Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Pinball1970]

Superposition principle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle

Rolling motion as superposition of two motions. The rolling motion of the wheel can be described as a combination of two separate motions: translation without rotation, and rotation without translation.

Superposition is a mathematical function.

What Is Superposition and Why Is It Important?

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https://scienceexchange.caltech.edu/topics/quantum-science-explained/quantum-superposition#

Does superposition apply in context of emerging sensitivity we have named "consciousness"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle

I ignored your last post because you put yet more pastes in.
When I ask you not to paste of swathes of texts from other people, do you understand why?

 

[Pinball1970]

Do you mean Quantum mechanics has changed with new empirical data over time?
I believe it goes deeper than that. I see the term "quantum" (quanta) as addressing values or sets of values. And at Planck scale the quantum interaction (collapse of the superposition) In any case, Quantum Theory is a mathematical theory.

I will reply to this part.

Quantum mechanics is not mathematics, it uses mathematics, the language is maths, it is not a mathematical theory.

You don't prove scientific theories, you test them. You CAN prove mathematical theorems.
The theory of Evolution will never be proven in the same way Pythagoras theorem has been proven.

What you said about Planck scale, and superposition, collapse is nonsense.

 

[Write4U]

I ignored your last post because you put yet more pastes in.
When I ask you not to paste of swathes of texts from other people, do you understand why?

You've read them all before?

I have explained to you why I do post quotes from scientific articles. It is precisely to illustrate my level of comprehension and how it applies in context of the thread. I understand the quoted passages and they are supportive of my perspective on the nature of spacetime.

I am trying to avoid being obtuse. I let the scientists or reviewers do the talking where I agree with them. I cannot be more scientific than that.

 

[Pinball1970]

I want you to post what you think you understand NOT large pastes from other people. Write4U

 

[Pinball1970]

You've read them all before?

I have explained to you why I do post quotes from scientific articles. It is precisely to illustrate my level of comprehension and how it applies in context of the thread. I understand the quoted passages and they are supportive of my perspective on the nature of spacetime.

I am trying to avoid being obtuse. I let the scientists or reviewers do the talking where I agree with them. I cannot be more scientific than that.

That's better! That was ALL you!

 

[Pinball1970]

You've read them all before?

I have explained to you why I do post quotes from scientific articles. It is precisely to illustrate my level of comprehension and how it applies in context of the thread. I understand the quoted passages and they are supportive of my perspective on the nature of spacetime.

I am trying to avoid being obtuse. I let the scientists or reviewers do the talking where I agree with them. I cannot be more scientific than that.

Stick to that format and we will get on like a house on fire

 

[Write4U]

The theory of Evolution will never be proven in the same way Pythagoras theorems has been proven.

What you said about Planck scale, and superposition, collapse is nonsense.

OK, in what way was it nonsense?
That is what ORCH OR is all about, no?

 

[Pinball1970]

OK, in what way was it nonsense?
That is what ORCH OR is all about, no?

Forget consciousness for now we have bigger fish.
Planck scale is not the scale of an electron, or proton or Bucky ball which has 60 C atoms. They all exhibit quantum behaviour, IE they display can wave like interference and you can make predictions based on QT.

Superposition is something else, that is a combination of possible states

 

[Write4U]

That's better! That was ALL you!

If that was agreeable to you, then please apply that logic to the rest of my presentations.
What I post is not random. I try to paint a landscape and I use several brushes.

 

[Pinball1970]

OK, in what way was it nonsense?
That is what ORCH OR is all about, no?

Collapse of the wave function relates to when the particle (say) is observed at a particular place. The probability of the particle being at all these other places has disappeared. Why look under the stairs when we found it behind the door?

 

[Pinball1970]

If that was agreeable to you, then please apply that logic to the rest of my presentations.
What I post is not random. I try to paint a landscape and I use several brushes.

Perhaps James should split this off? New thread.

 

[Write4U]

Forget consciousness for now we have bigger fish.
Planck scale is not the scale of an electron, or proton or Bucky ball which has 60 C atoms. They all exhibit quantum behaviour, IE they display can wave like interference and you can make predictions based on QT.

Yes, and I took the term quantum to also apply to larger scale such as the nano scale of microtubules.

Superposition is something else, that is a combination of possible states

Yes, and it is a big part of ORCH OR.

I rely on Penrose to have deep insight in this matter and I am assuming he is right. I am trying to build on that, but only with intent to inform from an objective POV, not to advance some mystical dualism.

 

[Pinball1970]

Yes, and I took the term quantum to also apply to larger scale such as the nano scale of microtubules.

My point is that quantum "effects" act at much larger scales not just the Planck scale.

They exhibit effects on particles much larger.

 

[Pinball1970]

Yes, and I took the term quantum to also apply to larger scale such as the nano scale of microtubules.

Yes, and it is a big part of ORCH OR.

I rely on Penrose to have deep insight in this matter and I am assuming he is right. I am trying to build on that, but only with intent to inform from an objective POV, not to advance some mystical dualism.

I'm impressed, you have changed your approach, you did not have to but you did because I asked.
For me at least, good on you

 

[Write4U]

Collapse of the wave function relates to when the particle (say) is observed at a particular place. The probability of the particle being at all these other places has disappeared. Why look under the stairs when we found it behind the door?

According Hameroff and Penrose, the collapse of the wave function may affect spacetime fabric as a "bing", that could be measured as a moment of consciousness. A single quantum event affecting the surrounding spacetime?

 

[Pinball1970]

Yes, and I took the term quantum to also apply to larger scale such as the nano scale of microtubules.

Yes, and it is a big part of ORCH OR.

I rely on Penrose to have deep insight in this matter and I am assuming he is right. I am trying to build on that, but only with intent to inform from an objective POV, not to advance some mystical dualism.

Don't assume Penrose is right, is he supersmart and a Noble laureate yes but can be wrong on this, he is not a molecular biologist.

 

[Write4U]

My point is that quantum "effects" act at much larger scales not just the Planck scale.

They exhibit effects on particles much larger.

Sorry, I did not make that clear. I completely agree with you. And that also supports the notion of microtubules processing quantum values. They are dipolar coils.

 

[Pinball1970]

According Hameroff and Penrose, the collapse of the wave function may affect spacetime fabric as a "bing", that could be measured as a moment of consciousness. A single quantum event affecting the surrounding spacetime?

I don't know, spacetime quantised? There is no theory as yet on that or quantum gravity.

 

[Write4U]

Don't assume Penrose is right, is he supersmart and a Noble laureate yes but can be wrong on this, he is not a molecular biologist.

True, but he is a physicist and if he sees a quantum function inside trillions of microtubules is it possible that may generate a field from which perceptible holographic field images emerge.

And that is where I mention Bohm.
Holonomic brain theory
Quantum interpretation of neuroscience

Holonomic brain theory is a branch of neuroscience investigating the idea that human consciousness is formed by quantum effects in or between brain cells. Holonomic refers to representations in a Hilbert phase space defined by both spectral and space-time coordinates. Holonomic brain theory is opposed by traditional neuroscience, which investigates the brain's behavior by looking at patterns of neurons and... Wikipedia

 

[Pinball1970]

Sorry, I did not make that clear. I completely agree with you. And that also supports the notion of microtubules processing quantum values. They are dipolar coils.

I looked this up, tubulin are a class of proteins, not just one molecular weight, secondary structure and collection of microcharges.

I don't know about dipolar coils, I can guess but I would rather look it up and feedback.