Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[river]

I am trying to demonstrate the incredible utility microtubules have in all forms of life.

Clearly, the cytoskeleton is the primary substrate for all dynamic data processing functions in Eukaryotic biology. Plus the fact that brained animals have heavy concentrations of microtubules in brains and neural systems strongly suggests that they are the primary candidate for also being the substrate that yields emergent consciousness.

Most important of all MT is a self-organizing organelle (from just 2 tubulins) and is a "common denominator" in all Eukaryotic biology which must have been a "foundational genetic building block" in the abiogenetic emergence of life itself.

Writ4U , patterns without the physical , is not possible .

Highlighted

What is the root of the ; this self -organizing organelle ? Why does the organelle organize in the first place ?

 

[Write4U]

Writ4U , patterns without the physical , is not possible .

I agree. Microtubule networks are present in all living organisms and can be modelled

What is the root of the; this self -organizing organelle ? Why does the organelle organize in the first place ?

Two simple tubulins are organized in the microtubule-organizing centers in the centrosome
Abstract

The process of cellular differentiation requires the distinct spatial organization of the microtubule cytoskeleton, the arrangement of which is specific to cell type. Microtubule patterning does not occur randomly, but is imparted by distinct subcellular sites called microtubule-organizing centers (MTOCs). Since the discovery of MTOCs fifty years ago, their study has largely focused on the centrosome.

All animal cells use centrosomes as MTOCs during mitosis. However in many differentiated cells, MTOC function is reassigned to non-centrosomal sites to generate non-radial microtubule organization better suited for new cell functions, such as mechanical support or intracellular transport. Here, we review the current understanding of non-centrosomal MTOCs (ncMTOCs) and the mechanisms by which they form in differentiating animal cells.

Figure 1
Organization of MTOCs and microtubules in a variety of cell types
Microtubules (red) are organized by MTOCs (blue), the arrangement and localization of which varies with cell type. Drawings are not to scale.

Some organisms, including yeast and higher plants, lack centrosomes altogether, thus microtubule organization by definition is non-centrosomal (Figure 1). Yeast have an analogous structure to the centrosome called the spindle pole body (SPB). Although the SPB is the only MTOC in budding yeast, in fission yeast, ‘interphase MTOCs’ generate non-SPB microtubules in the cytoplasm, on the nucleus, and on other microtubules, and ‘equatorial MTOCs’ organize microtubules around the cell division site at the end of mitosis (reviewed in [40,41]).

Finally, cells of higher plants completely lack centrosomes or analogous structures, yet have elaborate cortical microtubule arrays that appear to be largely generated by microtubule-based microtubule nucleation and are required for growth and morphogenesis [42,43]. Despite the wide range of ncMTOCs in many diverse cell types, their composition and mechanisms of assembly are just beginning to be understood.

more..........
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5362366/

see also:
Synapses and Memory Storage
Mark Mayford,1 Steven A. Siegelbaum,2 and Eric R. Kandel2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3367555/

and
Microtubules in neurons as information carriers
Erik W. Dent, PhD

1 and Peter W. Baas, PhD3
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979999/

 

[river]

What is the root of the ; this self -organizing organelle ? Why does the organelle organize in the first place ?

Write4U .

 

[Write4U]

What is the root of the ; this self -organizing organelle ? Why does the organelle organize in the first place ?
Write4U .

Evolution of biochemical molecule formation. This is not unusual.
Many substances self-form into very specific patterns. The key of course is dynamic interaction what brings individual chemicals in contact and the four fundamental attractive forces do the rest. I believe it is called chirality

Natural selection then weeds out the weak links and the strong links survive . Those strong links form patterns.

here is a graphene pattern:

Graphene sheet Carbon buckyballs
In graphene, carbon atoms are packed in a planar honeycomb network. The unit cell of single-layer graphene consists of two carbon atoms, separated by 1.42 Å, with a lattice constant of 2.46 Å. Each atom has s, px and py orbitals and is bonded to three neighbor atoms in the lattice, forming an sp2 atomic network.

 

[river]

[QUOTE="Write4U, post: 3685558, member: 2618Evolution of biochemical molecule formation. This is not unusual.
Many substances self-form into very specific patterns. The key of course is dynamic interaction what brings individual chemicals in contact and the four fundamental attractive forces do the rest. I believe it is called chirality

Natural selection then weeds out the weak links and the strong links survive . Those strong links form patterns.

here is a graphene pattern:

Graphene sheet View attachment 4485 Carbon buckyballs
In graphene, carbon atoms are packed in a planar honeycomb network. The unit cell of single-layer graphene consists of two carbon atoms, separated by 1.42 Å, with a lattice constant of 2.46 Å. Each atom has s, px and py orbitals and is bonded to three neighbor atoms in the lattice, forming an sp2 atomic network.[/QUOTE]

Why Evolve ?

Do you really understand all this ?

 

[Write4U]

[quote"river, post: 3685560, member: 179019"] Why Evolve ? [/quote] In a dynamic environment it cannot do otherwise. Put Hydrogen and Oxygen together in large numbers and densities and you get water or ice (a mineral)
The atoms are attracted to each other and under the right condition, they cannot do anything other than form water.

Do you really understand all this ?

I understand the logical concepts. The actual details require years of study and knowledge which I never had an opportunity to acquire. But I am a pretty good researcher.

When I read a scientific paper, the symbolic calculations are usually way outside my scope of knowledge. But if the scientist reviewer is clear and precise I can usually understand and follow the logical narrative.

In the field of bio-chemistry I really like Robert Hazen. His lectures are clear and transparent.
IMO, he has clearly explained the concepts of self-assembly and self-formation of minerals and how this process resulted in the formation of biomolecules and the evolution of "molecular patterns" which eventually transformed purely chemical dynamics into living patterns and from there the evolutionary increase in sensitivity to environmental conditions, leading to sentience and finally the ability for conscious decision making.

This is why I usually state my conceptual beliefs in a generic manner but support my limited knowledge of detail with quotes and excerpts of scientific papers from reliable sources.

I do read what I post and understand the principles of what is presented, and feel relatively confident that I can defend the fundamental precepts of a particular scientific perspective.

I admit there are subjects which I won't touch, as they are just too esoteric for my limited knowledge.

 

[river]

[quote"river, post: 3685560, member: 179019"] Why Evolve ?

In a dynamic environment it cannot do otherwise. Put Hydrogen and Oxygen together in large numbers and densities and you get water or ice (a mineral)
The atoms are attracted to each other and under the right condition, they cannot do anything other than form water.
I understand the logical concepts. The actual details require years of study and knowledge which I never had an opportunity to acquire. But I am a pretty good researcher.

When I read a scientific paper, the symbolic calculations are usually way outside my scope of knowledge. But if the scientist reviewer is clear and precise I can usually understand and follow the logical narrative.

In the field of bio-chemistry I really like Robert Hazen. His lectures are clear and transparent.
IMO, he has clearly explained the concepts of self-assembly and self-formation of minerals and how this process resulted in the formation of biomolecules and the evolution of "molecular patterns" which eventually transformed purely chemical dynamics into living patterns and from there the evolutionary increase in sensitivity to environmental conditions, leading to sentience and finally the ability for conscious decision making.

This is why I usually state my conceptual beliefs in a generic manner but support my limited knowledge of detail with quotes and excerpts of scientific papers from reliable sources.

I do read what I post and understand the principles of what is presented, and feel relatively confident that I can defend the fundamental precepts of a particular scientific perspective.

I admit there are subjects which I won't touch, as they are just too esoteric for my limited knowledge. [/QUOTE]

Fair enough , to your last statement . We all have limited knowledge . Nowadays there is so much information , there is no way any of us can , could ever keep up .

 

[Write4U]

Fair enough , to your last statement . We all have limited knowledge . Nowadays there is so much information , there is no way any of us can , could ever keep up .

I agree. David Bohm observed that science has become so specialized that it has fractured any understanding of common denominators and relationships, in his book; "Wholeness and the Implicate Order".

Bohm Dialogue

Bohm Dialogue (also known as Bohmian Dialogue or "Dialogue in the Spirit of David Bohm") is a freely flowing group conversation in which participants attempt to reach a common understanding, experiencing everyone's point of view fully, equally and nonjudgmentally.[1] This can lead to new and deeper understanding. The purpose is to solve the communication crises that face society,[2] and indeed the whole of human nature and consciousness. It utilizes a theoretical understanding of the way thoughts relate to universal reality. It is named after physicist David Bohm who originally proposed this form of dialogue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohm_Dialogue

 

[river]

I agree. David Bohm observed that science has become so specialized that it has fractured any understanding of common denominators and relationships, in his book; "Wholeness and the Implicate Order".

Bohm Dialogue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohm_Dialogue

Holistic .

 

[Write4U]

Holistic .

The best, not the worst of both worlds!

 

[Write4U]

What is the root of the ; this self -organizing organelle ? Why does the organelle organize in the first place ?

Self-organization of microtubules and motors

• F. J. Ndlec, T. Surrey, A. C. Maggs & S. Leibler

Nature volume 389, pages305–308 (1997)Cite this article

In a cylindrical geometry, microtubules polymerizing from an initially homogeneous solution first organize into a symmetric aster centred in the chamber. As microtubules continue to grow and begin to buckle, the centre of the aster becomes unstable and a vortex structure forms. Sep 18, 1997

Abstract

Cellular structures are established and maintained through a dynamic interplay between assembly and regulatory processes. Self-organization of molecular components provides a variety of possible spatial structures: the regulatory machinery chooses the most appropriate to express a given cellular function.

Here we study the extent and the characteristics of self-organization using microtubules and molecular motors 2 as a model system. These components are known to participate in the formation of many cellular structures, such as the dynamic asters found in mitotic and meiotic spindles 3,4. Purified motors and microtubules have previously been observed to form asters in vitro 5.

We have reproduced this result with a simple system consisting solely of multi-headed constructs of the motor protein kinesin 6 and stabilized microtubules. We show that dynamic asters can also be obtained from a homogeneous solution of tubulin and motors. By varying the relative concentrations of the components, we obtain a variety of self-organized structures. Further, by studying this process in a constrained geometry of micro-fabricated glass chambers 7, we demonstrate that the same final structure can be reached through different assembly ‘pathways’.

https://www.nature.com/articles/38532#

 

[river]

Self-organization of microtubules and motors

• F. J. Ndlec, T. Surrey, A. C. Maggs & S. Leibler

Nature volume 389, pages305–308 (1997)Cite this article
Abstract

https://www.nature.com/articles/38532#

So what is your conclusion ?

 

[Write4U]

So what is your conclusion ?

Being that MT are found in ALL eukaryotic organisms (in a simpler form in prokaryotes), it is axiomatic that the MT must have been one of the first self-assembling bio-chemical polymers and due to its dynamic growth properties may well have been instrumental in the abiogenetic bridging between bio-chemistry and life itself.

Moreover, being such an ancient property of all life, it also suggests that

Microtubules in Bacteria: Ancient Tubulins Build a Five-Protofilament Homolog of the Eukaryotic Cytoskeleton

Abstract

All tubulins evolved from a common ancestor they share with the distantly related bacterial cell division protein FtsZ, but while eukaryotic tubulins evolved into highly conserved microtubule-forming heterodimers, bacterial FtsZ presumably continued to function as single homopolymeric protofilaments as it does today.

Microtubules have not previously been found in bacteria, and we lack insight into their evolution from the tubulin/FtsZ ancestor. Using electron cryomicroscopy, here we show that the tubulin homologs BtubA and BtubB form microtubules in bacteria and suggest these be referred to as “bacterial microtubules” (bMTs).

bMTs share important features with their eukaryotic counterparts, such as straight protofilaments and similar protofilament interactions. bMTs are composed of only five protofilaments, however, instead of the 13 typical in eukaryotes.

These and other results suggest that rather than being derived from modern eukaryotic tubulin, BtubA and BtubB arose from early tubulin intermediates that formed small microtubules.

Since we show that bacterial microtubules can be produced in abundance in vitro without chaperones, they should be useful tools for tubulin research and drug screening.

Using state-of-the-art microscopy, we demonstrate here that microtubules do exist in some bacteria. These bacterial microtubules are built from proteins that are closely related to the microtubule proteins in eukaryotes.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001213#

The more I learn about the history and range of functional abilities at the very fundamental levels of living organisms, I am confident in suggesting microtubules are also instrumental in the emergent awareness of sentient data processing and may well form the actual substrate and dynamic mechanism for emergent consciouness.

Of course there is more involved in the actual expression of conscious experience, but IMO the entire neural network and especially the MT network in the brain is responsible for the emergence of self-aware thought.

The components are not sentient. It is the act of processing data, whence consciousness emerges.

 

[river]

Being that MT are found in ALL eukaryotic organisms (in a simpler form in prokaryotes), it is axiomatic that the MT must have been one of the first self-assembling bio-chemical polymers and due to its dynamic growth properties may well have been instrumental in the biogenetic bridging between bio-chemistry and life itself.

Moreover, being such an ancient property of all life, it also suggests that


Microtubules in Bacteria: Ancient Tubulins Build a Five-Protofilament Homolog of the Eukaryotic Cytoskeleton

Abstract
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001213#

The more I learn about the history and range of functional abilities at the very fundamental levels of living organisms, I am confident in suggesting microtubules are also instrumental in the emergent awareness of sentient data processing and may well form the actual substrate and dynamic mechanism for emergent consciouness.

Of course there is more involved in the actual expression of conscious experience, but IMO the entire neural network and especially the MT network in the brain is responsible for the emergence of self-aware thought.

The components are not sentient. It is the act of processing data, whence consciousness emerges.

Highlighted

Experiences . Come first . Biological Components are sentient . Hence consciousness .

 

[Write4U]

Highlighted

Experiences . Come first . Biological Components are sentient . Hence consciousness .

I believe you are misusing the word sentient in this context. IMO, a better word might be "sensitive".

I see a difference between;
a) sensitive = reactive to stimuli
b) sentient = conscious self-awareness

A chemical may be sensitive and reactive, but not conscious. Water may turn into Ice, but doesn't know it.
A human brain is conscious as an evolved excellence of sensitivity and reactivity. A human may watch water turn into Ice and wonder how that works.

 

[river]

From your post#2215 , Write4U

A chemical may be sensitive and reactive, but not conscious.

Agreed .

 

[river]

I see a difference between;
a) sensitive = reactive to stimuli
b) sentient = conscious self-awareness

Evolution from a to b .

 

[Write4U]

Evolution from a to b .

Yessss! The evolution of the eye and vision (the processing of sensory data) is the perfect example.

From a light-sensitive chemical growth machine in sunflowers causing the flowers to track the sun in the sky for maximum growth potential, to an eagle's ability to spot a mouse from a mile high. The natural selection driven creative artistry in beneficial survival strategies is just awesome to contemplate.

 

[Write4U]

duplicate

 

[Write4U]

This may add another perspective of the importance of the role played by microtubule network as part of the energy distribution along the cell membrane of the bacterium depicted.