics. It is a procedure for constructing quantum mechanics from classical mechanics. A generalization involving infinite degrees of freedom is field quantization, as in the "quantization of the electromagnetic field", referring to photons as field "quanta" (for instance as light quanta). This procedure is basic to theories of atomic physics, chemistry, particle physics, nuclear physics, condensed matter physics, and quantum optics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantization_(physics)

And all that would be a function of mathematics, no?

function
mathematics
See all related content →

Function, in mathematics, an expression, rule, or law that defines a relationship between one variable (the independent variable) and another variable (the dependent variable). Functions are ubiquitous in mathematics and are essential for formulating physical relationships in the sciences.

The modern definition of function was first given in 1837 by the German mathematician Peter Dirichlet:
If a variable y is so related to a variable x that whenever a numerical value is assigned to x, there is a rule according to which a unique value of y is determined, then y is said to be a function of the independent variable x.

This relationship is commonly symbolized as y = f(x)—which is said “f of x”—and y and x are related such that for every x, there is a unique value of y. That is, f(x) can not have more than one value for the same x.

https://www.britannica.com/science/function-mathematics

Chaos theory can be used for all sorts of applications including the movements of celestial bodies, weather patterns but IS a mathematical theory.

Yes indeed, I am a fan of Tegmark and a mathematical universe.

I am glad you do see that all my perspectives are based on natural generic mathematics, that human science has recognized (discovered) codified and symbolized.

Does a Lemur use mathematics? It knows the difference between "more" from "less", a mathematical equation.
It will intuitively choose the larger quantity even as it doesn't know how to count.

Does a slime mold use mathematics? Yes, it uses subtraction to conquer the most intricate mazes. It doesn't know
how to count, but it fills the entire maze, then evacuate (subtract) dead ends and mark them. That's applied mathematics.
Moreover, it can learn to anticipate "time intervals". Apparently a cellular ability for "timing". This learning behavior is also found in plants, such as the Mimosa. I believe these calculations are performed by the microtubule network.

May I ask if you believe that the universe has at least some mathematical properties?

 

[Write4U]

Superposition principle

The

superposition principle,[1] also known as superposition property, states that, for all linear systems, the net response caused by two or more stimuli is the sum of the responses that would have been caused by each stimulus individually. So that if input A produces response X and input B produces response Y then input (A + B) produces response (X + Y).

A

function

that satisfies the superposition principle is called a linear function. Superposition can be defined by two simpler properties: additivity

and homogeneity

for scalar a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle

Rolling motion as superposition of two motions. The rolling motion of the wheel can be described as a combination of two separate motions: translation without rotation, and rotation without translation.

Superposition is a mathematical function.

What Is Superposition and Why Is It Important?

Imagine touching the surface of a pond at two different points at the same time. Waves would spread outward from each point, eventually overlapping to form a more complex pattern. This is a superposition of waves. Similarly, in quantum science, objects such as electrons and photons have wavelike properties that can combine and become what is called superposed.

Credit: Shutterstock

While waves on the surface of a pond are formed by the movement of water, quantum waves are mathematical. They are expressed as equations that describe the probabilities of an object existing in a given state or having a particular property. The equations might provide information on the probability of an electron moving at a specific speed or residing in a certain location.

When an electron is in superposition, its different states can be thought of as separate outcomes, each with a particular probability of being observed. An electron might be said to be in a superposition of two different velocities or in two places at once. Understanding superposition may help to advance quantum technology such as quantum computers.

more...
https://scienceexchange.caltech.edu/topics/quantum-science-explained/quantum-superposition#

Does superposition apply in context of emerging sensitivity we have named "consciousness"?

The superposition principle applies to any linear system, including algebraic equations, linear differential equations, and systems of equations of those forms. The stimuli and responses could be numbers, functions, vectors, vector fields, time-varying signals, or any other object that satisfies certain axioms.

Note that when vectors or vector fields are involved, a superposition is interpreted as a vector sum. If the superposition holds, then it automatically also holds for all linear operations applied on these functions (due to definition), such as gradients, differentials or integrals (if they exist).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle