Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

And
A role for primary cilia in coral calcification?

Abstract
Cilia are evolutionarily conserved organelles that extend from the surface of cells and are found in diverse organisms from protozoans to multicellular organisms. Motile cilia play various biological functions by their beating motion, including mixing fluids and transporting food particles. Non-motile cilia act as sensors that signal cells about their microenvironment.

In corals, cilia have been described in some of the cell layers but never in the calcifying epithelium, which is responsible for skeleton formation. In the present study, we used scanning electron microscopy and immunolabelling to investigate the cellular ciliature of the different tissue layers of the coral Stylophora pistillata, with a focus on the calcifying calicoblastic ectoderm.

We show that the cilium of the calcifying cells is different from the cilium of the other cell layers. It is much shorter, and more importantly, its base is structurally distinct from the base observed in cilia of the other tissue layers. Based on these structural observations, we conclude that the cilium of the calcifying cells is a primary cilium.

From what is known in other organisms, primary cilia are sensors that signal cells about their microenvironment. We discuss the implications of the presence of a primary cilium in the calcifying epithelium for our understanding of the cellular physiology driving coral calcification and its environmental sensitivity.

more .... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7960582/

 

[Pinball1970]

am not a scientist and the maths are beyond my ability. When I fundamentally understand a published scientific narrative I feel no need for details

Yeah why let a silly thing like details get in the way when studying science?

 

[exchemist]

I looked. Thanks. Somewhat disappointing, as I was hoping for a broader examination of computationalism, pitted against Penrosian ideas about nonalgorithmic cognition (which iirc he sometimes called nonalgorithmic action, to underscore the peculiar physics). I don't see evidence re microtubules that really points to a Bose Einstein Condensate, but was hoping the thread might zoom back to Penrose's (which my autocorrect tried to fix as Penises) larger dissent against functionalism (brain = fancy Turing machine). Still, I appreciate Write4U sticking with the topic after an apparently rocky start and attempting to delve into the very challenging fields of cytology and quantum theory.

Good luck in your reading, then.

 

[TheVat]

I am not a scientist and the maths are beyond my ability. When I fundamentally understand a published scientific narrative I feel no need for details.

Details are incredibly important here. You don't have to be a scientist, but if you want to pursue a scientific discipline as an amateur (my avatar, among the greatest scientific minds of his century, was an amateur with little formal education and apprenticed as a bookbinder), then you need to embrace the details, if only to learn which ones are important and inform how data is collected and interpreted.

 

[TheVat]

have not heard anyone propose another systemic quality that is common to all living things from single-celled paramecium to multicelled whales that can detect and react to specific external and internal stimuli.

This is irrelevant to the thread topic which is quantum processing inside neurons.

When a paramecium, e.g., is stimulated (mechanically, chemically, optically, thermally…), it often swims backward then turns and swims forward again. This “avoiding reaction” is triggered by a calcium-based action potential. There is an ionic calcium channel within the cilia. Nothing but good old chemistry. No qubits. No quantum superpositions. And you need the details to understand why this is so.

 

[Pinball1970]

Details are incredibly important here. You don't have to be a scientist, but if you want to pursue a scientific discipline as an amateur (my avatar, among the greatest scientific minds of his century, was an amateur with little formal education and apprenticed as a bookbinder), then you need to embrace the details, if only to learn which ones are important and inform how data is collected and interpreted.

I do not want you to waste your efforts on this poster.
It sounds harsh but I tried with him on other threads but eventually bailed.
I was warned by historical members but tried to educate him anyway,you can only do that when then person is open to it.

 

[Write4U]

This is irrelevant to the thread topic which is quantum processing inside neurons.

I am not limiting myself to just ORCH OR or IIT as much as exploring the phenomenon of consciousness and if quantum collapse is the moment that produces awareness.
If anyone has a different perspective I would welcome it as part of this thread.

When a paramecium, e.g., is stimulated (mechanically, chemically, optically, thermally…), it often swims backward then turns and swims forward again. This “avoiding reaction” is triggered by a calcium-based action potential. There is an ionic calcium channel within the cilia. Nothing but good old chemistry. No qubits. No quantum superpositions. And you need the details to understand why this is so.

What I do know is that where cilia are used the propel and navigate, they also act as "sensors" of kinetic stimulation. When a paramecium bumps into an obstacle, it interrupts the cilium's timing, resulting in a change of the "beat" generated inside the microtubule motor, resulting in a change of direction.

Is this what Penrose describes as "quantum collapse" with the paramecium as the observer?

Primary Cilia: A Closer Look at the Antenna of Cells

Summary

A recent study reports the three-dimensional structure of a primary cilium with unprecedented clarity. The results highlight the architectural differences with motile cilia and provoke a reassessment of the relationship between the ciliary cytoskeleton and microtubule-based transport in cilia.

Main Text

The function of motile cilia is obvious. They protrude from the surface of cells and beat rhythmically to generate a driving force for locomotion or fluid flow.

In contrast, primary cilia are immotile and were long believed to be functionally dispensable, vestigial organelles. This misconception changed with the discovery that primary cilia play key roles in organizing and regulating signaling pathways [1] and are vital for the perception of our senses including olfaction, vision, and mechanosensation [2].

In a recent report in Nature Structural & Molecular Biology, Gaia Pigino and colleagues [3] develop a new method to isolate primary cilia and use electron cryotomography (cryo-ET) to determine their three-dimensional structure. The results reveal that primary and motile cilia are even more different than originally thought.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982220316614

Ability to respond to quantum collapse?
This is where I hoped others might explain. I am not prepared to argue quantum, but others can? I'd like to know. Can you explain why this is so?

....but if you want to pursue a scientific discipline as an amateur (my avatar, among the greatest scientific minds of his century, was an amateur with little formal education and apprenticed as a bookbinder), then you need to embrace the details,

I am asking the questions about existing science on consciousness and viable arguments about its causality. I am not proposing a new hypothesis and I cannot argue its merits.
I was hoping that people with knowledge of quantum (like Penrose), or any pertinent or tangential information, could explain it "informally".

Penrose interpretation
Overview

Penrose's idea is inspired by quantum gravity, because it uses both the physical constants ℏ and �. It is an alternative to the Copenhagen interpretation, which posits that superposition fails when an observation is made (but that it is non-objective in nature), and the many-worlds interpretation, which states that alternative outcomes of a superposition are equally "real", while their mutual decoherence precludes subsequent observable interactions.

Penrose's idea is a type of objective collapse theory. For these theories, the wavefunction is a physical wave, which experiences wave function collapse as a physical process, with observers not having any special role.

Penrose theorises that the wave function cannot be sustained in superposition beyond a certain energy difference between the quantum states. He gives an approximate value for this difference: a Planck mass worth of matter, which he calls the "'one-graviton' level".[1]

He then hypothesizes that this energy difference causes the wave function to collapse to a single state, with a probability based on its amplitude in the original wave function, a procedure derived from standard quantum mechanics.
Penrose's "'one-graviton' level" criterion forms the basis of his prediction, providing an objective criterion for wave function collapse.[1]

Despite the difficulties of specifying this in a rigorous way, he proposes that the basis states into which the collapse takes place are mathematically described by the stationary solutions of the Schrödinger–Newton equation.[4][5] Recent work indicates an increasingly deep inter-relation between quantum mechanics and gravitation.[6][7]

Physical consequences

Accepting that wavefunctions are physically real, Penrose believes that matter can exist in more than one place at one time. In his opinion, a macroscopic system, like a human being, cannot exist in more than one place for a measurable time, as the corresponding energy difference is very large. A microscopic system, like an electron, can exist in more than one location significantly longer (thousands of years), until its space-time curvature separation reaches collapse threshold.[8][9]

In Einstein's theory, any object that has mass causes a warp in the structure of space and time around it. This warping produces the effect we experience as gravity. Penrose points out that tiny objects, such as dust specks, atoms and electrons, produce space-time warps as well.

Ignoring these warps is where most physicists go awry. If a dust speck is in two locations at the same time, each one should create its own distortions in space-time, yielding two superposed gravitational fields. According to Penrose's theory, it takes energy to sustain these dual fields. The stability of a system depends on the amount of energy involved: the higher the energy required to sustain a system, the less stable it is.

Over time, an unstable system tends to settle back to its simplest, lowest-energy state: in this case, one object in one location producing one gravitational field. If Penrose is right, gravity yanks objects back into a single location, without any need to invoke observers or parallel universes.[2]

more..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_interpretation

 

[Write4U]

Here is a competing hypothesis.

Integrated information theory (IIT)

proposes a mathematical model for the consciousness of a system. It comprises a framework ultimately intended to explain why some physical systems (such as human brains) are conscious,[1] and to be capable of providing a concrete inference about whether any physical system is conscious, to what degree, and what particular experience it is having; why they feel the particular way they do in particular states (e.g. why our visual field appears extended when we gaze out at the night sky),[2] and what it would take for other physical systems to be conscious (Are other animals conscious? Might the whole Universe be?).[3]

According to IIT, a system's consciousness (what it is like subjectively) is conjectured to be identical to its causal properties (what it is like objectively). Therefore it should be possible to account for the conscious experience of a physical system by unfolding its complete causal powers (see Central identity).[4]

Are we talking "patterns" here?

IIT was proposed by neuroscientist Giulio Tononi in 2004.[5] Despite significant interest, IIT remains controversial and has been widely criticized, with some claiming that it is unfalsifiable pseudoscience.[6] Proponents counter that there is some experimental support for it, but the fundamental validity of some of the tests used is questioned by some critics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory

I love mathematics and it seems to me that, (according to Penrose and Tononi) quantum processes deal with "values" (differential equations), which puts it in the domain of mathematics. I'd love some input on this perspective.

 

[James R]

I need to look back through this impressive thread, and do some catching up.

Prepare to be disappointed!

 

[Write4U]

Prepare to see a range of reasons why the microtubule network should be considered the single data processing network that can generate consciousness as an emergent property.

Note that all examples of microtubule functions involve some form of the transcription, transmission, amplification, and storage of data.

To me, that means a large road sign ----> "this way"
to the processing and the production of action potentials in response to incoming sensory data and an evolving conscious awareness of "meaning".

What other candidate is there? Everything else is processed by our subconscious homeostatic system and our bacterial symbionts and they aren't conscious even as they communicate via quorum sensing.

Surely there is no ''unknown" common force or dimension that could generate the range of data processing and consciousness in living organisms.

 

[Write4U]

Prepare to be disappointed!

About what? Lack of information about quantum behaviors in neurons? What exactly is "known" about that in depth?

I am merely collecting examples of microtubule functions and why that makes them the only candidate for consideration as a "hard fact" (Tegmark) in the search for clues to discovery of consciousness.

And you are warning newcomers about my lack of scientific rigor and that my efforts will be disappointing to anyone who expresses an interest in the subject?
For a mod that is a peculiar attitude.

Well, risking further disappointment, here is some more "interesting" information on MT.

Microtubule dynamics in neuronal morphogenesis

Abstract

Microtubules (MTs) are essential for neuronal morphogenesis in the developing brain. The MT cytoskeleton provides physical support to shape the fine structure of neuronal processes. MT-based motors play important roles in nucleokinesis, process formation and retraction.

Regulation of MT stability downstream of extracellular cues is proposed to be critical for axonogenesis.

Axons and dendrites exhibit different patterns of MT organization, underlying the divergent functions of these processes.

Centrosomal positioning has drawn the attention of researchers because it is a major clue to understanding neuronal MT organization. In this review, we focus on how recent advances in live imaging have revealed the dynamics of MT organization and centrosome positioning during neural development.

Introduction

Neuronal migration and polarization are key activities in brain morphogenesis, and both rely on microtubule (MT) function [1–8]. MTs have intrinsic polarity based on the asymmetry of the αβ-tubulin heterodimer. MTs exhibit two distinct ends: a slow-growing minus end at which α-tubulin subunits are exposed, and a fast-growing plus end at which β-tubulin subunits are exposed [9,10]. MT network polarity within a cellular process affects not only its dynamic nature but also directed transport along MTs [3,6,9,10].

Formation of cytoplasmic MTs is initiated by binding of αβ-tubulin heterodimers to the γ-tubulin ring complex on the surface of an MT organizing centre such as the centrosome [9,10].

MT elongation through addition of tubulin heterodimers to the plus end forms a polarized cytoskeleton. Forming fibres undergo cycles of growth and shortening, a behaviour known as dynamic instability [11,12].

Also known as variable potentiometer.

Neurons form large cellular protrusions such as leading processes, axons and dendrites, which function in neuronal migration and circuit formation. These processes contain an MT cytoskeleton, and dynamic changes in MTs underlie their extension and retraction [13–20].

Furthermore, the MT cytoskeleton is critical to maintain integrity of neuronal processes in the developing brain [21]. The highly polarized MT structure provides tracks for MT-based motors to enable directional movement of intracellular cargos within processes [22].

The minus-end-directed dynein motor complex plays a pivotal role in nucleokinesis in migrating neurons [23,24]. Kinesin super family proteins (KIFs), most of which are plus-end-directed motors, show multiple effects on MT dynamics and neuronal morphogenesis [22]. For example, kinesin-2 (KIF3) reportedly polarizes the Par3 complex leading to axon specification [25,26], whereas kinesin-1 (KIF5) promotes axon formation and elongation via transporting cargos such as membrane vesicles and the CRMP2–tubulin complex [27–29].

The mitotic MT-associated motor proteins kinesin-5 (Eg5, KIF11) and kinesin-12 (KIF15) negatively regulate short MT transport, limiting both axonal growth and neuronal migration [30–32]. Kinesin-6 (CHO1, MKLP1, KIF23) and kinesin-12 (HKLP2, KIF15) reportedly regulate MT organization in axons and dendrites [33]. Other kinesin family members, such as kinesin-8 (Kip3) and kinesin-13 (MCAK), are known to control dynamic instability by promoting MT catastrophe [34,35].

Defects in MT-related genes cause human diseases ranging from severe brain malformations to mental disorders [

36–41]. Point mutations in genes encoding tubulin α- or β-subunits alter MT dynamics, and cause aberrant neurogenesis, migration and circuit formation [42–44].

more ... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3728923/#

If microtubule catastrophe results in deficient brain function, what does that mean?

Is Penrose talking about this?
Orchestrating size and shape during morphogenesis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_changer
Abstract

Living organisms exhibit tremendous diversity, evident in the large repertoire of forms and considerable size range. Scientists have discovered that conserved mechanisms control the development of all organisms.

Drosophila has proved to be a particularly powerful model system with which to identify the signalling pathways that organize tissue patterns. More recently, much has been learned about the control of tissue growth, tissue shape and their coordination at the cellular and tissue levels. New models integrate how specific signals and mechanical forces shape tissues and may also control their size.

more ... https://www.nature.com/articles/nature06304

Is this similar to how microtubules distribute various bits of data?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_changer

The association to quantum function is dependent on the ability of MT in processing and orchestrating all data at nano-scale and perhaps at quantum level.

 

[exchemist]

I do not want you to waste your efforts on this poster.
It sounds harsh but I tried with him on other threads but eventually bailed.
I was warned by historical members but tried to educate him anyway,you can only do that when then person is open to it.

Quite so.

On the other hand, if TheVat is able to breathe some life into this thread by finding something new to say on the original topic it was supposed to be about (long ignored though it has been by Write4U), then that could be interesting. I'll start checking this thread a bit more regularly, in case.

 

[exchemist]

Here is a competing hypothesis.

Integrated information theory (IIT) Are we talking "patterns" here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory

I love mathematics and it seems to me that, (according to Penrose and Tononi) quantum processes deal with "values" (differential equations), which puts it in the domain of mathematics. I'd love some input on this perspective.

A differential equation is not a value, you moron.

 

[Write4U]

A differential equation is not a value, you moron.

I know, you duplicitous ass. It is the difference in values that creates a dynamic imbalance and is causal to universal dynamics. I explained this ages ago.

Dynamic causal modeling (DCM) is a framework for specifying models, fitting them to data and comparing their evidence using Bayesian model comparison. It uses nonlinear state-space models in continuous time, specified using stochastic or ordinary differential equations. DCM was initially developed for testing hypotheses about neural dynamics.[1] In this setting, differential equations describe the interaction of neural populations, which directly or indirectly give rise to functional neuroimaging data e.g., functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), magnetoencephalography (MEG) or electroencephalography (EEG). Parameters in these models quantify the directed influences or effective connectivity among neuronal populations, which are estimated from the data using Bayesian statistical methods.

Procedure[edit]

DCM is typically used to estimate the coupling among brain regions and the changes in coupling due to experimental changes (e.g., time or context). A model of interacting neural populations is specified, with a level of biological detail dependent on the hypotheses and available data. This is coupled with a forward model describing how neural activity gives rise to measured responses.

Estimating the generative model identifies the parameters (e.g. connection strengths) from the observed data. Bayesian model comparison is used to compare models based on their evidence, which can then be characterised in terms of parameters.

(long ignored though it has been by Write4U)

How would you know? You don't read a word of what I post. Could it be that I am somewhat selective in my choices of what to post from among thousands of published papers?
I did not ignore my thread. I took time away from your miserable ad hominem. I am a moderator in another forum that took my time. Apart from CC, I haven't seen anything interesting and worthy of extended investigation, since.

Remember your critical lack of knowledge about chirality? I do.

Biological Significance – Pharmacology, Phamaceutical Agrochemical

One of the strangest aspects of life on Earth—and possibly of life elsewhere in the cosmos—is a feature that puzzles chemists, biologists and theoretical physicists alike. Each of life’s molecular building blocks (amino acids and sugars) has a twin—not an identical one, but a mirror image. Just like your right hand mirrors your left but will never fit comfortably into a left-handed glove, amino acids and sugars come in both right and left versions. This phenomenon of biological shape selection is called “chirality”—from the Greek for handedness.

Separations and Analysis
M.E. Powell, ... P.S. Fordred, in Comprehensive Chirality, 2012

Chirality plays a central role in the world around us, with nature and scientists producing an ever-increasing number of chiral molecules that have a wide range of different applications. The word chirality is used as a term to describe a molecule whose enantiomers are non-superimposable on their mirror images. A chiral molecule that contains a single stereogenic center may exist in an enantiopure form or as a mixture of enantiomers in varying ratios. Enantiomers exhibit identical physical and chemical properties when present in an achiral environment; however, they often behave very differently when placed in a chiral environment.

Many biologically active molecules such as proteins, nucleic acids, and sugars are chiral biopolymers that are constructed from homochiral building blocks.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/chirality#

Emergence of molecular chirality due to chiral interactions in a biological environment
Arash Tirandaz, Farhad Taher Ghahramani, and Afshin Shafiee

Abstract

We explore the interplay between tunneling process and chiral interactions in the discrimination of chiral states for an ensemble of molecules in a biological environment. Each molecule is described by an asymmetric double-well potential and the environment is modeled as a bath of harmonic oscillators.

We carefully analyze different time-scales appearing in the resulting master equation at both weak- and strong-coupling limits. The corresponding results are accompanied by a set of coupled differential equations characterizing optical activity of the molecules. We show that, at the weak-coupling limit, chiral interactions prohibit the coherent racemization induced by decoherence effects and thus preserve the initial chiral state. At the strong-coupling limit, considering the memory effects of the environment, Markovian behavior is observed at long times.

Understanding Markov Analysis

The Markov analysis process involves defining the likelihood of a future action, given the current state of a variable. Once the probabilities of future actions at each state are determined, a decision tree can be drawn, and the likelihood of a result can be calculated.

Markov analysis is often used for predicting behaviors and decisions within large groups of people.

It was named after Russian mathematician Andrei Andreyevich Markov, who pioneered the study of stochastic processes, which are processes that involve the operation of chance.

more... https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/markov-analysis.asp#

"We predict ourselves into existence" (Anil Seth)

 

[Write4U]

Two component model of microtubules and continuum approximation

Abstract

In the present work, we study the nonlinear dynamics of microtubules, the basic components of the eukaryotic cytoskeleton. We introduce a two-component model describing tangential oscillations of dimers.

A crucial nonlinear differential equation is solved using continuum approximation.

We show that the dynamics of microtubules can be explained in terms of kink and antikink solitary waves. We used two mathematical procedures, that is the tangent hyperbolic function method and, more general, the simplest equation method. It is shown that both procedures bring about equal solutions.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960077921007062

 

[Write4U]

To anonymous moderator who agrees that exchemist's lie using the term "moron" was warranted and not ad hominem or off topic.
You said: "It's not ad hominem. It's fair comment on the content of the thread."

Moron
Psychology

Description

Moron is a term once used in psychology and psychiatry to denote mild intellectual disability. The term was closely tied with the American eugenics movement. Once the term became popularized, it fell out of use by the psychological community, as it was used more commonly as an insult than as a psychological term. Wikipedia

The content of the thread is mostly copies of peer reviewed papers

I believe that makes you the moron, not me.

 

[Pinball1970]

To anonymous moderator who agrees that exchemist's lie using the term "moron" was warranted and not ad hominem or off topic.
You said: "It's not ad hominem. It's fair comment on the content of the thread."

Moron
Psychology

Description


The content of the thread is mostly copies of peer reviewed papers

I believe that makes you the moron, not me.

No it doesn't.
What makes you a profoundly stupid idiot (I prefer that) is that you post paste after paste with absolutely ZERO understanding of the underlying science.
Despite REPEATED attempts to educate you.
THAT makes you stupid, not just ignorant.

You have illustrated this again and again.
Why does this really piss me off?
People with ACTUAL knowledge on a subject may think you are critiquing it, on a certain level of understanding when you have none and I mean ZERO.
That is disrespectful and a complete waste of people's time.
This will put people off posting.
I joined this science forum expecting knowledgeable input and it is there but it is clear some of the guys are tired and weary of endless noise.
The noise to signal ratio has to be certain level to keep a science forum healthy in my opinion.

 

[Pinball1970]

I love mathematics and it seems to me that, (according to Penrose and Tononi) quantum processes deal with "values" (differential equations), which puts it in the domain of mathematics. I'd love some input on this perspective.

Good example. "I love mathematics..." With zero understanding of mathematics.

 

[James R]

To anonymous moderator who agrees that exchemist's lie using the term "moron" was warranted and not ad hominem or off topic.

There is no such moderator. No moderator has said he or she agrees that using the term "moron" was warranted or appropriate.

You said: "It's not ad hominem. It's fair comment on the content of the thread."

That was me, in response to a report you filed about post #2854 of this thread. That post does not include the word "moron". Its content is, as I said, fair comment on the content of this thread, in my opinion. More importantly, the content of that post does not breach our site posting guidelines.

As for the posts in which exchemist called you a moron, and in which you called him a "duplicitous ass", I have now issued warnings for personal insults to both of you. I assume this is the standard you wish to see applied. After all, it would be hypocritical of you to expect a different standard to be applied to you than the one you insist ought to be applied to other people. Agree?

I believe that makes you the moron, not me.

Oh dear. That's another warning, right there.

 

[James R]

And what makes the microtubule network the clear candidate for generating consciousness is the sheer number of MT and related filaments that comprise the total data distributing network that employs trillions of microtubules connected by hundreds of trillions of synapses. There simply isn't another organelle that can do what microtubules can do.

You have yet to show that there is any data processing in microtubules. Distribution, perhaps, but consciousness would require processing, I assume.

Also, I think you're working with a false dichotomy when you talk about how there "isn't another organelle...". Why do you assume that an organelle must be responsible for consciousness in the first place? You have not demonstrated that as a necessity.