Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[river]

river said: ↑
Highlighted

Their properties . Spin , magnetic field , mass , vibration and environment in which they are in .

But these properties are acquired during the self-assembly of atoms.
I cannot see any randomness in any of these regular processes. When there are patterns there is mathematics.

Because of the physical ; Patterns exist .

 

[Write4U]

Because of the physical ; Patterns exist .

Mathematics as the Science of Patterns -

These mathematical objects form a kind of “quasi-reality” which permits the researcher to conduct experiments similar to experiments in science (see also Dörfler 1991). The availability of computers has greatly enhanced the access to these “quasi-realities”.

In a recent paper an eminent research mathematician wrote (Arnold 1998, 229, 233): “Mathematics is a part of physics… I get the impression that mathematicians who have little knowledge of physics believe in the principal difference of axiomatic mathematics from the modeling which is common in natural science and which always requires the subsequent checking of deductions by an experiment.

Every working mathematician knows that, without some form of control (best of all by examples), after some ten pages half the signs in formulae will be wrong and twos will find their way from denominators into numerators. The technology of combating such errors is the same external control by experiments or observations as is to be found in any experimental science and it should be taught to all juniors in school.”

In general education informal representations of mathematical objects are indispensable as they provide a “quasi-reality” which is easier to grasp and to work on than symbolic representations.

https://mathinfo.unistra.fr/website...vol_11_et_suppl/adsc11supplweb_wittmaneng.pdf

 

[river]

New
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Because of the physical ; Patterns exist .

Mathematics as the Science of Patterns -

Based on the physical .

 

[Write4U]

Based on the physical .

That applies only to the human observation and symbolized recording of the physical expression. The physical unfolds in accordance to natural (mathematical) guiding equations.

 

[river]

That applies only to the human observation and symbolized recording of the physical expression. The physical unfolds in accordance to natural (mathematical) guiding equations.

No it is due to Human experience . Not just observation . Of the physical movements of things .

Show that the mathematics , alone , can guide anything physical . You can't , nobody can . Because it can't .

 

[Write4U]

No it is due to Human experience . Not just observation . Of the physical movements of things .

Orderly patterns existed since the beginning. I believe that one of the properties of a living organism is the ability to experience its environment and respond to external stimuli.
Take the single celled paramecium's ability to navigate via dynamic chemistry where ion flow causes a little chemical machine to turn. The phenomenon of dynamic chemistry is abundant in nature as a result of some causality, like rusting, acid reaction, heat, polymer forming and breaking, but in living organism dynamic chemistry can be used as a survival mechanism. This is already expressed in insects, ancient creatures which are able to use just about every natural trick to survive. A Mayfly with a lifespan of some 30 hrs has the ability to attract a mate from miles away by exuding a pheromone which the male can follow directly to its female source and mate before they both die.

Show that the mathematics , alone , can guide anything physical . You can't , nobody can . Because it can't .

Causality and causation: What we learn from mathematical dynamic systems theory (Niko Sauer)
6. CAUSATION We now turn to the question of why states change. In mathematical modelling the mechanism of an evolution process is often captured in an equation of evolution of the form u’(t) = Au(t) + f[t,u(t)] , (6.1) where u’(t) denotes the time rate of change of the function u at time t in phase space; A is an operator which represents the influence of internal agents to change and f the influence of external agents. An equation such as (6.1) should be interpreted as the rate at which the states change is caused by the working of internal agents to which is added the influence of external agents. This, of course presumes that the state space is also a vector space so that entities can be added. Nonetheless, this is the essence of causation – the identification of what we think the causes of change are.[/quote]

As a less metaphorical example, let us the consider the question of heat transfer in a physical object. The operator A (often the Laplacian) represents the hypothesis that thermal energy flows from a point in the body to points at lower temperatures. This is the internal influence. The external influence f is due to energy inputs due to ‘sources‘; a potato in a microwave oven, for example. This may well depend on the temperature at a point in the body, also because of the thermodynamics popularly referred to as Newton’s law of cooling

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00359191003680091#

It seems to me that mathematics go deeper than physical interaction and expression. It seems to be a fundamental requirement for anything to be able to become expressed.

The law of Cause and Effect is a mathematical equation.

Causality

Causality (also referred to as causation, or cause and effect) is influence by which one event, process, state or object (a cause) contributes to the production of another event, process, state or object (an effect) where the cause is partly responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause. In general, a process has many causes,[1] which are also said to be causal factors for it, and all lie in its past. An effect can in turn be a cause of, or causal factor for, many other effects, which all lie in its future. Some writers have held that causality is metaphysically prior to notions of time and space.[2][3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality

David Bohm writes about this in his book "Wholeness and the Implicate Order", where he proposes that future events are already mathematically "implied" before they can become physically "explicated" from very subtle to gross expression in reality.

They may not be causal per se, but the Implicate calculates the probability of something specific about to happen before it happens.

The free pdf which is an asset to any scientific library:

http://www.gci.org.uk/Documents/DavidBohm-WholenessAndTheImplicateOrder.pdf

One of the easiest ways for students to begin thinking about cause-&-effect is through an "input-output" machine.
This simple graphic organizer can help students understand that the function (machine) processes the input (cause) and results in the output (effect).
Input-Output machines also provide a great deal of practice solving simple equations and are easily and quickly graded.

https://sites.google.com/site/teachingthinking2010/cause-effect-in-math

Note the implied results are already present in the Input prior to the Output.
The reason that cause and effect is not a random event is due to the mathematical nature of the processing functions.

 

[river]

Show that the mathematics , alone , can guide anything physical . You can't , nobody can . Because it can't .

Causality and causation: What we learn from mathematical dynamic systems theory (Niko Sauer)

6. CAUSATION We now turn to the question of why states change. In mathematical modelling the mechanism of an evolution process is often captured in an equation of evolution of the form u’(t) = Au(t) + f[t,u(t)] , (6.1) where u’(t) denotes the time rate of change of the function u at time t in phase space; A is an operator which represents the influence of internal agents to change and f the influence of external agents. An equation such as (6.1) should be interpreted as the rate at which the states change is caused by the working of internal agents to which is added the influence of external agents. This, of course presumes that the state space is also a vector space so that entities can be added. Nonetheless, this is the essence of causation – the identification of what we think the causes of change are.

We learn from mathematics no doubt . But mathematics is always a consequence of the physical . Mathematics can't actually change anything physical unless the mathematics is transforms into something that is real , physical . Otherwise mathematics is just numbers based on the physical .

Highlighted

Sure . Based on the mathematics of the physical .

 

[Write4U]

Sure . Based on the mathematics of the physical .

Based on the inherent mathematics and expressed in the physical.

David Bohm's Implicate and Explicate orders.

 

[river]

Based on the inherent mathematics and expressed in the physical.

Disagree

Based on the inherent physical actions , understood by mathematics . But based in the end , of physical movements of things .

David Bohm's Implicate and Explicate orders.

Which are ?

 

[Write4U]

Disagree
Based on the inherent physical actions , understood by mathematics . But based in the end, of physical movements of things .

Reality consists of mathematical interactions of values expressed as physical objects.

Which are ?

Read David Bohm.

 

[river]

Reality consists of mathematical interactions of values expressed as physical objects.
Read David Bohm.

The essence of these mathematical interactions values is physically based .

Mathematics in and of its self can not produce any thing .

 

[Write4U]

The essence of these mathematical interactions values is physically based .

Mathematics in and of its self can not produce any thing .

I never said that. The inherent mathematics imply how physical reality will be expressed. The Implicate (Bohm).

 

[Write4U]

I believe that the "mirror neural system" in the brain is another "hard fact" that may point to some specific brain region and neurons, and allows a person to share “the same reality” with another merely by observance of body language. It is commonly referred to as “empathy”.

This experience can be as wonderful and exciting as a religious experience which is fundamentally the same experience, but falsely attributed to some supernatural agency.

This can be a very powerful emotion, such as 50,000 people experiencing a shared emotion in support of the “home team” during a sporting event or the Olympic games. But can also be a shared experience when lovers share an evening watching the full moon. It allows individuals to "share the same reality" .

This ability is already present in many animals and the mental phenomenon was discovered during experiments with macaque monkeys. But there are numerous examples of unrelated species helping another species in trouble.

OTOH, a person with autism typically lack this mirror response and is causal to their inability to relate to others.

But it appears that "a friend in need is a friend indeed" is pervasive in nature.

Brookfield Zoo gorilla helps boy who fell into habitat

On Aug. 16, 1996, a crowd of visitors at Brookfield Zoo looked on in horror as they saw a toddler tumble more than 15 feet into a habitat, landing near seven gorillas. But as zoo patrons cried out for help, expecting the worst for the 3-year-old boy lying on the concrete below, an unlikely hero emerged.

Binti-Jua, a rare western lowland gorilla, lumbered over to the boy, cradled him in her arms, carried him to a doorway and laid him gingerly at the feet of waiting paramedics. The female gorilla appeared to act out of purely maternalistic compassion for the human child.

Binti Jua, an 8-year-old female western lowlan gorilla, is shown in an image from television rescuing a toddler who fell into the primate exhibit on Aug. 16, 1996, at Brookfield Zoo (WLS-TV)

"She picked up the boy, kind of cradling him, and walked him around," Sondra Catzen, a zoo spokeswoman, told the Tribune at the time.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...ookfield-zoo-anniversary-20160815-story.html#

# Mirror neuron system

Mirror neuron system is a group of specialized neurons that “mirrors” the actions and behaviour of others. The involvement of mirror neuron system (MNS) is implicated in neurocognitive functions (social cognition, language, empathy, theory of mind) and neuropsychiatric disorders. MNS discovery is considered to be the most important landmark in neuroscience research during the last decade.

DISCOVERY

The mirror neurons were discovered serendipitously by Giacomo Rizzolatti and colleagues while working on the grasp response of macaques. They observed that a group of neurons in the area F5 of the premotor cortex that fires when a macaque performs an action; also discharges when it observes the same action being performed by another animal.[1] Subsequent research has elucidated the diverse regions involved in the MNS of monkeys. Recently different cortical structures have been described as part of the MNS in humans.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2900004/#

 

[James R]

AFAIK, you have not posted anything of real substance on the subject other than telling me that I and the scientists I quote were all wrong, but without the "why they were wrong".

Mostly, I have settled for saying that the scientists and other sources you have quoted have not made a good case for what you/they claim - that consciousness is caused by microtubules.

It's not up to me to prove you wrong. It's up to you/them to prove you're/they're right.

 

[Write4U]

Mostly, I have settled for saying that the scientists and other sources you have quoted have not made a good case for what you/they claim - that consciousness is caused by microtubules.

It's not up to me to prove you wrong. It's up to you/them to prove you're/they're right.

And that is exactly what I am doing. But remember no one has proof. I don't claim to have proof.
My aim is, from available data, to prove that microtubules and related organelles like intermediate and microfilaments (dendrites) form the physical neural substrate (pattern) that allows for the emergence of consciousness, just as the physical substrate pattern of a slime mold allows it to solve mazes, perhaps without being self-aware, but being aware enough to find food in a most efficient way.

On the role of the plasmodial cytoskeleton in facilitating intelligent behavior in slime mold Physarum polycephalum

Abstract

The plasmodium of slime mold Physarum polycephalum behaves as an amorphous reaction-diffusion computing substrate and is capable of apparently ‘intelligent’ behavior. But how does intelligence emerge in an acellular organism? Through a range of laboratory experiments, we visualize the plasmodial cytoskeleton—a ubiquitous cellular protein scaffold whose functions are manifold and essential to life—and discuss its putative role as a network for transducing, transmitting and structuring data streams within the plasmodium.

Through a range of computer modeling techniques, we demonstrate how emergent behavior, and hence computational intelligence, may occur in cytoskeletal communications networks.

Specifically, we model the topology of both the actin and tubulin cytoskeletal networks and discuss how computation may occur therein. Furthermore, we present bespoke cellular automata and particle swarm models for the computational process within the cytoskeleton and observe the incidence of emergent patterns in both.

Our work grants unique insight into the origins of natural intelligence; the results presented here are therefore readily transferable to the fields of natural computation, cell biology and biomedical science. We conclude by discussing how our results may alter our biological, computational and philosophical understanding of intelligence and consciousness.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594612/

Note that the "cytoskeleton communication networks" is another term for the microtubule and related filaments

And the ability of flowers to sense the position of the sun and use photosynthesis for energy.

Plant Cell Architecture: Growth Toward A Light Source

The cytoskeleton undergirding each cell includes an array of tubule-shaped protein fibers called microtubules. By directing cell growth and development, this scaffold is crucial for supporting important plant functions such as photosynthesis, nutrient gathering, and reproduction.

https://carnegiescience.edu/news/plant-cell-architecture-growth-toward-light-source#

But then these organisms are pretty low on the evolutionary level of microtubule network complexity, yet they already express extraordinary signs of sentient behavior.

Is there any known neural data processor organelle that is a "common denominator" of all Eukaryotic organisms involved in electrochemical data processing, other than microtubules?

If not then that must be the fundamental key, unless we adopt the assumption of an extraneous agency and we land in the world of spiritual woo.

Microtubules are a shared property of all biological organisms that display some form of sentience. To me, this is irrefutable evidence that warrants extraordinary attention and research. And AFAIK, that is in fact happening. I am just trying to report on the most recent findings.

I am not alone in this conviction. And the people who are in fact doing the research can claim knowledge and experience in the field of neurology and consciousness. They think the effort is worthwhile.

 

[James R]

Microtubules are a shared property of all biological organisms that display some form of sentience.

So is DNA. So are carbon atoms. So is ATP. etc. etc.

 

[Write4U]

So is DNA. So are carbon atoms. So is ATP. etc. etc.

DNA is data, Carbon atoms are biochemical building blocks, ATP is fuel. These are the blue-print and building blocks of organisms. It is true, all these ingredients are necessary but not sufficient.
Microtubules are dynamic processors and are both necessary and sufficient. MT is required for the processing of all these ingredients.
MT read and copy the DNA in cell division, provide rigidity to the body, transport the bio-molecules, process light in photosynthesis, and form the transport and distribution of mechanism of electrochemical sensory signals in neurons,
and are the motors responsible for motility in pseudopodia and flagella.

MT are the little elves that build and run all of nature's gifts. They are essential for dynamic biological life.

 

[Write4U]

Microtubule Mechanics: A Little Flexibility Goes a Long Way
Author links open overlay panelJames L.McGrath

Figure 1. The different shapes of microtubules under pressure. Microtubules experience compressive forces that cause them to buckle. When centering chromosomes in the mitotic spindle (A) or centering the nucleus of an asymmetrically growing fission yeast (B), microtubules are compressed by the forces of polymerization and buckle with long wavelength shapes. In the cytoplasm of interphase cells (C) microtubules occasionally experience more dramatic folds over local spans. New research suggests these short wavelength buckles are evidence of significant myosin-generated compression in the cytoplasm, and that interphase microtubules are likely to be laterally reinforced by their connections to actin and intermediate filaments.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982206020550

Question; What is the MT role in the phenomenon of emergent empathy in "mirror neurons"

Naturalizing Cognition: The Integration of Cognitive Science and Biology

The existence of mirror neurons strongly suggests a motor resonance mechanism for action recognition and understanding. That is, using the mirror neuron mechanism, animal A understands animal B’s action and intent as the same action and intent that it would have in this situation [7].

Mirror Neurons : The Gateway To Empathy
Posted on March 15, 2017 by milliesc
By Olivia Bray, 12W

What are mirror neurons?

Mirror neurons are neurons in your brain that fire when you see something happen to someone or when someone performs an action. Mirror neurons are why you flinch when you unexpectedly see someone getting punched, or why your hands may twitch if you see someone grab an object. These neurons make you experience the same sensations as the person who performed the action in the first place, so it’s as if you were punched in the face or grabbed the object.

Mirror neurons were actually discovered accidentally. In the 1990s, Italian researchers hooked macaques up to electrodes so that their brain activity could be monitored. One day, when a researcher reached out to grab some food during his lunch break, he noticed that one of the monkeys was watching him and neurons were activated in his prefrontal cortex, the area of the brain that controls movement. The brain activity was exactly as if the macaque had grabbed the food himself.

This led to further experimentation in 1995, where a study found that when people watched someone grabbing an object, their hand muscles instinctively tensed as if in preparation for grabbing that object themselves, which proved the existence of mirror neurons.

How do mirror neurons work?

To understand how mirror neurons work, we must first understand the general structure of neurons.

There are three main parts of a neuron: the dendrites that detect electrical messages, the axon that messages travel along, and the synapses that let messages be passed on to other neurons.

There are also three different types of neurons. Sensory neurons detect stimuli from outside the body and create messages conveying information from the outside world to the relay neurons that take that information to the brain or spinal cord. Once the nervous system decides on an appropriate response to the stimulus, it sends this response in an electrical message to a motor neuron that can activate the right muscles to respond to the stimulus.

Mirror neurons work in the same way. Sensory neurons in the eyes transmit electrical messages conveying what the eyes are seeing, these messages get sent to the brain, and sometimes they result in motor neuron action (which is why we have reflexes).

The memory of that message and the response is imprinted in the brain through neuron action, and the neuron response is replicated whenever someone remembers that stimulus or sees it happening again. The memory pattern is in the same location in the brain as where the neurons would have fired if you’d experienced that action yourself, and the effect is particularly noticeable if the experience you are recalling or seeing is particularly noteworthy or emotionally resonant (such as watching someone hurt themselves).

https://issciencejournalblog.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/mirror-neurons-the-gateway-to-empathy/

I believe that much information can be gleaned from studying mirror neural responses as they occur in the same location of the brain and can thus be verified as specific to that brain function. The main problem of brain research as I see it is the fact that each brain has a somewhat different configuration and shows different responses in observation of objects or events.
However, mirror neurons imitate the exact same brain response in another subject and should be readily comparable.

Anyway, I have not researched this yet, so more to come later .......

 

[James R]

Microtubules are dynamic processors and are both necessary and sufficient.

What do microtubules "process"? How do they "process" it?
Necessary and sufficient for what? Consciousness? Explain how processing in microtubules produces consciousness.

MT read and copy the DNA in cell division...

What? Explain how a microtubule can "read" or "copy" DNA. Does it do that all by itself?

... process light in photosynthesis...

What? Explain how a microtubule can "process light". What does it "process" light into? How does it do that?

... and are the motors responsible for motility in pseudopodia and flagella.

Microtubules are motors, as well, now?

MT are the little elves that build and run all of nature's gifts.

Your unevidence faith in the little things makes them approximately equivalent to elves, I agree.

 

[James R]

Microtubule Mechanics: A Little Flexibility Goes a Long Way
Author links open overlay panelJames L.McGrath

Figure 1. The different shapes of microtubules under pressure. Microtubules experience compressive forces that cause them to buckle. When centering chromosomes in the mitotic spindle (A) or centering the nucleus of an asymmetrically growing fission yeast (B), microtubules are compressed by the forces of polymerization and buckle with long wavelength shapes. In the cytoplasm of interphase cells (C) microtubules occasionally experience more dramatic folds over local spans. New research suggests these short wavelength buckles are evidence of significant myosin-generated compression in the cytoplasm, and that interphase microtubules are likely to be laterally reinforced by their connections to actin and intermediate filaments.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982206020550

Question; What is the MT role in the phenomenon of emergent empathy in "mirror neurons"

Naturalizing Cognition: The Integration of Cognitive Science and Biology


Mirror Neurons : The Gateway To Empathy
Posted on March 15, 2017 by milliesc
By Olivia Bray, 12W

What are mirror neurons?

How do mirror neurons work?

https://issciencejournalblog.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/mirror-neurons-the-gateway-to-empathy/

I believe that much information can be gleaned from studying mirror neural responses as they occur in the same location of the brain and can thus be verified as specific to that brain function. The main problem of brain research as I see it is the fact that each brain has a somewhat different configuration and shows different responses in observation of objects or events.
However, mirror neurons imitate the exact same brain response in another subject and should be readily comparable.

Anyway, I have not researched this yet, so more to come later .......

Weird. That post starts off talking about microtubules, then it moves on to mirror neurons, but nothing in the mirror neuron section mentions microtubules at all. What's special about microtubules in mirror neurons?