Is Atheism Irrelavent?

[Magical Realist]

It is the search for God that draws my attention to what happened before the big bang, beyond the space-time continuum. What is behind the big bang singularity?

Saying God caused the Big Bang only creates a bigger mystery. How did God do it and why and how did God originate? It explains nothing. So you are only using the "before the Big Bang" ruse as an excuse to hold onto a being that cannot be found anywhere else at all. The overwhelming and constant absence of God from the cosmos disturbs you. It threatens you with the prospect of actually having to create your own meaning instead of relying on some prepackaged fairy tale about a magical being watching over you and sparing you from having to cease to exist in death. Why don't you just take comfort in your own miniscule insignificance and move on? Many people do this every day. It's actually quite liberating to know you are not special and that everything will go on just fine without you. Every experience meaningful here and now for its own sake without having to have some reason or purpose for some future goal.

 

[Grumpy]

arauca

Sorry I believe your first paragraph is irreverent ( Tea Party )

Irreverent? To the Tea Party? You Betcha, I will always be irreverent to stupid people who try to run the country according to their stupidity. If you meant to use the word IRRELIVANT you are still wrong, (Magical Thinking).

Religion or belief is not stopping science

Climate change denial is based on the magical thinking that man cannot be responsible because only a god could do that. And the so-called morals the Right Wing are causing so much fuss over(abortion, healthcare, etc.)comes from their faulty understanding of Christianity. I won't even mention the mess Islam has made of civilization.). You don't get out much, do you?

religion did not stop scientific exploration

So burning Bruno alive, at the stake, in the Vatican courtyard no less, had no deleterious effects on Bruno's investigations? He just continued with his scientific exploration? And modern teabaggers haven't hindered climate science? They have failed to stop the advancements of science, but it wasn't because they didn't try their best to do so. When not actively blocking the teaching of the facts of evolution, preferring the fairy tale of creation. Magical thinking always is opposed to actual fact based thought if it threatens the magical thinkers erroneous conclusions(the erroneous conclusions that they live by, to the detriment of their society).

Ever I believed in a Creator and I continue believing . I believe our spiritual life does not hinder to continue work in exploration.

Glad you were able to work around that handicap, even severely disabled people should seek work at a level where their disability is not a problem glad you succeeded.

Grumpy

 

[arauca]

How can you hate what does not exist?

It is still astounding that you don't understand what 'living life to the fullest' means. Actually, it is kind of sad.

You are so constrained and restricted by your religious dogma that you cannot even imagine what it means to live life without such restrictions. You rely so much on your God, that you can't even imagine or see what is out there. Because for you, 'God did it'.

How positive you are that it does not exist / You must have done some research and was verified to come to such conclusion .Otherwise you jest blabbering .


Constrain . we all have constrain wen we live within a society ,

 

[billvon]

Atheism directly compares with religion (theism). Atheists believe that god does not exist. That is a belief.

That's like claiming that both omnivores and vegetarians are meat-eaters, because they both think about meat when planning their diets.

 

[Mazulu]

Saying God caused the Big Bang only creates a bigger mystery. How did God do it and why and how did God originate? It explains nothing. So you are only using the "before the Big Bang" ruse as an excuse to hold onto a being that cannot be found anywhere else at all. The overwhelming and constant absence of God from the cosmos disturbs you. It threatens you with the prospect of actually having to create your own meaning instead of relying on some prepackaged fairy tale about a magical being watching over you and sparing you from having to cease to exist in death. Why don't you just take comfort in your own miniscule insignificance and move on? Many people do this every day. It's actually quite liberating to know you are not special and that everything will go on just fine without you. Every experience meaningful here and now for its own sake without having to have some reason or purpose for some future goal.

So you want to know how to create a universe? Well, first you have to start with a jar of space-time continuum. You have to program it with physics constants like G and c. Then you take a jar of quantum mechanics and you smear it on the blob of space-time. You have to program it with the particles that you want and their properties such as life-time. Then you roll it up really good into a tiny ball. Then, very dramatically, you say, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!!!" Then you throw it and watch it explode.

 

[billvon]

Religion or belief is not stopping science , Science have grown in the last 100 years religion did not stop scientific exploration

True, but it did slow it down. For years religious leaders stopped the teaching of science (specifically evolution) in US classrooms, and nowadays are trying to stop the teaching of climate science.

During my early years working in extracting proteines from different materials did not hinder scientific advancement . In the 1960 + I worked in introduction of laser as a light source for colored specimen for moving boundary electrophoresis in the company were I worked . We worked in the earliest IR. using Fourier trans. and observed emission IR. instead of absorption. and many other work. Ever I believed in a Creator and I continue believing . I believe our spiritual life does not hinder to continue work in exploration.

Nowadays in most cases it does not. In a few cases it does.

 

[Mazulu]

That's like claiming that both omnivores and vegetarians are meat-eaters, because they both think about meat when planning their diets.

A vegetarian is "not" a meat eater, by definition. When you do the comparison, you discover that the difference is that one of them has a "not" in front of it. C'mon dude, are you really going to argue semantics.

 

[Magical Realist]

So you want to know how to create a universe? Well, first you have to start with a jar of space-time continuum. You have to program it with physics constants like G and c. Then you take a jar of quantum mechanics and you smear it on the blob of space-time. You have to program it with the particles that you want and their properties such as life-time. Then you roll it up really good into a tiny ball. Then, very dramatically, you say, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!!!" Then you throw it and watch it explode.

Doesn't explain a thing. A person floating around before spacetimematterenergy is a nonsensical notion to start with. Personhood abstracted from a universe to be related to makes not a bit of sense. Adding it onto the tailend of what we don't understand sufficiently yet is like saying because we don't understand what is causing the symptoms of an illness we should call it a magical demon. That's not understanding. That's obfuscation that shuts down all future exploration..

 

[Mazulu]

Doesn't explain a thing. A person floating around before spacetimematterenergy is a nonsensical notion to start with. Personhood abstracted from a universe to be related to makes not a bit of sense. Adding it onto the tailend of what we don't understand sufficiently yet is like saying because we don't understand what is causing the symptoms of an illness we should call it a magical demon. That's not understanding. That's obfuscation that shuts down all future exploration..

If personhood bothers you, then replace it with a natural process. But then one has to ask if space-time continuum stuff is different from quantum-mechanics stuff (wave-functions), or is one related to the other. Is a wave-function just a piece of space-time?

I'm not obfuscating; it's you're thinking that is limited.

 

[arauca]

arauca



Irreverent? To the Tea Party? You Betcha, I will always be irreverent to stupid people who try to run the country according to their stupidity. If you meant to use the word IRRELIVANT you are still wrong, (Magical Thinking).



Climate change denial is based on the magical thinking that man cannot be responsible because only a god could do that. And the so-called morals the Right Wing are causing so much fuss over(abortion, healthcare, etc.)comes from their faulty understanding of Christianity. I won't even mention the mess Islam has made of civilization.). You don't get out much, do you?



So burning Bruno alive, at the stake, in the Vatican courtyard no less, had no deleterious effects on Bruno's investigations? He just continued with his scientific exploration? And modern teabaggers haven't hindered climate science? They have failed to stop the advancements of science, but it wasn't because they didn't try their best to do so. When not actively blocking the teaching of the facts of evolution, preferring the fairy tale of creation. Magical thinking always is opposed to actual fact based thought if it threatens the magical thinkers erroneous conclusions(the erroneous conclusions that they live by, to the detriment of their society).



Glad you were able to work around that handicap, even severely disabled people should seek work at a level where their disability is not a problem glad you succeeded.

Grumpy

I had a higher esteem of you but your answers have disappointed me.

 

[Magical Realist]

If personhood bothers you, then replace it with a natural process. But then one has to ask if space-time continuum stuff is different from quantum-mechanics stuff (wave-functions), or is one related to the other. Is a wave-function just a piece of space-time?

I'm not obfuscating; it's you're thinking that is limited.

I'll wait for science to discover the natural process, not you. Thanks anyway..

 

[Grumpy]

Mazulu

Religious beliefs provide structure and orderliness to one's life. Just like our skeletal system provides structure and orderliness to our bodies; without a standard of beliefs, we become a blob of undisciplined spiritual confusion.

Structure and orderliness are fine, but when it is imposed by an outside organization(say a military or religious one)it is a leash, a constraint on whatever that person could have become. Self discipline is another source for order and structure, one not so constrained by the outside organization. Mutual self interest is also a good way to conduct politics, making commandments from on high redundant and silly. Teaching yourself how to create structure and order is much, much better than reading an instruction book who's arbitrary and outdated rules are enforced by threats of punishment(Inquisition, loss of soul, eternal damnation, courts martial, etc.). Once one builds one's morals from the ground up through logic, compassion and enlightened self-interest one has a superior basis for those morals. Once a person realizes that spirituality is only found internally(it cannot be imposed)then that person wastes no more time searching for it elsewhere.

What is behind the big bang singularity?

We don't know, but have no reason to think it was a deity.

All I'm saying is that physics is incomplete.

It will ALWAYS be incomplete, there are things that we will probably never know, the Big Bang cause being just one of them. There are things we will probably never do, faster than light travel is one of those. It's not a matter of how much power we control, it's a matter of what the Universe allows. And if the most energetic events in the Universe(Quasars, hypernovas, colliding Black Holes)show not one sign that anything is travelling faster than light, we have no hope. That is not a failure, it is a realization of the Universe and it's properties. That travel to other stars is going to be one way and hundreds if not thousands of years in the doing is not a real constraint to us right now, we have a whole, light years wide solar system to develop, probably a few centuries of work and MILLIONS of times the living space and resources here on Earth. Being uninspired about what science does is a deficit in you, not in science. And if you think scientists don't get spiritual about these things you're delusional.

Grumpy

 

[(Q)]

How positive you are that it does not exist / You must have done some research and was verified to come to such conclusion .

Could you possibly be more hypocritical?

 

[(Q)]

So you want to know how to create a universe? Well, first you have to start with a jar of space-time continuum. You have to program it with physics constants like G and c. Then you take a jar of quantum mechanics and you smear it on the blob of space-time. You have to program it with the particles that you want and their properties such as life-time. Then you roll it up really good into a tiny ball. Then, very dramatically, you say, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!!!" Then you throw it and watch it explode.

Stunning ignorance coupled with religious zealotry, toss it out and watch everyone laugh hysterically.

 

[Mazulu]

Mazulu

Structure and orderliness are fine, but when it is imposed by an outside organization(say a military or religious one)it is a leash, a constraint on whatever that person could have become. Self discipline is another source for order and structure, one not so constrained by the outside organization. Mutual self interest is also a good way to conduct politics, making commandments from on high redundant and silly. Teaching yourself how to create structure and order is much, much better than reading an instruction book who's arbitrary and outdated rules are enforced by threats of punishment(Inquisition, loss of soul, eternal damnation, courts martial, etc.). Once one builds one's morals from the ground up through logic, compassion and enlightened self-interest one has a superior basis for those morals. Once a person realizes that spirituality is only found internally(it cannot be imposed)then that person wastes no more time searching for it elsewhere.

Freedom of religion also means the freedom not to worship.

We don't know, but have no reason to think it was a deity.

Believers believe it was God. Personally, I believe in Spiritualism. I believe there is a spiritual realm inhabited by spirits. Those spirits continue to their religious practices in the spirit world. I believe that the big bang was caused be an event that occurred in the spirit realm.

It will ALWAYS be incomplete, there are things that we will probably never know, the Big Bang cause being just one of them. There are things we will probably never do, faster than light travel is one of those. It's not a matter of how much power we control, it's a matter of what the Universe allows. And if the most energetic events in the Universe(Quasars, hypernovas, colliding Black Holes)show not one sign that anything is travelling faster than light, we have no hope. That is not a failure, it is a realization of the Universe and it's properties. That travel to other stars is going to be one way and hundreds if not thousands of years in the doing is not a real constraint to us right now, we have a whole, light years wide solar system to develop, probably a few centuries of work and MILLIONS of times the living space and resources here on Earth. Being uninspired about what science does is a deficit in you, not in science. And if you think scientists don't get spiritual about these things you're delusional. Grumpy

Atheists scientists think that spirituality is delusional.

 

[Magical Realist]

Atheists scientists think that spirituality is delusional.

“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

 

[spidergoat]

Atheists scientists think that spirituality is delusional.

It depends on what you mean by spiritual. They certainly don't believe in spirits, but they do acknowledge spirituality in the sense of self-discovery. Sam Harris in fact has written about this.

 

[Mazulu]

“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

I'm not attacking scientists; I'm attacking atheists. Scientists work very hard and are doing the best that can be done with the testable phenomena they have. I have no problem with scientists. It is atheists who cannot elevate a conversation into the light, into something high and beautiful.

 

[Mazulu]

It depends on what you mean by spiritual. They certainly don't believe in spirits, but they do acknowledge spirituality in the sense of self-discovery. Sam Harris in fact has written about this.

You don't have to believe in spirits; but I do.

You picked an interesting person as an example, Sam Harris. Harris is into martial arts (an interesting subject). Harris says, "Harris consistently criticizes Islam, Christianity, and Judaism[citation needed] which he says tend to be monolithic and ready to harm others only for their religion. "

Defending one's religion is like defending one's self, one's family, one's honor, one's good name, one's credit rating. If you're attacked, you don't have to use lethal force if it's not warranted. Religions should be able to defend themselves against the atheist scourge that seeks to defame and ruin all things sacred. I defend religion with words, arguments and occasional insults. Religion is beautiful. Belief in God is beautiful and is worth defending.

 

[(Q)]

Believers believe it was God. Personally, I believe in Spiritualism. I believe there is a spiritual realm inhabited by spirits. Those spirits continue to their religious practices in the spirit world. I believe that the big bang was caused be an event that occurred in the spirit realm.

That is why people like you should never be placed in a position to make decisions in the real world.