Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[James R]

How do you answer the self-organization of recurring patterns without a mathematixcal function?
I beg to differ with your conclusion.
The fact that humans are able to measure, quantify, codify, and symbolize natural processes is proof of an underlying mathematical ordering function to begin with.

This may seem unrelated to the discussion, but this comedian makes an astute observation that is undeniably true.
Take a few minutes and be entertained as well as informed.....

Go to; 3:40 on the video.

Maths remain the same over time.

Why is Tegmark etc. in the microtubules thread?

Can't you stay on topic?

 

[Write4U]

Why is Tegmark etc. in the microtubules thread?

I see no Tegmark. I see Ricky Gervais and Stephen Colbert talking about the difference between religion and mathematics.

 

[Pinball1970]

I see no Tegmark. I see Ricky Gervais and Stephen Colbert talking about the difference between religion and mathematics.

Can you answer questions about Tegmark in the Tegmark thread?

I was created Just4U

 

[Write4U]

Can you answer questions about Tegmark in the Tegmark thread?
I was created Just4U

Thanks.

 

[Write4U]

A little update on microtubules and how they form.

Local Nucleation of Microtubule Bundles through Tubulin Concentration into a Condensed Tau Phase

Summary

Non-centrosomal microtubule bundles play important roles in cellular organization and function. Although many diverse proteins are known that can bundle microtubules, biochemical mechanisms by which cells could locally control the nucleation and formation of microtubule bundles are understudied.

Here, we demonstrate that the concentration of tubulin into a condensed, liquid-like compartment composed of the unstructured neuronal protein tau is sufficient to nucleate microtubule bundles. We show that, under conditions of macro-molecular crowding, tau forms liquid-like drops. Tubulin partitions into these drops, efficiently increasing tubulin concentration and driving the nucleation of microtubules. These growing microtubules form bundles, which deform the drops while remaining enclosed by diffusible tau molecules exhibiting a liquid-like behavior.

Our data suggest that condensed compartments of microtubule bundling proteins could promote the local formation of microtubule bundles in neurons by acting as non-centrosomal microtubule nucleation centers and that liquid-like tau encapsulation could provide both stability and plasticity to long axonal microtubule bundles.

Graphical Abstract

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221112471731149X

 

[Write4U]

To keep up with Tegmark's perspective on consciousness, her is an article written directly by Stuart Hameroff.

Consciousness is the collapse of the wave function

Quantum mechanics and the organic light of consciousness

Stuart Hameroff
| Anesthesiologist and Quantum Consciousness Theorist and Researcher. Professor Emeritus at The Department of Anesthesiology and Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona.

Consciousness defines our existence. It is, in a sense, all we really have, all we really are, The nature of consciousness has been pondered in many ways, in many cultures, for many years. But we still can’t quite fathom it.

Finally there are those who take consciousness as fundamental, as connected somehow to the fine scale structure and physics of the universe. This includes, for example Roger Penrose’s view that consciousness is linked to the Objective Reduction process - the ‘collapse of the quantum wavefunction’ – an activity on the edge between quantum and classical realms. Some see such connections to fundamental physics as spiritual, as a connection to others, and to the universe, others see it as proof that consciousness is a fundamental feature of reality, one that developed long before life itself.

In the mid 1990s I teamed with Roger Penrose to suggest that quantum vibrations in microtubules in brain neurons were ‘orchestrated’, hence ‘Orchestrated Objective Reduction’. Consciousness was somewhat like music in the structure of spacetime.

Our Orchestrated Objective Reduction theory was viewed skeptically. Technological quantum computers were operated near absolute zero temperatures to avoid thermal decoherence, so quantum prospects in the ‘warm, wet and noisy’ brain seemed unlikely. But we knew quantum optical activity could occur within non-polar regions in microtubule proteins, where anesthetics appeared to act to selectively block consciousness.

Recently we were proven right: a quantum optical state of superradiance has been shown in microtubules, and preliminary evidence suggests it is inhibited by anesthetics. How do quantum activities at this level affect brain-wide functions and consciousness?

It is becoming apparent that consciousness may occur in single brain neurons extending upward into networks of neurons, but also downward and deeper, to terahertz quantum optical processes, e.g. ‘superradiance’ in microtubules, and further still to fundamental spacetime geometry (Figure 1). I agree that consciousness is fundamental, and concur with Roger Penrose that it involves self-collapse of the quantum wavefunction, a rippling in the fine scale structure of the universe.

Organic light per se isn’t consciousness. But organic light could be the interface between the brain and conscious processes in the fine scale structure of the universe.

Figure 1. A scale-invariant hierarchy extending downward from a cortical pyramidal neuron (left) into microtubules, tubulin dipoles, organic ring dipoles and spacetime geometry curvatures. Self-similar dynamics recur every three orders of magnitude.

 

[Write4U]

This is a very interesting perspective.

 

[Write4U]

The more I learn about MT, the greater the wonderous potentials contained in this little dipolar coil. Apparently it has no limits in processing information over long distances as well by inter- and intra- cellular communication.

The entire neural/cellular network, masterminded by the self-referential control mechanism in the brain, appears to sort and amplify electro-chemical information, i.e. vision, hearing, etc. and the manufacturing of (re-)“action potentials” that allow us to “act”.

This is one of the most comprehensive articles on the body's neural network and how it regulates every "calculation" the body must make to maintain itself in balance relative to its environment. It can take its place in the library among other good science literature.

Description
Neural connections concept. Human body neurology, nervous system. 3D illustrationNeural connections concept. Human body neurology, nervous system. 3D illustration Neural Connections Concept Human Body Neurology Nervous System 3d Illustration Stock Photo - Download Image Now - iStock

Microtubule-Based Transport and the Distribution, Tethering, and Organization of Organelles - PMC

The human biome is a self-referential dynamic local field in the spacetime fabric. Are we the multiverse ? That would be ironic.

 

[Write4U]

I think this is a worthy addition to the subject.

(forgive the interference, it's annoying).

 

[James R]

The more I learn about MT, the greater the wonderous potentials contained in this little dipolar coil. Apparently it has no limits in processing information over long distances as well by inter- and intra- cellular communication.

No limits at all, eh?

These microtubules of yours are very Godlike.

The entire neural/cellular network, masterminded by the self-referential control mechanism in the brain, appears to sort and amplify electro-chemical information, i.e. vision, hearing, etc. and the manufacturing of (re-)“action potentials” that allow us to “act”.

Yes. Our nervous system and brain work electrically.

The human biome is a self-referential dynamic local field in the spacetime fabric.

A human biome not a field.

The rest is the usual word salad from you. Just words strung together meaninglessly.

You don't really know what you meant by "biome" there (or perhaps what that word means at all), do you?
In what sense is the biome self-referential? You don't know, and you don't say.
The word "dynamic" is just pointless filler.
So too, probably, is "local". What human biome would not be "local"? What locality did you have in mind? You don't know, and you don't say.
And "spacetime fabric" is just a fancy sciency-sounding word whose meaning you don't understand.

Are we the multiverse ? That would be ironic.

Tell me, Write4U: why would it be ironic? Please explain the ironic aspects of it to me.

 

[Write4U]

A human biome not a field.

It is a "local field".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_field

field , noun (mathematics)
A set of elements such that addition and multiplication are commutative and associative and multiplication is distributive over addition and there are two elements 0 and 1
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/field

 

[Write4U]

Back to MT

We already know that migrating birds use microtubules to read the earth's magnetic field for navigation.
I believe this is an additional important ability of microtubules. Ability to "read' gravitational topology.

Microtubule self-organization is gravity-dependent
Abstract

Although weightlessness is known to affect living cells, the manner by which this occurs is unknown. Some reaction-diffusion processes have been theoretically predicted as being gravity-dependent.

Microtubules, a major constituent of the cellular cytoskeleton, self-organize in vitro by way of reaction-diffusion processes. To investigate how self-organization depends on gravity, microtubules were assembled under low gravity conditions produced during space flight.

Contrary to the samples formed on an in-flight 1 × g centrifuge, the samples prepared in microgravity showed almost no self-organization and were locally disordered.

more... https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.140029597#

 

[James R]

It is a "local field".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_field

field , noun (mathematics)
A set of elements such that addition and multiplication are commutative and associative and multiplication is distributive over addition and there are two elements 0 and 1
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/field

You just showed that the human biome is not a local field. Don't you realise? Moreover, you've confirmed that you didn't understand the term "local field" when you tried to apply it.

 

[Write4U]

You just showed that the human biome is not a local field. Don't you realise? Moreover, you've confirmed that you didn't understand the term "local field" when you tried to apply it.

That depends on the set of "relational values" within the field. In that sense the human organism is a local field in that it has a more or less independent existence.

Can you tell me what is wrong with this about "A set of elements such that addition and multiplication are commutative and associative and multiplication is distributive over addition and there are two elements 0 and 1" ?

If that is the way it works, where is the problem?

I find it remarkable that the Fibonacci sequence begins with a zer0 !

Some of the most well-known examples of fractals are those that contain the Fibonacci sequence: a collection of numbers in which each is a sum of the two before it: zero, one, one, two, three, five, eight, and so on. Sep 1, 2023

Fractal Nature | Atmos

examples of one "guiding principle" of growth.

and our human symbolic mathematical representation of these fundamental self-ordering principles.

and IMO, it is this self-referential simplicity that makes it's complex evolutionary processes possible. In view of the incredible dynamics (a megaquantum event?) of the universe, this form of evolutionary paths and processes would seem almost inevitable over time..

 

[Write4U]

Returning to MT

I like these articles. It speaks of a healthy research in neural systems

Microtubules in cell migration

Abstract

Directed cell migration is critical for embryogenesis and organ development, wound healing and the immune response. Microtubules are dynamic polymers that control directional migration through a number of coordinated processes: microtubules are the tracks for long-distance intracellular transport, crucial for delivery of new membrane components and signalling molecules to the leading edge of a migrating cell and the recycling of adhesion receptors.

Microtubules act as force generators and compressive elements to support sustained cell protrusions. The assembly and disassembly of microtubules is coupled to Rho GTPase signalling, thereby controlling actin polymerisation, myosin-driven contractility and the turnover of cellular adhesions locally. Cross-talk of actin and microtubule dynamics is mediated through a number of common binding proteins and regulators.

Furthermore, cortical microtubule capture sites are physically linked to focal adhesions, facilitating the delivery of secretory vesicles and efficient cross-talk. Here we summarise the diverse functions of microtubules during cell migration, aiming to show how they contribute to the spatially and temporally coordinated sequence of events that permit efficient, directional and persistent migration.

Figure 1
Microtubule structure and functions
(A) Microtubules are 25-nm diameter tubes assembled from 13 protofilaments of head-to-tail arranged heterodimers of α-tubulin and β-tubulin. Microtubules assemble primarily at their ends by addition of GTP-bound tubulin dimers that gradually hydrolyse GTP once incorporated in the lattice. The presence of a GTP-tubulin stabilises growth phases, loss of the cap results in catastrophe and the microtubule shrinks until it is rescued. (B) Overview of microtubule functions: transport tracks for minus end-directed dynein and predominantly plus end-directed kinesins, the stiffness of microtubules paired with viscosity of the cytoplasm allows microtubules to resist large compressive forces, microtubule assembly and disassembly results in pushing and pulling forces can be coupled to perform work, microtubules serve as signalling hubs by sequestering lattice-bound signalling molecules or enriching signalling complexes in the plus end complex, these are released upon depolymerisation.

Especially in larger cell types, microtubules play important roles in mesenchymal migration [19].

These roles include providing an intracellular transport network for the rapid and directed transport of membrane vesicles, signalling molecules, RNAs and other cytoskeletal components, which are essential to maintain polarity and directionally persistent cell migration.

Microtubules also contribute to the formation and maintenance of membrane protrusions through their ability to resist high compressive loads and generate pushing forces [20,21]. The additional ability of microtubules to exert pulling forces is employed by migrating cells to move the nucleus forwards and position the centrosome [22].

The asymmetric organisation of the microtubule network is key to the front/back polarity of cells as it allows differential regulation of intracellular events at the leading edge versus the cell rear.

Finally, microtubules play a role in signalling during cell migration. Microtubules sequester and inactivate signalling molecules that are released and activated upon microtubule depolymerisation. The microtubule +TIP complex assembling at growing microtubule ends concentrates signalling molecules and actin assembly factors. Thereby microtubule dynamics is coupled to the regulation of actin dynamics, Rho GTPase signalling and the regulation of focal adhesion turnover. The diverse roles played by microtubules during cell migration are summarised in Figure 1B.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6823166/#

The MT and synaptic network functions very much like a computer, a biological computer.

The Electrical Analogue Computer of Microtubule’s Protofilament

2. The Computing Elements
In this section, we summarize the relation between output and input voltages of each computing analogue element that can be useful to design the analogue computer. The relations are derived using the common node laws at the entrance of each operational
amplifier. (Figure 1).

Computing elements. (a) High gain dc amplifier with feedback and input impedances, (b) summing amplifier, (c) integrating amplifier, and (d) summing integrating amplifier.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ddns/2020/4916202/fig1/

 

[James R]

Write4U:

That depends on the set of "relational values" within the field.

No, it doesn't. Nothing I wrote depends on that. "Relational values" are just something you made up. Meaningless.

In that sense the human organism is a local field in that it has a more or less independent existence.

Repeating the same error, even after you were told?

Is it just a matter of posting any old rubbish to try to keep the conversation going, with you? Are you past caring about whether you make any sense at all?

Can you tell me what is wrong with this about "A set of elements such that addition and multiplication are commutative and associative and multiplication is distributive over addition and there are two elements 0 and 1" ?

What does that relate to? Hint: it doesn't relate at all to your silly claim that the "human biome" is a "field". You don't know what it relates to, do you, because you just grabbed your dictionary and posted the first thing you found about "field" that sounded pseudo-scientific.

I find it remarkable that the Fibonacci sequence begins with a zer0 !

Relevance: zero!

...and IMO, it is this self-referential simplicity that makes it's complex evolutionary processes possible.

Your opinions on this topic don't have any rational basis, though, do they?

 

[Write4U]

Write4U:

No, it doesn't. Nothing I wrote depends on that. "Relational values" are just something you made up. Meaningless.

Yes, sorry. That should have read "relational potentials"

Inferring Relational Potentials in Interacting Systems
Armand Comas-Massagué, Yilun Du, Christian Fernandez, Sandesh Ghimire, Mario Sznaier, Joshua B. Tenenbaum, Octavia Camps

Systems consisting of interacting agents are prevalent in the world, ranging from dynamical systems in physics to complex biological networks.

To build systems which can interact robustly in the real world, it is thus important to be able to infer the precise interactions governing such systems. Existing approaches typically discover such interactions by explicitly modeling the feed-forward dynamics of the trajectories.

In this work, we propose Neural Interaction Inference with Potentials (NIIP) as an alternative approach to discover such interactions that enables greater flexibility in trajectory modeling: it discovers a set of relational potentials, represented as energy functions, which when minimized reconstruct the original trajectory. NIIP assigns low energy to the subset of trajectories which respect the relational constraints observed.

We illustrate that with these representations NIIP displays unique capabilities in test-time. First, it allows trajectory manipulation, such as interchanging interaction types across separately trained models, as well as trajectory forecasting. Additionally, it allows adding external hand-crafted potentials at test time. Finally, NIIP enables the detection of out-of-distribution samples and anomalies without explicit training. Website: this https URL.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.14466

What does that relate to? Hint: it doesn't relate at all to your silly claim that the "human biome" is a "field".

You don't know what it relates to, do you, because you just grabbed your dictionary and posted the first thing you found about "field" that sounded pseudo-scientific.

No, I specifically used the term field as illustrated below.
This a field inside the microbiome.

On second thought, the term "community" might have been more appropriate. The gut itself is the field.

Your opinions on this topic don't have any rational basis, though, do they?

I don't think you are qualified to judge.

 

[James R]

This is ridiculous. I think it's probably past time for closing this nonsense of a thread.

 

[Write4U]

Why is Tegmark etc. in the microtubules thread?

Because Tegmark proposes that consciousness is an emergent property of certain self-referential neural patterns,
which is pertinent to the thread.

Another example that you do not read what I quote, which defeats the purpose of the quotes. Well done!!!

 

[Write4U]

The advantage of dipolar properties in microtubules.

Efferent and Afferent MT functions

Control of microtubule organization and dynamics: two ends in the limelight

Key Points
Microtubule organization and dynamics are controlled by proteins that associate with the two microtubule extremities, the plus end and the minus end.

Proteins accumulating at microtubule ends can promote or inhibit microtubule polymerization, enhance or block microtubule disassembly, or induce transitions between microtubule growth and shortening.

Microtubule plus-end-tracking proteins (+TIPs) can accumulate at microtubule ends by recognizing the stabilizing GTP cap at growing microtubule tips or the curvature of the outermost part of the microtubule, or by plus-end-directed motor activity. This accumulation can be enhanced by electrostatic interactions between positively charged protein domains and the negatively charged microtubule lattice.

+TIPs form extensive interaction networks, which depend on a limited number of protein motifs and modules that bind to each other with moderate affinity, allowing rapid remodelling of the end-associated complexes during microtubule growth and shortening. The recruitment of proteins with SxIP and cytoskeleton-associated protein Gly-rich (CAP-Gly) domains by the 'autonomous' +TIPs of the end-binding protein (EB) family plays a major part in the formation of these networks.

+TIP networks are responsible for a large range of cellular functions, such as microtubule guidance along other cytoskeletal elements, microtubule attachment to the cell cortex, kinetochores and intracellular membrane organelles, positioning of microtubule arrays and signalling.

Microtubule minus-end-targeting proteins (−TIPs) of the calmodulin-regulated spectrin-associated protein (CAMSAP) and Patronin family accumulate at free, growing microtubule minus ends and control the architecture of microtubule networks by stabilizing non-centrosomal microtubules.
A wide range of diverse pharmacological agents can target microtubule tips either directly or indirectly and cooperate with +TIPs in regulating the dynamics of microtubule ends.

Abstract
Microtubules have fundamental roles in many essential biological processes, including cell division and intracellular transport. They assemble and disassemble from their two ends, denoted the plus end and the minus end. Significant advances have been made in our understanding of microtubule plus-end-tracking proteins (+TIPs) such as end-binding protein 1 (EB1), XMAP215, selected kinesins and dynein. By contrast, information on microtubule minus-end-targeting proteins (−TIPs), such as the calmodulin-regulated spectrin-associated proteins (CAMSAPs) and Patronin, has only recently started to emerge. Here, we review our current knowledge of factors, including microtubule-targeting agents, that associate with microtubule ends to control the dynamics and function of microtubules during the cell cycle and development.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrm4084#accession-codes